2019-2020 coronavirus pandemic

Phoenixmgs

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You do realize that when Doctors and nurses actually used HCQ in an attempt to prevent COVID-19, it didn't work don't you?

2nd and 3rd world studies do not hold as much weight because they are often known to lie for profit. You may want to brush up on your history of pharmaceuticals bribing physicians to write good things about them, even when they are not true. The history of pharmaceuticals doing their trials in 2nd and 3rd world nations is pretty bad when you actually look into it. Who does the study, when and where matter here. Often studies are done just to make a profit, and India pharmaceuticals have been making a killing off this. Bribes are cheaper in 2nd and 3rd world nations. They still do bribe western doctors, just the reality is they have to pay them a hell of a lot more.

Years back I actually went into detail about pharma bribing physicians and adding it to the price of the medications, it is really sick tbh when you look at what is really happening here.
You don't read what I'm saying half the time. I never said hydroxy should be used as a prophylaxis, I never said it should be used on hospitalized patients (especially ICU patients). I said it works (especially when combined with a few other things like zinc) on the onset of infection / early infection (1st symptoms). Nothing anyone has posted has shown proof of that not being true. I have no conflict of interests or agendas; if anything I'd want to prove it doesn't work because I don't like Trump. When I do research to find out things, I'm not typing in "coronavirus + hydroxychloroquine + good/effective/whatnot (or vice verse)", I type in nothing but "coronavirus + hydroxychloroquine". I don't want biased results and I'm not just going to look at the 1st couple results (cuz they biased). Then, I actually listen to doctors explaining some of the studies and their opinion on how good/bad the study was because I'm not in the medical field and some of the terminology they know and I don't.

I know there's a lot of shit in BigPharma on a general basis, you may/probably know more details. Hydroxy isn't BigPharma though, it's a generic, there's far more money to be made off stuff like remdesiver and the vaccines being developed than hydroxy. I wouldn't be surprised if Gilead has already made more revenue off remdesivir than the companies producing hydroxy have (during the pandemic). A 5-day dosage of remdesivir cost over $3,000 and that's via the "wholesale" price, hydroxy is less than dollar a pill and there's far more data on hydroxy than remdesivir. I'm well aware doctors are heavily influenced from BigPharma and usually prescribe what they're told/guidelines say (influenced by lobbyists) vs doing their own outside research into studies and everything. Also, there's more money to be made when a patient is hospitalized vs outpatient so finding something cheap that works as outpatient treatment is pretty much not making any money. There's plenty of documented cases in the past where unequivocally dangerous things were allowed to continue due to corporate money.

Do they have prescription medication commercials on television in Sweden? They do here, so now we have tons of patients coming in demanding medications that will not even help them because they " think" they need it now because they see it on TV
In the US, there's ads for drugs that don't even say what they do and just to ask your doctor about because all the happy people in the commercial basically.

I initially started out trying to discuss the actual data with him, but after he told me how he didn't understand it in the first place pages back and told me that he didn't need to understand the data and started posting youtube videos as rebuttals, I am not wasting my time as he isn't even presenting a legitimate discussion in the first place.
The Youtube videos I posted have links to the trials/studies/papers/whatnot that you can read if you don't want to watch the video. The videos are much more digestible to people not in the medical field or specialization needed to fully get the papers on their own, which is the vast majority of people on a gaming forum. That's why I post them. Literally the whole point of learning anything is someone teaching you about the stuff you don't know in a way that is understandable at your current knowledge level.

You've yet to post any non-cherry-picked data whatsoever stating hydroxy doesn't produce at least somewhat effective results in people with early infection of the coronavirus. Here's literally ALL THE STUDIES. Not a single early treatment study of hydroxy has a negative result. Since you're such an "expert", why don't you go into detail on what hydroxy actually does in the body and explain why it wouldn't work against the coronavirus? Because doctors that do know what it does in the body make arguments that make sense as to why it would work.

