189: A Nation of Pirates

[Vert]

mercutio22: Well, rationalize it all you want, the bottom line is that you're stealing. And I disagree with you that is the correct thing to do. But, I agree that by using P2P, you are causing less harm to Brazilian society as a whole and, ultimatly, we agree to disagree, so no hard feelings.
Oh, and let me make something clear here: there is room, from an economics standpoint, to debate on whether poorer countries should be allowed to violate copyrights of certain products, the best example being pharmaceutical products, but I'm not convinced the case can be made for games.
By the way, I think you're demonstrating vivadly the sort of mentality I mention in my article. The fact that other countries lack this is one of the key points that has stopped piracy from expanding to even greater heights, in my opinion.

Nanissimov: And you represent the sort of mentality I believe is prevalent in 'developed countries'. As long as the majority of gamers in these markets stick to this sort reasoning, the industry will florish. But, as I say at the end of my article, the current recession is going to make pirate software awfully tempting for a lot of people...

calelogan: thanks for clearing that up! Since I don't have a major console right now, only a DS and intermitent access to a games worthy PC, and have been in this state for more than a year, I haven't been able to keep up with the latest releases and I was unware of the current situation regarding most translations. I was aware, of course, that they continue to be rare, I just didn't know how rare.

Coalhada: I agree with you that the choice of image wasn't the best (the editors of the escapist choose the accompaning images for each article), since, as you correctly point out, the people who'll sell you pirated software don't look like the person in the photo. However, it is an compeling image and I highly doubt that most people will think that brazilians live in 'extreme poverty' from seeing a single image on a videogames magazine. So you're right to complain, but don't overblow it.
Oh, and I don't resent to being compared to a North American, as I sincerly believe that you're just falling for a steriotype. How many North Americans have you met in your life? Have you ever talked to any of them in person? I have and let me tell you a secret: they're people, just like you and me, and they're each individuals with vastly different opinions and beliefs.

urprobablyright: I think you're failling to see the bigger picture here. Western retailers charge so much for legal, expensive games because games have become extremely expensive. After all, game development costs for hardcore games now routinely reach the scale of tens of hundred of dollars and although the industry has expanded thanks to the Wii, these new players aren't the most likely to buy hardcore games.
In short, games are more expensive to make, but the market hasn't grown proportionally, means that games have to be expensive. If people stop paying for hardcore games, companies will stop making them.

 

[insanelich]

Ehh.

Is it just me or is The Escapist grasping at straws here?

I know, I know, editorials benefit from having varying views but eh, rampant moralism just ain't my thing.

 

[Vert]

insanelich: I notice you haven't replied to my argument, that my article is relating what some facts and trying to extend my experience here in Brazil to other countries, and, instead, you have commited the common falacy of simply disqualifying my whole line of reasoning, by calling it 'rampant moralism'.

 

[insanelich]

insanelich: I notice you haven't replied to my argument, that my article is relating what some facts and trying to extend my experience here in Brazil to other countries, and, instead, you have commited the common falacy of simply disqualifying my whole line of reasoning, by calling it 'rampant moralism'.

I don't find you have any valid points to reply to, frankly. Finland's experience - as one of the most high-tech countries out there - with piracy has been uneventful at best. It's accepted as a fact of life and plenty of people do it - and plenty of people don't. Most mix somewhat. Convenience, amount of free time and cost compared to lifestyle expenses seem to have the biggest influence.

And your "facts" reek of, well, rampant moralism. You appear to assume everyone has to share your values, your projections are too laughable to counter and your callings of doom fall on ears that have long, long since learned to tune out doomsayers.

Piracy's been here longer than most of the companies fighting it, and them having enough money to fight it seems to convey it's own message.

 

[mercutio22]

mercutio22: Well, rationalize it all you want, the bottom line is that you're stealing. And I disagree with you that is the correct thing to do. But, I agree that by using P2P, you are causing less harm to Brazilian society as a whole and, ultimatly, we agree to disagree, so no hard feelings.
Oh, and let me make something clear here: there is room, from an economics standpoint, to debate on whether poorer countries should be allowed to violate copyrights of certain products, the best example being pharmaceutical products, but I'm not convinced the case can be made for games.
By the way, I think you're demonstrating vivadly the sort of mentality I mention in my article. The fact that other countries lack this is one of the key points that has stopped piracy from expanding to even greater heights, in my opinion.

