177: Be Still My Beating Heart

[anti_strunt]

I never actually said anything about maturity, I think you misunderstood what I meant by "grow up", that was directed at people's response to such games rather than the level of maturity the games themselves have.

Besides that, most entertainment isn't supposed to be mature.

As far as the hentai production is concerned I think it's as varied as any other form of media; you really can't categorise it all with a single sentence, so while your statement is true for some of it, it's completely wrong for a lot of it.

That aside, this particular game seems to be more of a time waster. You can find many similar flash games around the net, which hardly have anything to do with causing arousal.

They're simply there to kill time, with a small sexual twist. Nothing more, nothing less. Nobody in their right mind would let it influence them in any way.

So I really think you're seeing something which isn't there.

Also I think the height of any maturity is finding entertainment in anything you want to find it in, without it effecting your judgement of serious issues.

Personally, I think it's still too right for too much of it, but that's neither here nor there. Although I find this a bit disconcerting:

According to Amazon.com, the game is the best selling pre-order game in Japan, and is more popular than The Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass[2].

There's also still the fact that the girls being sexualised through "light-hearted" molestation are very clearly stated as being between 12 and 15 years of age, which is underage even in Japan.

Hmm. On second thought, better make that extremely disturbing.

..

To put in terms of entertainment-related maturity: I'm perfectly capable of finding the Brass Eye pedophilia special hilarious; a game quite possibly marketed towards actual (or even crypto-) pedophiles less so.

 

[anti_strunt]

As far as the hentai production is concerned I think it's as varied as any other form of media; you really can't categorise it all with a single sentence, so while your statement is true for some of it, it's completely wrong for a lot of it.

The first paragraph is what I was refering to with "Personally, I think it's still too right for too much of it, but that's neither here nor there." That might not have been clear. Anyway, also wanted to post the link to the Brass Eye Paedogeddon Special. Everyone should watch it:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=y7jVnrfoZD8
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=UcnQDYnGtS8&feature=related
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=fA07Tw4iEFw&feature=related
(In three parts.)

 

[Mystery00]

Personally, I think it's still too right for too much of it, but that's neither here nor there.

I'd have to disagree with you on that, but "individual experiences may vary" as they say.

On second thought, better make that extremely disturbing.

I don't find it disturbing, but I definitely couldn't care less about it. It's very difficult to judge the age of "cute" anime characters for one thing, just from a visual standpoint, no matter what their age is written somewhere as.

These kinds of things are really left to the viewer's imagination. You see whatever you want to see.

 

[anti_strunt]

Personally, I think it's still too right for too much of it, but that's neither here nor there.

I'd have to disagree with you on that, but "individual experiences may vary" as they say.

They can indeed, but I'm still very much surprised that anyone could spend time on the Internet and still maintain a positive view of Japanese pornography...

On second thought, better make that extremely disturbing.

I don't find it disturbing, but I definitely couldn't care less about it. It's very difficult to judge the age of "cute" anime characters for one thing, just from a visual standpoint, no matter what their age is written somewhere as.

These kinds of things are really left to the viewer's imagination. You see whatever you want to see.

AH, but that is where you are wrong, kimosabe! I give you the offical character introductions from the official English site:
http://www.dokimajo.com/dkmj01/english/chara.html

Witch suspects
Maho Akai, 14 years old
Maria Abe, 14 years old
Renge Oda, 13 years old
Ayame Midoh, 15 years old
Yuuma Mochizuki, 13 years old (actually a boy, not that that makes it any better)
Merry Watabiki, 12 years old
(There's also a 23 year old nurse, for some reason...)

Irregardless of visual portrayal (and several of the girls don't really look a day over their underage - seriously, check the link), the game is clearly and openly stated as being a game about "touching" underage girls. And it's the most popular Japanese preorder on Amazon. I still say that's very good cause for concern. The fact that the Internet is awash with people clamouring for it to be imported to the west is even worse. The fact that it would probably sell and make a fair profit... sucidial depression wouldn't be an entirely undue reaction.

 

[Mystery00]

AH, but that is where you are wrong, kimosabe! I give you the offical character introductions from the official English site:
http://www.dokimajo.com/dkmj01/english/chara.html

Witch suspects
Maho Akai, 14 years old
Maria Abe, 14 years old
Renge Oda, 13 years old
Ayame Midoh, 15 years old
Yuuma Mochizuki, 13 years old (actually a boy, not that that makes it any better)
Merry Watabiki, 12 years old
(There's also a 23 year old nurse, for some reason...)

Irregardless of visual portrayal (and several of the girls don't really look a day over their underage - seriously, check the link), the game is about clearly and openly stated as being a game touching underage girls. And it's the most popular Japanese preorder on Amazon. I still say that's very good cause for concern. The fact that the Internet is awash with people either clamouring for it to be imported to the west is even worse. The fact that it would probably sell and make a fair profit... sucidial depression wouldn't be an entirely undue reaction.