All of those studies are on hospitalized patients. As you know, I'm not an expert or anything. Isn't it good to usually catch most things early on for various reasons? Why does taking remdesivir for 5 days have better results than 10 days? Just throwing stuff out here that I feel makes logical sense... If hydroxy helps slow down the infection, wouldn't it be buying the immune system time to "figure it out" and develop the proper antibodies? Say if the virus infects 10 cells a day early on (I know the number is super low but just doing it for simplicity) and hydroxy lowers that by even say 20%, isn't that far more effective than when the virus is infecting 100 cells a day and in the lungs already and different parts of the body?

Then we have nothing further to discuss. If you're not willing to engage with the ethics and are only concerned with appearing right, then you're not going to listen to anybody telling you what you don't want to hear.
I don't care about appearing right, I care about what is objectively right. I was against hydroxy early on if you wanna go through my posts.
 
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Agema

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Meaningless. The Great Barrington declaration is not science and medicine, it's political ideology.

This is the product of a US right-wing think tank (which has also engaged in climate change denial, because of course) which has stuck some selective, one-sided facts down, missed a vast gulf of practical application that would be vital, and then persuaded some useful idiots to sign it as a stamp of approval. Of course the think tank has also hidden its grubby little hands from this, and I'm appalled that the signatories have signed with this affiliation not clearly disclosed.
 

Gethsemani

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Apart from what Agema said, it is also an incredibly nasty way of going about it, since you're throwing everyone that's 65+ or have a chronic disease that puts them at risk under the bus. Those people will have to self isolate, potentially for years, until vaccines can be deployed in enough numbers or the virus subsides on its own, because people like me and you desperately want our lives to return to normal. That's callous.

On top of that, how do they expect nursing homes to minimize staff rotation and only employ staff with acquired immunity? The problem with all kinds of nursing, no matter if we're talking at home, in specialized facilities or in hospitals is that it is very intensive in terms of staff numbers. If you only need 1 nurse and one nursing assistant per shift, you need 6 people every day. And they need days off, so you're realistically looking at 10-12 staff to take care of 3-6 people, depending on how much assistance and aid those people need. And that's without people wanting to take time off, change job etc.. Managing to staff every nursing home with staff with acquired immunity is a pipe dream and will be for a long time, as it'd requires almost every outpatient nurse and nursing aide in the US to have acquired immunity. Similarly, frequent PCR-tests will be spectacularly expensive for very little gain.

Tl dr: We are all in this together and throwing the elderly and at risk people under the bus and forcing them to isolate (and nursing staff to perform an almost Herculean task) so that the rest of us can stop caring about minimizing contagion is both callous and stupid.
 
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Agema

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A key problem here is that many of these signatory academics and health professionals have areas of expertise that are narrow, and they are potentially very opinionated rather than balanced. So they see a small part of the picture potentially very well, but in fact the scientific, medical, societal and systemic implementation of a plan is vast and multi-disciplinary, and they don't get it and see the flaws. Never mind that there is always enough of a wide variation in expert opinion that out of the many, many, many thousands of experts out there, it's easy to post up a few dozen contrary to the consensus. Right wing think tanks surely have lots of experience of that.
 

stroopwafel

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Things pretty bad in Netherlands as well with about 6000 new cases per day. Last weekend there was a church service in the Dutch bible belt with 450 people despite the government urging not more than 30. It's an area full of anti vaxxers who think women's place is 'the home' and that earth was created a few thousand years ago so what can you expect. Youngsters are clubbing in parks and under viaducts. Police rolled up a huge party in a student home full of wasted students who were holed up in the shower, toilet and closet who then got aggressive. A party of medical students was particularly notorious with lots of infections. I see people wearing masks under their noses or on their head(?). Meanwhile some cult is gaining popularity called 'TheVirusTruth' led by some enigmatic hippy. When you ask people 'just don't feel like it anymore'. You really can't make this shit up. xD
 

Buyetyen

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I don't care about appearing right, I care about what is objectively right. I was against hydroxy early on if you wanna go through my posts.
Exactly, you're desperate to appear right. You will change your mind that instant someone tells you what you want to hear.
 