I never said stealing was right, I just said you have to take the context to measure right and wrong. You obviously have a problem with that. I agree that stealing is wrong in some circumstances, in others its unfortunate but necessary. Now when I say necessary, I don't mean it in the sense of a survival need, either you do it or you die, but necessary nonetheless. Either you do it or you don't get to play games or you get stolen by the lame game market system. So yeah, lets just disagree. I am tired of rephrasing the meme. You can't move an yota on this one.

The lack-of-piracy-mentality-in-other-countries statement is an empirical one and I challenge you to show your references. I suspect thats just preconception.

 

[shiajun]

I'm from Mexico and the image of the pirate avenue is exactly what you see on a particular avenue in downtown Mexico City. Nothing different at all. Yes, there has been an incredible boom in legal gaming stores and sections in other stores (Blockbuster, for example) in Mexico, most of them in malls. Yes, 360's sell a lot, as do Wiis, and way behind the monstrously expensive PS3. Yet piracy is still running at max settings, even moreso now that the price of everyhting has gone up. What I've come to conclude, however, is that the problem is not just the people here.

Problem one: Price. Even for the most basic of software packages, not even games, the price tags are up in the stratosphere. They are not worth it. I know a lot of people who would rather buy legal software since pirated copies can fail to work, sometimes bring along a friendly virus or trojan, or in some cases the disc you bought isn't the program you thought you were buying. Your risk all of this with pirated software because of the price. You don't feel you're losing out on much if it turns out you got scammed. P2P piracy becomes the alternative for those that know how. I understand games have become terribly expensive to make, but other software tools are not, yet they hover around the same prices. So, when everything costs the same one never stops to think how much was spent to develop each piece of software. Guilt dilutes itself.

Problem two: Distribution is downright laughable, especially for PC. In Mexico, though there has been an increase in legal gaming stores they're exclusively for consoles. PC games and software must be purchased at Office Max, Office Depot or some similar outlet, where everything can fit rather nicely in three or four shelves, usually also besides some console games as well. The prices for PC games, in contrast, are a third or less of what you would pay for a console game, but they are mostly games no one wants to play, or games that are 2 to 3 years old (or more). For example, I wanted to play Tomb Raider Underworld. I wanted the PC version. I went to every single one of the places where I could buy a legal copy. No one had it. This is a high profile game almost a month after its release, not some obscure game from an indie developer. Despite a lot of billboard advertising, the PC version is nowhere to be seen. Aaaah, but who has it? Your local ilegal software distributor. So I'm forced to buy this copy if I ever want to play the game. That was 3 months ago. If I go to any of the stores I mentioned, the PC version of TRU is still not there. This is the publisher's fault for having lousy distribution. I talk of TRU because it was the most recent example of something that has happened to me several times. Many times I end up ordering the game from amazon IF (and there's a big IF) they are allowed to ship games to Mexico. So yeah, sometimes publishers make it impossible to buy legally even if you have the money and the disposition to send profit their way. That's when I pirate out of spite (usually through P2P to avoid dealing with organized crime).

 

[Unicamper]

Ok, I think a lot of you are missing the point here.
Yes, the authors opinion is that Piracy is bad for society.
Yes, he believes you shouldn't do it.
But quite frankly, ask him if he hasn't done it already?
You can bet your a** that he has, just as I have (and will still do, as a p2p enthusiast). BUT! he choose to acknowledge that this does bring severe and several cons to video games market/companies, in a local and a global picture.
I don't believe his essay is moralist! It's down right "easy-going" in my opinion. Being a former video games developer, I can say without a doubt that piracy takes it's toll from the gaming industry. I ended up without a job, for one.
There is simply a choice that each on of us has to be make.

mercutio22: I do beg to differ from you. Being a Brazilian as well, if I had to guess a number, I would say more than 80% of piracy is offline (in other words, on the street, helping organized crime). Think about the favelas (slums for non Portuguese speaking people)... think about all the people with PS2... the broad band network of brazil is still small if you consider the whole country (according to INFO Online 8 million as opposed to 190 million from IBGE)... And come on, take that 8 million and think about how many of these even knows what bit torrent is...
And I'm being generous here. Take a look at the number:
"Abragames estimated in 2004 that no less than 94 percent of the country's games market consisted of pirated merchandise. Similarly, Brazilian internet portal UOL reported in 2006 that the so called 'grey market' of illegally imported products made up 80 percent of Brazil's games market and 94 percent of its console market. "

Lets not be hypocrites here. If you do pirate, than you should know the consequences.
I do and I know.


