Vert said:
insanelich said:
*snipping a whole lot making the reply excessively long*
Before we begin, piracy, in my definiton, means everything from p2p, illegal 'grey market' imports, people on the streets selling CD with 'warez', R4...
I think you may be disagreeing with me because your definition of piracy differs from mine, so don't forget that I include all of the above.
The facts:
- Piracy is rampant in Brazil. The links provided in my article show that, at the very least, this is a fact we can both agree on, right?
- 'Grey market' imports make up 80% of the games market in Brazil. Again, that's in a link of mine.
- These imports are handled mainly by criminal gangs. Now, I freely admit that this isn't based on one news source alone, but on my lifetime experience on hearing the news. I coudl provide with many individual links of cases where pirates where However, if you ask any other brazilian participating in this debate, I think you'll find they agree with this statement. I may be mistaken here, but if I am, then its only in the extent of that criminal gangs are involved and I honestly doubt it.
- Being a part of organized crime, these gangs help spread other types of crime into Brazilian society. This is pretty straight foward if you accept my previous fact.
Now here you don't have me against you.
Vert said:
- The goverment, publishers, developers, manufacturers, importers, retailers all lose out due to piracy. Obviously.
I wouldn't count all of those. I'd count publishers and manufacturers (often the same thing) in the decided losers group. Developers? Given that a game can be 20 meals there, whereas it's four to six in Finland - and close to that in the US. Precious few games would be sold anyway, and after the publisher takes his share, very little would be left for the developers. Heck, most would go into logistics.
Importers and retailers? They don't exist right now, so they aren't exactly in the losers group because of that only. But the same people who'd work for that now can work for something else just as easy, seeing the amount of money not going abroad.
And the government? Taxes? Well, the taxes are outrageous, but at the same time the money isn't going abroad. The government has one more crime problem to deal with, and most of those people would be doing things as bad in any case.
Vert said:
Piracy discourages game development, as the local market presents less oportunities for a developer/publisher to make money first. I'm not saying that this is the only thing stopping brazil from having more game development, but it surely is one of the biggest factors.
Biggest factor for the lack of supply that there isn't a market able nor willing to pay for their products? Whoah, that's real surprising.
Vert said:
Piracy hurts consumers who don't buy pirate games. This is economics 101, if you compare what the market would be like with and without piracy, consumers in the market with piracy pay a higher price for games, as the market has shrunk.
Sorry, looks like you failed Economics 101. Take a look again at the law of supply and demand. A bigger market means that companies can set a greater price for the product. The prices are set at exactly what the market can handle.
Vert said:
Consumers who buy pirate games get some benefit from doing this. This is obvious, as they pay a smaller price.
No disagreement.
Vert said:
Gamers in Brazil are people with above average income. Although piracy has spread out gaming into Brazil, the costs associated with buying a console or a PC are still high enough that I'd be willing to say that most of these consumers have above average income.
Above average income doesn't mean you have plenty of money to spend.
Vert said:
The goverment: only has costs, as it loses taxes revenues and has to use resources to combat piracy and effects associated from it (i.e., other crimes). These resources are taken from the society as a whole.
And in the other case they'd have money bleeding abroad. Claiming the other crime to be funded by piracy is... well, kind of silly. All of the criminal activities organized groups participate in are profitable. The crime would exist anyway.
Vert said:
Non-consumers of games/non-pirates: only has costs, as the goverment ends up increasing taxes on them, there is an increase in crime and, for some, there is a loss in potential employment that would come from having more publishers/developers, importers, retailers...
The money isn't going anywhere. Broken window fallacy. The government is losing money. How much money?
And how much would the market expand given the general state of economy and given their competition? (Hint: Not much.)
Vert said:
Pirates: have large benefits from pirating, with no associated costs.
Don't know about the "large", but no other contest.
Vert said:
Consumers of games that don't pirate: has the same costs as the 'Non-consumers of games', but with the added costs of having to pay higher prices for their games and not having translations into portuguese.
Higher prices because the market is willing to buy less and has more options?
Vert said:
Consumers of games that pirate: have some costs, due to an increase of crime and the lack of translations, but have very large benefits from paying much smaller prices.
Very large?
Vert said:
From this analyses, you can see why I believe that brazilian society as a whole has lost out from having piracy, right? Some parts, the pirates and consumers of pirate products, have large gains, but the rest of the society has even larger costs.
I can see why you believe it but to me it seems a rather subjective view. A whole lot of Brazilians have entertainment they wouldn't have otherwise; at the cost of some increased crime.
Vert said:
Why do I think that this experience with piracy would be closer to that which I believe would happen to other countries such as the US and Japan than the Finish experience? Well, that's a somewhat subjective point of view, but it comes mainly from the following: Other countries that have large populations and large amounts of piracy, such as Russia and China, seem to have an experience that very similar to that of Brazil. This is based on what I've read about these places in magazines and websites. You can also see that other people who've written here seem to share a similar experience.
Aaaand now you have to calculate in the factors that actually mean something. How much more expensive are the games compared to the general costs of living? How widespread is broadband, which pretty much cuts the profits (and thus, harmful crime) out of piracy? Look at Fennoscandia - Finland, Sweden, Norway. A whole lot of piracy. High-tech broadband. No associated side-effects that appear in Brazil and other locations with worse connectivity. Nobody on the streets selling pirated merchandise in Finland.
Vert said:
So, insanelich, I've presented things in a very clear manner. I kindly request that you point out where exactly you disagree with me and why. It's the least you can do after such an extensive post.
Requested and delivered.
EDIT:
And in short:
Piracy isn't going anywhere and legal games wouldn't be bought anyway if it was because games and consoles are simply too expensive for the market.
And the related criminals would not find the market profitable if Brazil had widespread broadband access, because piracy is easy to do at home with very cheap devices once you got actually acquiring the required software down. In US prices, usually outfitting console with a pirate device costs no more than a few hours, a little skill, the warranty and hardware worth roughly the price of one game. PC piracy costs even less.
And to your laughable conclusions? Casual games? Really now?
And MMORPGs can be pirated - Wikipedia [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Server_emulator] provides more information about that.