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Phoenixmgs

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Meaningless. The Great Barrington declaration is not science and medicine, it's political ideology.

This is the product of a US right-wing think tank (which has also engaged in climate change denial, because of course) which has stuck some selective, one-sided facts down, missed a vast gulf of practical application that would be vital, and then persuaded some useful idiots to sign it as a stamp of approval. Of course the think tank has also hidden its grubby little hands from this, and I'm appalled that the signatories have signed with this affiliation not clearly disclosed.
What facts have they gotten wrong? There's millions being evicted in the US alone because of the pandemic. There's massive downsides to lockdowns. And, now you have the spikes in many European countries and the deaths are still flat-lining.

Apart from what Agema said, it is also an incredibly nasty way of going about it, since you're throwing everyone that's 65+ or have a chronic disease that puts them at risk under the bus. Those people will have to self isolate, potentially for years, until vaccines can be deployed in enough numbers or the virus subsides on its own, because people like me and you desperately want our lives to return to normal. That's callous.

On top of that, how do they expect nursing homes to minimize staff rotation and only employ staff with acquired immunity? The problem with all kinds of nursing, no matter if we're talking at home, in specialized facilities or in hospitals is that it is very intensive in terms of staff numbers. If you only need 1 nurse and one nursing assistant per shift, you need 6 people every day. And they need days off, so you're realistically looking at 10-12 staff to take care of 3-6 people, depending on how much assistance and aid those people need. And that's without people wanting to take time off, change job etc.. Managing to staff every nursing home with staff with acquired immunity is a pipe dream and will be for a long time, as it'd requires almost every outpatient nurse and nursing aide in the US to have acquired immunity. Similarly, frequent PCR-tests will be spectacularly expensive for very little gain.

Tl dr: We are all in this together and throwing the elderly and at risk people under the bus and forcing them to isolate (and nursing staff to perform an almost Herculean task) so that the rest of us can stop caring about minimizing contagion is both callous and stupid.
It's not throwing anybody under the bus. Lockdowns themselves have very negative impacts too. If locking down for a month or 2 would actually extinguish the virus, then that would be great. But the virus is more widespread than ever with all the lockdown strategies because it's not a viable long-term strat, that's why like every country is opening back up and why cases are spiking as that happens. If it was viable, then sure stay locked down and save every life possible. Unless your country was very smart very early, the virus is working it's way through the whole population anyway. Having schools closed also endangers the vulnerable, how many people have kids that aren't in school being watched by grandparents for example because both parents or single parent have to still work? Opening schools endangers the adults working there but lessens the dangers of grandparents' exposure, which is the worst of the two? Then, many kids depend on school for food and not going to school adversely affects them both nutritionally and socially. There's gives and takes like that with everything. I'd love to see a really thorough pros/cons list of both strategies. Also, this virus isn't going to be around for years.

Exactly, you're desperate to appear right. You will change your mind that instant someone tells you what you want to hear.
I'm more than willing to change my opinion based on new data/facts, which I've done throughout the pandemic. I don't have any "side" that I want to "win", just the side with the most data/evidence.
 

Gethsemani

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It's not throwing anybody under the bus.
It sure is, by virtue of telling the elderly and at risk people to keep stringent self-isolation procedures so that the rest of us can do whatever we like. It is similarly asking the Nursing staff that hasn't had Covid-19 yet to do nothing but eat, sleep and work because they need to self-isolate as to not bring Covid-19 to the nursing homes they work in. These guys are basically saying that the elderly, sick and nursing staff should be suffering extreme lockdown so that the rest of us can stop bothering with minimizing contagion and start spreading the sickness again.