EDIT: spell check!

 

[Ryan Sumo]

Interesting article. I find it a good counterpoint to my own article or maybe half a year ago, where I argued that publishers need to compete with pirates if they want to see any profit or if they want to truly stamp out piracy.

The truth is that you cannot ignore the economic conditions of the market that you are trying to sell to. In one extreme case that someone pointed out, medicine is finally being sold to developing nations at lower prices than pharmaceutical companies would like. While certainly medicine is a much more serious topic, the underlying sentiment is the same: If you can't afford it, sucks to be you. The result with a lack of affordable medicines is death. The result of a lack of affordable games is boredom...or piracy. People don't like being bored. If you'd like to know more please read (not really a plug, but look at it as additional information):

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_158/5045-Piracy-and-the-Underground-Economy

Pedro, while you have good points and I don't think that you were being moralist, I think the weakness of your article is that you don't really offer a solution other than "man up and buy legal goods". I'm trying to do this myself, having been a game developer for a few years and fully realizing the impact that piracy has on developers. However I find it hard to lecture people who haven't come to the same conclusions I have simply because it makes no economic sense for them to do so.

 

[Corpse XxX]

interesting article.. Well written..

Games are like drugs, everybody needs their daily dose, i will do whatever to get a hold of it..

 

[mercutio22]

mercutio22: I do beg to differ from you. Being a Brazilian as well, if I had to guess a number, I would say more than 80% of piracy is offline (in other words, on the street, helping organized crime). Think about the favelas (slums for non Portuguese speaking people)... think about all the people with PS2... the broad band network of brazil is still small if you consider the whole country (according to INFO Online 8 million as opposed to 190 million from IBGE)... And come on, take that 8 million and think about how many of these even knows what bit torrent is...
And I'm being generous here. Take a look at the number:
"Abragames estimated in 2004 that no less than 94 percent of the country's games market consisted of pirated merchandise. Similarly, Brazilian internet portal UOL reported in 2006 that the so called 'grey market' of illegally imported products made up 80 percent of Brazil's games market and 94 percent of its console market. "

As if I had said otherwise: the statistics are a counter-argument to none of my assertions.

Lets not be hypocrites here. If you do pirate, than you should know the consequences.
I do and I know.

Acknowleged: see for instance post 17, paragraph 2.

 

[rossatdi]

Interesting read, thank you!

Reminds me of the stories my half Korean friend tells of Seoul. I still have his pirated copy of Half Life and Opposing Forces somewhere. The text is printed in Korean and has the CD keys printed onto the top of the disc. Worked perfectly for a long time!

 

[Cousin_IT]

Demand not able to be legitimately satisfied = counterfeit markets. It affects everything from electronics to AIDs medication. Its big business (to the point drugs gangs are turning away from dope to conterfeits coz the profits are better & very light punishments). & in many cases theres nothing the legitimate companies can do because the fakes are coming from the same factories/warehouses etc that make their products. Its a consequence of mass market globalisation & its here to stay.

 

[Vert]

I don't find you have any valid points to reply to, frankly. Finland's experience - as one of the most high-tech countries out there - with piracy has been uneventful at best. It's accepted as a fact of life and plenty of people do it - and plenty of people don't. Most mix somewhat. Convenience, amount of free time and cost compared to lifestyle expenses seem to have the biggest influence.

And your "facts" reek of, well, rampant moralism. You appear to assume everyone has to share your values, your projections are too laughable to counter and your callings of doom fall on ears that have long, long since learned to tune out doomsayers.

Piracy's been here longer than most of the companies fighting it, and them having enough money to fight it seems to convey it's own message.

