https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61859881
Let's see how long it takes until the liberals court fascists to solidify power.
Let's see how long it takes until the liberals court fascists to solidify power.
2022 French Presidential Election
- Thread starter Silvanus
- Start date
They don't need to - an alliance with the old mainstream right, Les Republicains, will take them comfortably over the threshold. Nor do I think they would form an alliance with RN: liberals might sometimes govern close to the mainstream right, but tend to be very firmly opposed to the far right.
That said, things may change: the Ensemble coalition seems well on its way to moving from centreist to mainstream right. As conservatism increasingly encroaches and takes over from liberalism, all bets are off.
But Islamo Leftist ideology corrupting what have become pseudo progressive ( continental westeren european) movements and parties like an ideological cancer is a fact.
All you need to do is to open your eyes and ears to see and hear it. Pseudo progressives are continuously fighting for retrograde (ultra) conservative muslims and they abandoned their core values in cities with significant muslim communities. Pseudo progressives have given up their fight against sexism, homophobia and transphobia in the name of Conservative and Fundamentalist Islam. Because let's not pretend the many pro Islam fights pseudo progressives are taking are in the interest of moderate and progressive Muslims, instead they are yet another collateral victim of Islamo Leftism.
But coming from Macron's government indeed makes it feel like scapegoating because they aren't really trying to solve the immigration and integration issues. As such shifting the blame of the results of their inaction on academics is indeed partly scapegoating. I also wonder what came out of that minister's claims? Because knowing Macron's flip-flopping it's probably nothing. I mean, even Sarkozy ended up doing nothing despite all his colorful rhetoric.
And on a more up to date topic; in a way the results of the legislative elections may be a good thing. It's quite unlikely Macron will band together with either the populist NUPES or RN leading to a de-facto coalition with LR. This is likely to firmly anchor Macron in the center Right and right now France could use a lot of that.
This is just shouty rhetoric, there's no detail or substance.
How are these progressives "fighting for retrograde conservative Muslims"?
What have they done that leads you to conclude they've "given up the fight against sexism, homophobia and transphobia"?
To take a few: do you think a progressive/moderate muslim cares about wearing a burkini in a public pool? Do you think they care about the ability of women to wear the veil as a state employee? Do you think they care about the fact an animal has to be stunned prior to ritual slaughtering? Do you think they care about renaming the "Christmas Market" to "Winter Market" (and same goes for holidays). No, the only ones who you are attracting with such measures is the conservative core of the community.
As for sexism, homophobia and transphobia. It's quite obvious, first because the above mentioned behaviors which are aimed at accommodating religious conservatism contribute to the spread of said religious conservatism, which has a nasty habit of spreading sexism, homophobia and transphobia. And than there is the obvious blind eye turned to the widespread conservatism and fundamentalism which comes with its fair share of sexism, homophobia and transphobia.
It is no surprise a 13y old trans and her mother got beaten up after the gay pride in Molenbeek. It's also not a surprise that last year during pride week when all rainbow flags were up all the videos circulating around the internet containing insults, flipped middle fingers and vandalized flags had people with a strong Maghreban/Arab accent. There are neighborhoods where many gays don't feel safe showing their homosexuality (holding hands,...) in Brussels and I can assure you these neighborhoods aren't "Christian". And yet I never hear any left wing activist or politician talk about the the problematic presence of these retrograde behaviors in some communities. And when they do they are labelled as populists or fascists by the rest.
Why is it left wing parties always like to act all high and mighty about sexism, homophobia and Transphobia on national TV (which is mainly watched by people who don't have foreign origins) but when campaigning on the ground in Muslims communities these talking points disappear and it's all about giving money, fighting "racism" and defending Islamic conservative traditions? Do you think Left wing parties would still get 90%+ of the votes from the Muslim community in Brussels if they started focusing primarily on equality of men and women, acceptance of homosexuality and transsexualism instead of ignoring these issues?
Let's give another example of the blatant hypocrisy of the pseudo progressive parties/movements: when a strong majority of Turks in Europe vote for an Islamo-Fascist (Erdogan) it's all "ok" and not worth any attention. But when around 20% of people vote for a white neo Fascist party it's full blown panic and everyone on the left is wondering how that's even possible, etc.
Well, the progressive Muslim women arguing about how they should have the freedom the wear their religious garb probably do.