Lockdowns themselves have very negative impacts too. If locking down for a month or 2 would actually extinguish the virus, then that would be great. But the virus is more widespread than ever with all the lockdown strategies because it's not a viable long-term strat, that's why like every country is opening back up and why cases are spiking as that happens. If it was viable, then sure stay locked down and save every life possible. Unless your country was very smart very early, the virus is working it's way through the whole population anyway. Having schools closed also endangers the vulnerable, how many people have kids that aren't in school being watched by grandparents for example because both parents or single parent have to still work? Opening schools endangers the adults working there but lessens the dangers of grandparents' exposure, which is the worst of the two? Then, many kids depend on school for food and not going to school adversely affects them both nutritionally and socially. There's gives and takes like that with everything. I'd love to see a really thorough pros/cons list of both strategies.
It is good that I've never been a lockdown proponent then. I fully support the Swedish strategy of measured restrictions and carefully balancing how open society can be with how to best minimize contagion. Full lockdown was bad from the start and I think everyone is seeing that now. But the idea of Focused Protection is to stop enforcing all quarantine and contagion mitigation efforts for everyone not at risk and increase the quarantine for those at risk (and those working with those at risk, in extension). The solution is not either/or, it is not full lockdown or no restrictions. The solution is to keep as much infrastructure as possible running (schools, workplaces etc.) while minimizing social contacts were people tend to get very close to one another (restaurants, bars, sport events etc.).

Also, this virus isn't going to be around for years.
I love your certainty. Especially since epidemiologists all are wary to give a prediction for how long the virus can be around. Without a vaccine it can be bouncing around for years, especially if it turns out that immunity to it is only temporary or partial. Worst case predictions has Covid-19 being around for half a decade. Which means that any responsible plan for how to deal with the pandemic has to assume that all measures put in place has to be continued for years to come.[/QUOTE]
 

Agema

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What facts have they gotten wrong? There's millions being evicted in the US alone because of the pandemic. There's massive downsides to lockdowns. And, now you have the spikes in many European countries and the deaths are still flat-lining.
It's not what they got wrong, it's what they omitted. This is what think tanks have done from the year dot. They start with ideology, data mine other people's research to select out only what they want other people to see, and bundle it together as a package to market it.

It always look like it makes sense, and it's written up to seem very appealing. But in reality the first and only consideration for all these think tanks is whether the policies they create serve their paymasters: basically, corporations and their shareholders. Literally anyone and everyone else can be thrown under the bus.
 

stroopwafel

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It's not what they got wrong, it's what they omitted. This is what think tanks have done from the year dot. They start with ideology, data mine other people's research to select out only what they want other people to see, and bundle it together as a package to market it.

It always look like it makes sense, and it's written up to seem very appealing. But in reality the first and only consideration for all these think tanks is whether the policies they create serve their paymasters: basically, corporations and their shareholders. Literally anyone and everyone else can be thrown under the bus.
Capitalism demands a blood sacrifice!
 

Chimpzy

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Some relevant news
Ok, sure, a near nonagenarion with a rare blood cancer is not your average person. Still, means contracting it and pulling through is not a guarantee you'll do so again.

Things pretty bad in Netherlands as well with about 6000 new cases per day. Last weekend there was a church service in the Dutch bible belt with 450 people despite the government urging not more than 30. It's an area full of anti vaxxers who think women's place is 'the home' and that earth was created a few thousand years ago so what can you expect. Youngsters are clubbing in parks and under viaducts. Police rolled up a huge party in a student home full of wasted students who were holed up in the shower, toilet and closet who then got aggressive. A party of medical students was particularly notorious with lots of infections. I see people wearing masks under their noses or on their head(?). Meanwhile some cult is gaining popularity called 'TheVirusTruth' led by some enigmatic hippy. When you ask people 'just don't feel like it anymore'. You really can't make this shit up. xD
Pretty much the same down here in Belgium, just with the details remixed a little. I mean, afaik we don't have as many fundamentalist protestants. We do have plenty dumbasses throwing parties tho. We even had a festival last weekend. Supposedly "corona safe". Saw some footage of it. No or improperly worn masks? Check. No distancing? Check. Guess "corona safe" means safe for the virus, not the attendees. And people no longer giving a shit because they don't feel like it, tho that was already a thing back in June.