Again, you're cleverly avoiding the issue here by simply disqualifying my line of reasoning. Let me try to state the facts in a simple manner, then you can simply tell which of these facts are 'rampant moralism' and which aren't. I'll instersect this with my reasoning and finish with my arguments for my projections. Since I disagree with you when you say that I have any 'callings of doom', as I wouldn't say that my article is that pessimistic, I'll just ignore your final argument.

Before we begin, piracy, in my definiton, means everything from p2p, illegal 'grey market' imports, people on the streets selling CD with 'warez', R4...
I think you may be disagreeing with me because your definition of piracy differs from mine, so don't forget that I include all of the above.

The facts:
- Piracy is rampant in Brazil. The links provided in my article show that, at the very least, this is a fact we can both agree on, right?
- 'Grey market' imports make up 80% of the games market in Brazil. Again, that's in a link of mine.
- These imports are handled mainly by criminal gangs. Now, I freely admit that this isn't based on one news source alone, but on my lifetime experience on hearing the news. I coudl provide with many individual links of cases where pirates where However, if you ask any other brazilian participating in this debate, I think you'll find they agree with this statement. I may be mistaken here, but if I am, then its only in the extent of that criminal gangs are involved and I honestly doubt it.
- Being a part of organized crime, these gangs help spread other types of crime into Brazilian society. This is pretty straight foward if you accept my previous fact.
- The goverment, publishers, developers, manufacturers, importers, retailers all lose out due to piracy. Obviously.
- Piracy discourages game development, as the local market presents less oportunities for a developer/publisher to make money first. I'm not saying that this is the only thing stopping brazil from having more game development, but it surely is one of the biggest factors.
- Piracy hurts consumers who don't buy pirate games. This is economics 101, if you compare what the market would be like with and without piracy, consumers in the market with piracy pay a higher price for games, as the market has shrunk.
- Consumers who buy pirate games get some benefit from doing this. This is obvious, as they pay a smaller price.
- Gamers in Brazil are people with above average income. Although piracy has spread out gaming into Brazil, the costs associated with buying a console or a PC are still high enough that I'd be willing to say that most of these consumers have above average income.

So, those are the facts as I see them. I'll now present the costs and benifits from piracy from the perspective of everyone involved:
- The goverment: only has costs, as it loses taxes revenues and has to use resources to combat piracy and effects associated from it (i.e., other crimes). These resources are taken from the society as a whole.
- Non-consumers of games/non-pirates: only has costs, as the goverment ends up increasing taxes on them, there is an increase in crime and, for some, there is a loss in potential employment that would come from having more publishers/developers, importers, retailers...
- Pirates: have large benefits from pirating, with no associated costs.
- Consumers of games that don't pirate: has the same costs as the 'Non-consumers of games', but with the added costs of having to pay higher prices for their games and not having translations into portuguese.
- Consumers of games that pirate: have some costs, due to an increase of crime and the lack of translations, but have very large benefits from paying much smaller prices.

From this analyses, you can see why I believe that brazilian society as a whole has lost out from having piracy, right? Some parts, the pirates and consumers of pirate products, have large gains, but the rest of the society has even larger costs.

Why do I think that this experience with piracy would be closer to that which I believe would happen to other countries such as the US and Japan than the Finish experience? Well, that's a somewhat subjective point of view, but it comes mainly from the following: Other countries that have large populations and large amounts of piracy, such as Russia and China, seem to have an experience that very similar to that of Brazil. This is based on what I've read about these places in magazines and websites. You can also see that other people who've written here seem to share a similar experience.

So, insanelich, I've presented things in a very clear manner. I kindly request that you point out where exactly you disagree with me and why. It's the least you can do after such an extensive post.

 

[trakinas]

I dont have much to add, just that you cannot compare Finland with Brazil. Specially with technology.

Most of what I could say was already said, specially that piracy does hurt the former market - and the moral bounds are in that when you spend money in illegal march you are not paying taxes and as a consequence you are not contributing to the government for investing on public education, public health, infrastructure and all those things taxes were meant for. The trouble is: our politicians are corrupt in the whole majority and is not of their interest to spend a penny on it.


PS.: Im not a 100% favour or against piracy. I think that it will always exist. And to be honest, I do make use of piracy - though downloading from internet and burning them my own.