Ah yes, the poor souls who have been sucked into a world of lies and have been convinced defending Islamic Conservatism helps the fight against racism and sexism (somehow). Most progressive women know the social pressure that currently infests certain neighborhoods and communities and they know giving in to religiously conservative demands is just going to bolster that. I mean there are true progressive people/politicians from the center and left who have already denounced this total retreat in front of religious conservatism and observed how young women are continuously facing social pressure and even harassment to conform to conservative demands.
Another fun fact: why do you think that left wing and centrist parties have a nasty tendency of attracting Grey Wolves in their midst? You'd think (Turkish) Fascists and lefties wouldn't mix...
So you're actually irritated because the Democrats aren't... endorsing pointless restrictions/bans on clothing?
!?! I fucking care about that, regardless of religion.
Oh honestly, who fucking gives a toss. Every damn year there's whining about people saying "happy holidays" instead of "happy Christmas", and it has always been a big heap of nothing.
Your bar for "accommodating religious conservatism" so far includes... a refusal to implement clothing bans specifically targeting Muslims, and refusing to abandon animal welfare standards. So all perfectly normal, and all having precisely zero impact on spreading hate crime.
The sexism, homophobia, and transphobia you've highlighted is that which exists in conservative, highly religious communities. But your solution appears to be... just pointless crackdowns on behaviour that has nothing whatsoever to do with the crime in question.
Progressives tend to favour things like hate crime legislation, outreach for funding, and education on the very topics of sexism, homophobia, transphobia. You know, measures which actually do have a positive impact.
Dude, progressives have been open about their antipathy towards Erdogan, and have highlighted the dangers he represents quite a lot.
It'll be interesting to see how well Melanchon block hold together, Macron might be able to pry some of them away and make a government with them rather than republican who probably realize that if they join a coalition they'll just be absorbed. Then again Macron won't be on the ticket next election, so some of them might want to fuse so they can become the new caliph.
Democrats?! What are you talking about. Pointless restrictions? Nono, restrictions already applicable to non-muslims. Pools already restrict which types of bathing suits you can wear and our civil servants were already subjected to a neutrality rule.
So you agree it is important for the animal to be stunned? You agree that a progressive/moderate muslim wouldn't mind it being stunned prior to being "ritually slaughtered". Because socialists, communists and greens voted against a ban on ritual slaughtering without prior stunning. Ironically the same greens and socialists voted in favor of the ban In Wallonia where Islamists do not make up the same proportion of their electorate.
Exactly: who gives a toss. Why go through the efforts to change all these things which are just symbols of our cultural heritage without any further impact? Who do you think such meaningless actions are aimed at?
No, it's refusing to adopt standards of animal welfare. The fact you think conservative Muslims (and Jews for that matter) would fight in favor of prior stunning just further proves your total ignorance on the problem. You don't care at all about what's happening in Islamised neighborhoods and how it's worsening every day because of pro Islamism pseudo progressiveness.
This highly conservative community has managed to represent a majority of the muslim community due to continuous accommodation and appeasement with Islamism. And this all in the name of pseudo progressive anti racist lies. The elements I have brought forward are debates which are occurring (and cannot be disputed) where the left has actively taken the side of religious conservatism. However the obvious worse problem is what happens in the hidden part of the iceberg. But this part is easier for pseudo progressives to lie about and waffle their way out of (hence why I initially omitted them). And that's the continuous obfuscation of just how bad things are in Muslim communities. When they harass or assault women, homosexuals or transsexuals the origins of the offenders is continuously being downplayed and a problem which is much more present in some areas is continuously twisted as a "national" Problem. This allows pseudo progressives to pretend like there is no clear over-representation of toxic behaviors in some communities. And if someone dares to point out the obvious the usual "Racist", "Fascist" or "Islamophobe" lie will be thrown to silence them.
Than we also have the continuous racist propaganda being spread among these communities who are continuously reminded they are poor victims of evil white racists and that's the reason why their lives suck. That sure is going to inspire them to integrate and not further regress in religious conservatism!
Hate crime legislation tends to mainly target white people. And such legislation is also usually cancelled by a total lack of actual punishments being inflicted upon the offenders. This affects all crimes mind you. And guess who seems the be the least eager to invest in law & order (police, justice, prisons, etc.) ?