Anyway, we are also at about 6000 cases a day, tho last sunday we had almost 8000, triple the highest number of infections from back in April. By extension, number of deaths also up, but mortality rate overall down, which is good I suppose. Also, we're no longer the country with the highest deaths per million in the world, having been overtaken by Peru. Hurrah?
 

lil devils x

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Some relevant news
Ok, sure, a near nonagenarion with a rare blood cancer is not your average person. Still, means contracting it and pulling through is not a guarantee you'll do so again.

Pretty much the same down here in Belgium, just with the details remixed a little. I mean, afaik we don't have as many fundamentalist protestants. We do have plenty dumbasses throwing parties tho. We even had a festival last weekend. Supposedly "corona safe". Saw some footage of it. No or improperly worn masks? Check. No distancing? Check. Guess "corona safe" means safe for the virus, not the attendees. And people no longer giving a shit because they don't feel like it, tho that was already a thing back in June.

Anyway, we are also at about 6000 cases a day, tho last sunday we had almost 8000, triple the highest number of infections from back in April. By extension, number of deaths also up, but mortality rate overall down, which is good I suppose. Also, we're no longer the country with the highest deaths per million in the world, having been overtaken by Peru. Hurrah?
Yea, I had read that we have been getting reports that some were becoming more severe the second time than they were the first, EVEN when they were pretty bad the first time. The problem much of the time with this is that you already have existing damage from the first infection, so coming down with it a second time means you pretty much start where you left off on doing even more damage.

That is one of my primary concerns is that if the number of patients we start seeing with reinfection starts to increase, this virus will wear more people down over time. Also people do not have to actually be reinfected with COVID-19 to also lead to their death due to the existing damage making it more difficult for them to recover for the next viral or bacterial infection to come along. The damage from the initial COVID-19 infection can then cause complications causing difficulty in recovering from other diseases. For example, recovering from COVID-19 with damage only to catch the flu and develop pneumonia and die from that later instead. Just having this and recovering at all can impact your ability to survive other diseases and decrease your odds of survival of other conditions later in life as well. It could be a factor impacting your overall lifespan.
 

lil devils x

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I also think it is a misunderstanding to think that " if they didn't have the lockdown the economy would have been better", because the reality is even without the lockdown, people are afraid to go out for their own safety. You have to understand that much of he population has known someone who has suffered from this, lost a loved one or know someone who has died from this. That makes people MORE afraid if this goes unmitigated. People have to feel safe to go to work, to shop, to eat out, because if they do not, they will not. If they had just allowed people to die without doing anything about it, there would be more panic, chaos, death and economic disaster, not less. You heal the economy by getting the virus under control so that people can feel safe to participate in activities again. The fastest way to boost the economy is to adequately suppress the viruses ability to spread. That is where Trump and some other governments failed miserably on their response. If Trump, for example had called a National Emergency to declare a PPE mandate and created enough PPE and disinfectant to provide the general public with an abundance of it while simultaneously providing businesses, state and local governments with the PPE and disinfectant and procedures necessary to combat the virus, the economy would have fared far better because people wouldn't be as afraid that they would become exposed when they go out.

Trump failed to give the people confidence to feel safe for themselves and their loved ones by overlooking that even the most fit and healthy have loved ones they care about who can easily die from this, making everyone afraid, not just the vulnerable. No one wants to know they killed their mother, grandfather, brother, sister because they didn't know they were infected themselves. You cause MORE depression and death by trying to pretend like everything is fine when it is not and people are not able to reconcile with the fact that they were the ones responsible for the deaths of their friends, family and neighbors. You have both the people who are vulnerable that are terrified as well as those who are afraid they will catch it and give it to them. The approach that " life as usual for everyone but the vulnerable" is the worst approach you could take if you really want to repair the economy. That just makes it worse, and everyone feels less safe.
 

Agema

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Capitalism demands a blood sacrifice!
Well, not that far off.