EDIT:

I also did not like the photo used to illustrate. most of the store owners here in my city are white guys. most of the fatty kind.

 

[Vert]

mercutio22: you're right, it is an opinion of mine. But I base on the following reasoning: Due to the change of media into CD's and DVD's, pirating a game has become much easier and cheaper than ever before. A person can now put a mod chip into their console that'll allow them to play pirate games for the cost of, let's say, 3-4 games. After that, they'll have almost unlimited access to games for almost nothing. Surely that's a massive incentive to pirate for anyone who buys, say, 5 games or more in a year.
If it's so cheap and relativily easy to do, then why hasn't piracy become more prevalent in some countries? I'd say that this is mainly due to three facts:
- More effective policing and anti-piracy actions from their goverment.
- Greater incomes meaning that prices are (relativly) smaller for people in those countries.
- A lack of pirate mentality.
Whew. I guess that we both can't convince one another to change. But, I have to compliment you. Unlike insanelich, you've been contributing to the debate by presenting clear reasoning and discussing things quite openly, which is very rare in a forum debate. So thanks for maintaining a civilized tone and for making a real debate here!
Oh, and I'm sorry if I misrepresented your opinion regarding stealing, that wasn't my intention.

 

[captainwolfos]

These people have clearly never been to a car boot sale.
Stupid people sell obviously pirated games for ridiculous prices at a stall with second hand crap.

 

[Vert]

shiajun: Interesting points. I agree wholeheartly that price and distribution is vital issue in countries where piracy is so big, such as Mexico and Brazil. The problem is that solving these problems go hand to hand with solving piracy, since you can't have a large distribution network, nor reduced prices without a large market, but a large market won't be created without reduced prices and a large distribution network. And a large market can only come about when piracy is resolved.

Unicamper: you pretty much spot-on. In my article, I never raise the issue of how to solve this situation, which would require another, extensive article discussing some issues (some of which I've mentioned here in the forum), as it is a complex issue. But I don't believe that simply saying "piracy is bad so stop" will help, for reasons presented in my rebutal to mercutio22's first post.
Nor do I condemm piracy simply 'because it's wrong' (i.e., for morals), I believe piracy is bad because of my cost benefit analyses of the situation, which I present (in reduced form) in my article, through which I believe Brazilian society as a whole is losing out due piracy.
Also, you're completly right that I have used pirated products in the past, which is where I gathered a lot of my experience with piracy.

Ryan Sumo: the paralels between games and medicine are very justified, as they both present a dificult problem for publishers/drug companies: how can we sell our stuff for a lower price in a poorer country and not have people in that country simply re-sell it to another, richer country? Its a terrible dillema and a very real problem. Case point: Canada and the US.
Canada's health system makes drugs much cheaper there than in the US, which is why a considerable amount of people in the US go to Canada (or receive email offers) to buy cheaper medicine there.
Oh, and I like your article! Interesting proposal you make, and possibly a viable solution to the problem, although the above problem (and some other issues) means it's not a clear cut solution, but an interesting one nevertheless.



And to all those who've complimented me on the article, a big thank you. It's seems to have hit a nerve, which is always a good sign for such a thing!

 

[Vert]

Corpse XxX: surely you jest! =]

rossatdi: oh, there's plenty of pirated products that'll work quite well. But it is a bit of pot-luck, really.

Cousin_IT: I've actually read an article that says something very similar: counterfiting / pirating merchandise has become bigger than drugs trafficing (some 60% bigger, I think). So it's not unreasonable to imagine that former drug gangs would turn to piracy, specially with the lighter punishments involved.

trakinas: yes, our goverment sucks, but surely that means that you should try to make a difference through action, such as protesting against corruption, helping spread support for laws that fight corruption, supporting anti-corruption NGOs... than not paying taxes?

 

[.N.o.M.a.D.]

Brazil seems a separate case, mainly because they pirate due to lack of income.

For the large gaming markets, Generally the people who pirate are those who spend the most money on the gaming industry anyways. Someone with a pirated copy of Crysis probably also has multiple FPS and/or RTS games, many of which are not pirated. Someone with a copy of Wii Fit that their uncle bought them can only boast a Cooking Mama title to add to their collection. Which one helps the industry more?