And education, hah, right now it's islamic extremism that spreads through schools. In France a lot of teachers have testified about really worrying ideologies spreading in schools and about pupils saying Samuel Paty deserved to be decapitated. Schools have lost their authority on problematic pupils, and again a result of anti authoritative left wing policies. Do you really think these problematic schools will teach ultra conservative students respect of the LGBT community? Hah, in Brussels white kids are insulted for bringing ham or candy with pork gelatin at school. in the capital of Europe primary school students basically get bullied for not adhering to conservative islamic norms. That's not normal. And fuck pseudo progressive islamo leftist who try to pretend like everything is fine and the only problem is racist white people not being tolerant enough.
But none seem to find it worrying that for instance in Germany more than 60% of Turks agree with an Islamo Fascist? funny, they do tend to worry about white people voting for white fascists... Sounds like a racist double standard...
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Erdogan is not an Islamofascist. He's relatively Islamist, authoritarian and nationalist, but nothing like so extreme that it justifies that description.
Also, there's a factor that comes in here about perception and distance. A Turk in Germany doesn't have to deal with the actuality of rule under Erdogan, so innumerable frustrations that may occur for day to day life in Turkey don't happen to them and don't factor into their assessment like currency collapse, double-digit inflation, social restrictions, and regular shit-stirring. As a result, their view of Erdogan is completely airbrushed, and divorced from reality.
It wouldn't necessarily be that much different even if they were in Turkey, though, because in practice voters are relatively unaware of much going on in their country. You'll find plenty of Britons making bizarre excuses for Boris Johnson - they've no idea what's really going on. And, you know, Republicans and Trump. Likewise, there was some consternation about the number of young Islamic men who allegedly favoured Shariah law in the UK. Except subsequent studies showed that they have no idea what it really is. A couple of vague notions, but mostly it's just that they thought Shariah was their religion's legal system so they assumed it was the good and pious thing to believe in it without consideration of what it says or does. Or of course, the inevitable polls where 70% of the country want more public services and 70% want tax cuts, because a huge chunk of people just don't quite twig that the two are to some extent mutually contradictory.
This is the reality of the world.
He's close to it. I mean western neo fascists are very far from being as extreme as Fascists from the 20th century as well. That has never prevented anyone from labeling them as such.
Correct, so what's left for them to decide whether or not to vote for Erdogan if not the economic impact his policies has? His socially very conservative and nationalistic drivel.
As you have illustrated here people's ignorance about what politicians actually do and stand for applies to everyone. But yet when white people show their support to far right parties all hell breaks loose. But when Turks vote for someone who's essentially in line with your average western far right in much higher proportions nobody seems to even want to think about what this says about the ideology of said population group. How convenient.
Other example, politicians (all abroad the spectrum except the far right this time) are also worried about westerners being pro Putin and what this says about them (or the information they consume).
Misstype with Democrats. Got several threads open at once, but the argument is the same.
The clothing restrictions at pools in France are illogically restrictive regardless of religion, so I'm totally with the lifting of restrictions. I have a little more sympathy with the civil service face covering rule.
I do indeed agree that it's important for it to be unconscious; any practical mitigation/ limitation of suffering is good with me.
You'll need to link me to the vote in question, because I can't find it.
It's hardly an "effort" to change them. It's a minor little adjustment which ends up being a bit less exclusionary. The people flipping their lids and whining about it changing to religion-neutral language are the ones overreacting.
Jesus, you shifted into personal attacks really quickly, didn't you?
I'm not au fait with French legislation (funnily enough). And the fact is that plenty of Muslims and Jewish people are in favour of prior stunning, including ones you and I might consider "conservative".
Your push to consider all religious people as a single monolithic entity is not my fault.
Is it actually being downplayed?
Or are progressives merely sick of these issues being weaponised to drive racist stereotypes?
Because to be clear: the right-wing never seem to give the slightest shit about homophobia or transphobia... except when they can be used as cudgels to bash Muslims. Marine Le Pen is a prime example of exactly that. And I object to that kind of exploitation absolutely.
Oh, spare me the hysteria.
Depends on the "neo-fascist", really. I think a lot of far right parties are very careful to keep a public persona that's a nice, safe distance from being a bit too fascist. But then, we keep on hearing snippets of what they're saying behind closed doors that get leaked, and in numerous cases of far right parties I think we need to be very careful about how far they really are from fascism. After all, no-one wins votes by going straight into a political struggle saying out loud "Let's murder all the Jews." The Nazis themselves didn't even dare do that.