I would argue that these think tanks invariably in opposition to welfare, healthcare and so on advocate a huge amount of human suffering in favour of theoretical faster economic growth. I mean, it's hilarious to read the sudden care for people's mental health from organisations that normally think mental health services shouldn't be readily available (without private $$$) and believe in an economic system where the stress of poverty or threat of poverty motivates people to work harder. These are the people opposed to climate change policies basically because they oppose taxes and limits on the oil industry, and if millions of people lose their homes when the seas rise, that's just their tough shit.

My point being, this stupid and faux-attitude of societal concern from a think tank that cares only about the ability to capitalists to earn money and do with it as they please. They've never cared about people and they never will.

In this case, it's a big "fuck you" to the elderly, healthcare and care workers, who can live in chronic ultra-lockdown whilst everyone else enjoys their lives to the full. Never mind whether it works, do you think these cunts intend to give them recompense for their sacrifice? Maybe they'll pay for some cheap plastic "Thank You" badges, that's the usual sort of level - any empty gesture that doesn't require any real cost or thought.
 

lil devils x

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Well, not that far off.

I would argue that these think tanks invariably in opposition to welfare, healthcare and so on advocate a huge amount of human suffering in favour of theoretical faster economic growth. I mean, it's hilarious to read the sudden care for people's mental health from organisations that normally think mental health services shouldn't be readily available (without private $$$) and believe in an economic system where the stress of poverty or threat of poverty motivates people to work harder. These are the people opposed to climate change policies basically because they oppose taxes and limits on the oil industry, and if millions of people lose their homes when the seas rise, that's just their tough shit.

My point being, this stupid and faux-attitude of societal concern from a think tank that cares only about the ability to capitalists to earn money and do with it as they please. They've never cared about people and they never will.

In this case, it's a big "fuck you" to the elderly, healthcare and care workers, who can live in chronic ultra-lockdown whilst everyone else enjoys their lives to the full. Never mind whether it works, do you think these cunts intend to give them recompense for their sacrifice? Maybe they'll pay for some cheap plastic "Thank You" badges, that's the usual sort of level - any empty gesture that doesn't require any real cost or thought.
TBH, I have a difficult time understanding why anyone would want to actually work in the UK's healthcare system. The way it treats healthcare workers is scary tbh. You see, working in private practice here, I set my own hours, determine my own vacations, If I have something come up, I have a book of people I can call to come in and fill in for me. When I was listening to what some of my friends practicing medicine in the UK go through, I couldn't help but think " why would you let yourself be put through that at all?" If anything, they should be given more leeway and more benefits than working in other nations because you can actually control that on a government level and thus have the combined resources to draw from in order to do so, but instead they treat the workers horrifically instead. That doesn't make much sense to me at all really. I am not seeing why they don't just fund healthcare well and manage it with the workers in mind instead of treating them like second class citizens or something. That has to be impacting quality of care, I don't see how it wouldn't be.
 

Buyetyen

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I'm more than willing to change my opinion based on new data/facts, which I've done throughout the pandemic. I don't have any "side" that I want to "win", just the side with the most data/evidence.
Exactly, you want to be right. You're not willing to listen to dissenting opinions. You have actual scientists telling you where you are mistaken and assume that you know better than them anyway because you read an article. It's a perfect example of Dunning-Krueger. You're unaware of exactly how complicated this shit is and as a result you mistake just how thorough your own knowledge of the topic is or isn't. I'm not saying this to be That Guy, we all do it. You're very certain of the correctness of your opinions, but your certainty is that of a fool. You're over-estimating your own understanding of medicine, biology and epidemiology.
 

stroopwafel

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Well, not that far off.

I would argue that these think tanks invariably in opposition to welfare, healthcare and so on advocate a huge amount of human suffering in favour of theoretical faster economic growth. I mean, it's hilarious to read the sudden care for people's mental health from organisations that normally think mental health services shouldn't be readily available (without private $$$) and believe in an economic system where the stress of poverty or threat of poverty motivates people to work harder. These are the people opposed to climate change policies basically because they oppose taxes and limits on the oil industry, and if millions of people lose their homes when the seas rise, that's just their tough shit.