Well I did say it was regardless of what their age is written as. Visually it can go either way, depending on your perspective.

Also, you do know puberty in girls starts as early as 8, by the age of 14 and up they are supposed to be naturally attractive.

Humans are also predisposed to things such as violence, we have laws against shooting your next door neighbour for waking you up at 4am with loud music for weeks on end, and also against picking up 14 year old girls.

The laws are there to stop people from acting on basic impulse.

As far as violence is concerned, we have video games for example, and as far as this is concerned, we have porn.

What I'm saying is regardless of your personal stance on the issue, it's normal.

And yet, society still functions quite happily, go figure.

 

[PedroSteckecilo]

Oh the wonders of the Japanese and their horrible facination with youth. As I understand it the Asian cultures in general have an odd obsession with youth and attractiveness not unlike our own, yet ending much sooner. As I understand it the "cut off age" in most Asian nations is 25 at which point you are referred to as "Old Christmas Cake". This was a phrase told to me by a good friend of mine who's a Chinese Canadian with a good line on strange Japanese Culture. She also happens to be 27 coming up soon on 28, well past prime marraige age.

My girlfriend likens the Japanese obsession with youth and highschool to their constant time spent their and the fact that once they've finished High School and gone to University they have a soul crushing life of Salaryman Labor to look forward to, it's really not much of an existance. It's very similar to the American attatchment to Highschool, the only difference is that the japanese prefer to animate their highschoolers and have them look closer to their age rather than the American approach of 25 year old Teenagers.

Speaking of which, I'm coming up on 25 and I really don't look like a teenager anymore. Maybe this whole cultural oddity could amount to a fear of aging, or a desire to regain your youthful vigor. Since Videogames and Cartoons are accepted adult pasttimes in Japan one must assume that the only way they can get their "youth" on is by touching underage witches. Regardless, I guess it sucks to get old and not be able to let go of that "Magical Time When I Was Happy," that mindset being the unfortunate byproduct of this soul crushing ambition driven world we live in.

 

[anti_strunt]

Well I did say it was regardless of what their age is written as. Visually it can go either way, depending on your perspective.

Also, you do know puberty in girls starts as early as 8, by the age of 14 and up they are supposed to be naturally attractive.

Humans are also predisposed to things such as violence, we have laws against shooting your next door neighbour for waking you up at 4am with loud music for weeks on end, and also against picking up 14 year old girls.

The laws are there to stop people from acting on basic impulse.

As far as violence is concerned, we have video games for example, and as far as this is concerned, we have porn.

What I'm saying is regardless of your personal stance on the issue, it's normal.

And yet, society still functions quite happily, go figure.

Not sure if linking to images is allowed; it's perfectly Safe For Work, at least.

[http://img139.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dramatispersonaezx3.png]

Did you check the link? Several of the characters, as portrayed, seem to lack any sexual characteristics indicative of puberty what-so-ever. Perhaps I'm just a crazy moralist, but some exceptions I can only see a line of sexualised children. The 12-year-old in the bunny constume is a particularily frightening example. I do not know the touchy-feely specifics of locating her witchmark, but her very presence is... Well, you can probably predict my feelings at this point.

As for the rest of your post: the only conclusion I can see being reached from your arguments is that society functions happily in spite of our natural impulses, that is to say, thanks to our laws against them. I'm not sure that's what you're getting at...

 

[Mystery00]

Did you check the link? Several of the characters, as portrayed, seem to lack any sexual characteristics indicative of puberty what-so-ever. Perhaps I'm just a crazy moralist, but some exceptions I can only see a line of sexualised children. The 12-year-old in the bunny constume is a particularily frightening example. I do not know the touchy-feely specifics of locating her witchmark, but her very presence is... Well, you can probably predict my feelings at this point.

I did have a look, they're very stylised. That's all really, just really stylised cartoon characters.

You see whatever you want to see. I see cartoons, you see children.

 

[anti_strunt]

Did you check the link? Several of the characters, as portrayed, seem to lack any sexual characteristics indicative of puberty what-so-ever. Perhaps I'm just a crazy moralist, but some exceptions I can only see a line of sexualised children. The 12-year-old in the bunny constume is a particularily frightening example. I do not know the touchy-feely specifics of locating her witchmark, but her very presence is... Well, you can probably predict my feelings at this point.

I did have a look, they're very stylised. That's all really, just really stylised cartoon characters.

You see whatever you want to see. I see cartoons, you see children.

Some of which possess stylised sexual characteristics; some of which do not, and are explicitly stated as being of a young age. Both cathegories are involved in pseudosexual petting activities.

Seriously. Are you a diehard relativist, or are you just being contrarian for the sake of it?

Also, didn't answer my question regarding your words on "normalcy" and what's good for society...

 

[Mystery00]

Some of which possess stylised sexual characteristics; some of which do not, and are explicitly stated as being of a young age. Both cathegories are involved in pseudosexual petting activities.