The line between nationalism and patriotism can be thin. One might point out that perhaps the difference is sometimes the perspective of the viewer. When leaders rattle sabres, for instance, this tends to be viewed as strength by the people of that country and objectionable aggression by everyone else. He is socially conservative, but he's a long, long way from the real Islamofascists, like Al-Qaida, ISIS and the Taliban.
One can point out (see more below) that despite a wide range of corruption and authoritarianism, Erdogan oversaw a long period of economic growth and social and development improvements (health, education, worker rights, etc.) That stuff wins a lot of votes and loyalty, and plenty of that loyalty sticks long term. PiS has done similarly in Poland. These guys aren't just the crude authoritarians and nationalists they can easily be seen as, especially from abroad. They have delivered benefits to a lot of their people in important ways, and their people remember that.
Well they're obviously not voting in Germany then, so it's not much of a problem. If they do start voting for AfD, we'll worry then.
Bear in mind Erdogan started off not that badly. A lot of these people, if they've been in Germany 5-10 years or more, will have had their last experience of Erdogan from when he was considerably more successful and moderate, and will still be viewing him by that measure rather than more recent democratic backsliding, corruption and economic failure.
In much the same way, lots of ex-Thatcherite Britons fucked off to a life in the EU sun (especially Spain) and carried on faithfully voting Tory as ex-pats with little cognisance of what the Tories back home were becoming. Of course, the Tory Party dropped Brexit on them, and royally screwed their overseas beach party. They turned on the party in 2019 en masse for the shit it had inflicted on them, but it was far too late by then.
Funny how these issues only became issues when Islamic conservatives started making a point out of it. But hey why not have civil servants with swastikas. After all fuck neutrality.
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Abattage rituel à Bruxelles: quels députés ont voté pour, contre ou se sont abstenus? (INFOGRAPHIE)
Un vote historique, qui s'annonçait très serré.
www.lalibre.be
Notice how Socialists, Communists (PTB) and Ecolo (french speak greens) voted strongly against the ban and how right wing parties defended animal rights (MR, NVA,...)
In a vacuum you would be right. But things don't happen in a Vacuum. A school calendar cannot contain "christmas holiday" but if X% of pupils are Muslims we switch over to Halal food. Alrighty than.
In this case it's Belgium actually. But the French have very similar debates. I don't push all religious people as a single monolithic entity actually.
I have indeed made it clear I believe there is a group who doesn't mind prior stunning, that was my point. But these are the least conservative ones. So who do you target when you vote against a ban of what amounts to gratuitous animal cruelty? This is especially disgusting coming from the Greens.
Yes it is. You will never hear a pseudo progressive try to narrow the issue to communities or places where it's more prevalent. Unless it's a white community off course. Hence why pseudo progressives have no issues talking shit about ultra conservative christian American for instance.
Ironically they are literally feeding racist stereotypes. By letting the problem rot and extend the stereotype becomes applicable to larger portions of the group and more and more people will start to stereotype the entire group.
Fake news, the continental western European moderate right wing cares a lot.
Again evidence you don't what you're talking about.
I don't really give a shit when it became an issue. The fact remains the restriction is nonsense.
The second sentence there is just idiotic. If you have an actual argument to make, rephrase it.
Yeah, that does piss me off.Abattage rituel à Bruxelles: quels députés ont voté pour, contre ou se sont abstenus? (INFOGRAPHIE)
Un vote historique, qui s'annonçait très serré.
Notice how Socialists, Communists (PTB) and Ecolo (french speak greens) voted strongly against the ban and how right wing parties defended animal rights (MR, NVA,...)
This is a result of convenience, not ideology. Changing words on a calendar is exceptionally easy and doesn't disadvantage anyone.
Belgium, sorry.
You've still clumsily divided the group into two: you imagine that everyone against it is in the "conservative" side, and everyone who doesn't mind it is in the "non-conservative" side. My point was that it's not that straightforward. Some conservative Muslim and Jewish people also don't mind.
Ah, so you're just using "downplaying" to mean "not engaging in religious/ geographic profiling".
Hah! The right doesn't give a solitary shit about the LGBT community. That's true in Belgium and the UK both, bud, sorry to say.
It's evidence you're getting your talking points from right-wing pundits or tabloids.
We had the same rubbish here. Members of UKIP or the BNP moaning about how radicalism is taking over entire schools, entire neighbourhoods, entire towns. And then when those accusations are specifically followed up, it turns out they were just manufacturing outrage, as per usual.