My point being, this stupid and faux-attitude of societal concern from a think tank that cares only about the ability to capitalists to earn money and do with it as they please. They've never cared about people and they never will.

In this case, it's a big "fuck you" to the elderly, healthcare and care workers, who can live in chronic ultra-lockdown whilst everyone else enjoys their lives to the full. Never mind whether it works, do you think these cunts intend to give them recompense for their sacrifice? Maybe they'll pay for some cheap plastic "Thank You" badges, that's the usual sort of level - any empty gesture that doesn't require any real cost or thought.
There are some ugly, selfish people with dubious motives for sure but I think most just want to meet up with friends, laugh, have fun etc. without worrying about this virus. It's also going on for a long time now seven months and counting. It's not really in the human condition to be vigilant for that kind of duration. Our instincts are more primed for immediate threats. It's now mostly spread by young people and ofcourse the vast majority don't want their parents or grannies infected(or in rare cases get themselves seriously sick) or overwhelm the healthcare system but we also know young people are more impulsive and don't really consider the wider implications. Not really out of ill-intent but just because they're young and full of hormones. The question is how to manage this group and prevent those at-risk from being infected when most infections occur at home.

Personally yeah I also believe out of moral obligation with healthcare workers alone who are doing the hard work and risking their health to help other people you must practice social distancing, avoid busy places, work from home if possible, try and minimize social contacts when infections are particularly high etc. But if people really don't care about others and can party without a guilty conscience I don't know what government policy is effective besides the most draconic ones that cause a lot of collateral damage. This ofcourse also to the detriment of people who mean well and take their responsibility. It's also dumb strategy if you consider Spain that burned it's entire finances with the most draconian lockdown to suppress the rate of infection that immediately flared up again when restrictions eased up.

I also think what contributes to people being 'covid tired' is a general lack of perspective. Chronic uncertainty makes people feel afraid and alone and as a reaction they either bury their head in the sand or the extreme opposite that they consider coronavirus on the same level as a medieval plague. With a degree of caution and carefulness the risks of this virus can be more than minimized but I guess it's just too high to grasp for some people.
 

Agema

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TBH, I have a difficult time understanding why anyone would want to actually work in the UK's healthcare system.
If they're like my wife, because they believe in making people better. In other words, they have an easily exploited desire to do good. There's also a sense of camaraderie in the NHS though, and the fact that private work can be looked down on: a lot of the worse practitioners go private: because they're the sort of people keener on an easier life for more money than doing a good job.

The way it treats healthcare workers is scary tbh. You see, working in private practice here, I set my own hours, determine my own vacations, If I have something come up, I have a book of people I can call to come in and fill in for me. When I was listening to what some of my friends practicing medicine in the UK go through, I couldn't help but think " why would you let yourself be put through that at all?" If anything, they should be given more leeway and more benefits than working in other nations because you can actually control that on a government level and thus have the combined resources to draw from in order to do so, but instead they treat the workers horrifically instead. That doesn't make much sense to me at all really. I am not seeing why they don't just fund healthcare well and manage it with the workers in mind instead of treating them like second class citizens or something. That has to be impacting quality of care, I don't see how it wouldn't be.
Not untrue.

The tension here is that the country as a whole likes the NHS, but doesn't really want to pay for it. Compared to other EU nations, public healthcare expenditure is quite low - per capita it's about 10-20% less than most equivalent countries like Germany, France, Sweden, Netherlands, etc. The government responds with a mantra of "efficiency", backed up with ferocious right-wing media accusations that public sector workers are lazy. If Marx ever got anything right, it's that profits (or in this case government savings) are made by exploitation of the workers, so NHS workers are squeezed and squeezed for more output. They're reasonably paid, but the work is both very heavy and often very stressful because of under-resourcing.

And that's the sad thing. You can get all these wankers out there to clap for NHS workers, but you can't get enough of them into a voting booth to back a party that will give them better working conditions.

On the other hand, all of that is part of why the British system does healthcare cheaper than the USA.
 
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