Seriously. Are you a diehard relativist, or are you just being contrarian for the sake of it?

I'm just replying to your posts.

My initial argument didn't even have anything to do with the game per se, just that people have narrow minded responses to such things.

 

[anti_strunt]

Some of which possess stylised sexual characteristics; some of which do not, and are explicitly stated as being of a young age. Both cathegories are involved in pseudosexual petting activities.

Seriously. Are you a diehard relativist, or are you just being contrarian for the sake of it?

I'm just replying to your posts.

My initial argument didn't even have anything to do with the game per se, just that people have narrow minded responses to such things.

To continue on from your works about what works best for society...

Would you say that pedophilistic pornography of the cartoon kind (involving no actual children) provides a valuable service to society by providing the same catharisis a violent action game might? The argument is often raised that such material would "keep them off the streets" as it were.

 

[Mystery00]

Would you say that pedophilistic pornography of the cartoon kind (involving no actual children) provides a valuable service to society by providing the same catharisis a violent action game might? The argument is often raised that such material would "keep them off the streets".

Violent video games have been found to help with anger management, and porn most certainly helps with sexual frustration.

The problem is that these work on people that are not "far gone" so to speak, the predators that we want to be "kept off the streets" are like rapists, murderers, thieves. They're not sane and they're a minority.

I'd say most paedophiles are more or less harmless, they're not about to go stalking kids just like you and I aren't going to go around shooting people, even though I bet everyone has thought about it.

Violent games don't make you and I murderers, and these games aren't going to churn out child predators like factories, but they do provide some sort of relief.

And just to go completely off track, in the future we'll probably be able to stick people into tubes and they can act out all the fantasies they want in the safety of their very own virtual reality. I'd say that might eventually be a "final solution" for people with "strange" tendencies. =P

 

[anti_strunt]

Would you say that pedophilistic pornography of the cartoon kind (involving no actual children) provides a valuable service to society by providing the same catharisis a violent action game might? The argument is often raised that such material would "keep them off the streets".

Violent video games have been found to help with anger management, and porn most certainly helps with sexual frustration.

The problem is that these work on people that are not "far gone" so to speak, the predators that we want to be "kept off the streets" are like rapists, murderers, thieves. They're not sane and they're a minority.

I'd say most paedophiles are more or less harmless, they're not about to go stalking kids just like you and I aren't going to go around shooting people, even though I bet everyone has thought about it.

Violent games don't make you and I murderers, and these games aren't going to churn out child predators like factories, but they do provide some sort of relief.

And just to go completely off track, in the future we'll probably be able to stick people into tubes and they can act out all the fantasies they want in the safety of their very own virtual reality. I'd say that might eventually be a "final solution" for people with "strange" tendencies. =P

So, to cut to the chase somewhat: if this game was somehow objectively "proven" to be paedophilic and pornographic in nature, you wouldn't necessarily deny it the right to exist?

 

[Mystery00]

So, to cut to the chase somewhat: if this game was somehow objectively "proven" to be paedophilic and pornographic in nature, you wouldn't necessarily deny it the right to exist?

Not outright, no. If there was unmistakeable proof that it was somehow detrimental to society, I might be against it, but nothing seems to actually indicate that.

Would you?

 

[anti_strunt]

So, to cut to the chase somewhat: if this game was somehow objectively "proven" to be paedophilic and pornographic in nature, you wouldn't necessarily deny it the right to exist?

Not outright, no. If there was unmistakeable proof that it was somehow detrimental to society, I might be against it, but nothing seems to actually indicate that.

Would you?

My point was rather, if you wouldn't necessarily consider the possiblly paedophilic nature of the game problematic, then why the heck did we just waltz through a largely fruitless debate on the perceived sexual maturity of the characters therein?

 

[Break]

My point was rather, if you wouldn't necessarily consider the possiblly paedophilic nature of the game problematic, then why the heck did we just waltz through a largely fruitless debate on the perceived sexual maturity of the characters therein?

Because people are silly. It's also a fairly spicy topic, so it's not surprising that you might misconstrue an argument or two.

 

[Mystery00]

My point was rather, if you wouldn't necessarily consider the possiblly paedophilic nature of the game problematic, then why the heck did we just waltz through a largely fruitless debate on the perceived sexual maturity of the characters therein?

You brought that up, I was just answering your posts.

 

[anti_strunt]

My point was rather, if you wouldn't necessarily consider the possiblly paedophilic nature of the game problematic, then why the heck did we just waltz through a largely fruitless debate on the perceived sexual maturity of the characters therein?

You brought that up, I was just answering your posts.

You'll excuse me if I feel just the slightest bit led along.

 

[ui264]

I'm sad it's not in America )c:

 

[Ancientgamer]

when I saw the picture on the main page, at first I thought it was Nia from gurren lagann.