I can't speak for the UK as it has a very peculiar political environment but if you believe that about continental western European moderate right wingers you're way too deep in the rabbit hole. I'd say come back to me once you're not looking to world through a pseudo progressive lens.
Alrighty than, more than two decades of life experience in Brussels, testimonies from friends (from all backgrounds) and family, investigative reporting made by left leaning public broadcasts (which was taken down after accusations of being Nazi propaganda by the one who turned Molenbeek in a terrorist breeding shithole*) are right wing pundits and tabloids now? I would also add investigative reports made by the French public broadcast about their problems in schools, but I guess all those teachers who testified are just right wing pundits.
And to conclude: https://www.wzb.eu/system/files/doc...oup_hostility_among_muslims_and_christian.pdf
Come back to reality.
*for Fairness sake not every neighborhood in Molenbeek sucks and is infested by fundamentalists but still too many do.
You just describe anything you disagree with on the left as "pseudo progressive", huh?
It seems to me you're judging things solely on the Belgian centre-right. Belgium is one of the most LGBT-friendly countries in Europe; its not representative of the European right-wing mainstream. In the UK, France, Germany, and countless other countries, its the right that votes against same-sex marriage, discrimination protections, and same-sex adoptions.
No, they're not right-wing pundits, but you've misrepresented what they actually found/said. They haven't exaggerated it into the hyper-partisan rhetoric you have.
No i describe leftist anti-progressive ideology as pseudo progressive. And unfortunately it's an ideology which has spread like an aggressive cancer among the left in Europe.
I did say "Continental Western European". It is true some right wing parties care less about LGBT's than others. However a constant is that most of them do not wish harm upon the LGBT. And for that there is a constant among a the moderate right. For instance I have my serious doubts about allowing minors to transition but I wouldn't wish any harm upon Trans people and am truly angry when hearing about stories of Trans people being assaulted or harassed. The left will say I am behind the times for the former but will happily obfuscate Trans people are more in physical danger in some areas due to pervasive religious (ultra) conservatism. The irony with it all is that the biggest victim of the left wings policies are progressive women, homosexuals and trans people from these communities. They are probably the most vulnerable minorities and they're being thrown under the bus in the name of a corrupt ideology which only upholds its standards to "The Privileged".
EDIT: Talking about Germany, the chairman of the CDU has changed his mind on adoption among gays and now supports it: https://cne.news/artikel/460-german-cdu-leader-merz-changes-his-mind-about-gay-adoption
See, that's the advantage with the moderate right on the continent, even if they still are archaic on some issues most of them are becoming more and more progressive. It's a positive trend, and that matters a lot. The pseudo progressive left* has been going down the drain for decades now. That trend matters too.
The hyper partisan rhetoric is on your side though. My rhetoric has been proven by experience, testimonies and even the study I linked which clearly shows the Muslim community is very conservative. But hey if you don't consider it a huge problem it's becoming (very) hard for teachers to teach some subjects like Evolution, than ok, fuck science I guess. But the worst testimonies came from teachers who explained the situation was bad for quite some time and has become worse and it's so fucking bad that when they tried to discuss what happened toh Samual Paty they were met with opinions which were mainly against the beheaded teacher. Even most of those who said the beheading was wrong added the little "But he provoked it, he shouldn't have shown that cartoon". If you don't think it's catastrophic teachers have classes which are filled with a majority of pupils who seem to find murder an ok or quasi ok response to showing a cartoon of the prophet during a class about Free Speech than fuck it, I give up.
And that's just individual testimonies given by teachers who dared to testify with blurred faces (because they all also said talking about this in Public is likely to cause reprisals).
Than we learn about a Study that was ordered under Nicolas Sarkozy to assess the state of the schools (including the penetration of islamism) in the "banlieues" aaaand it was thrown in the garbage bin because too problematic. Even the moderate right is complicit with ignoring the problem and letting it rot. I have met too many French who talk about these issues with total resignation "it's too late, how are you even going to fix this problem now?" and prefer to follow the "head in sand" tactic. I say no, it's never too late to acknowledge the issue and act on it.
* With this I mean that pseudo progressive leftists movements/parties are going down the drain not that all leftists are pseudo progressives, luckily some still try to promote actual progressiveness and denounce the desire to run after the ultra conservative Islamic vote.
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