282: I Want It All

Chris Davies

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Mar 17, 2010
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I Want It All

Don't be too concerned if you find yourself constantly hunting for collectibles and achievements while you're gaming - that's just the way you're wired.

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clarissa

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Nov 18, 2010
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"Researchers haven't agreed on whether people who have hobbies are happier and more balanced because they collect things, or they collect things because they're already happier and more balanced. Either way, collecting, from the self assessment standpoint of the collector, is nearly always seen as a positive in life."

That is a very good argument I would use to explain some of my 10 our a day in-game.

Anyway, great article. I like the psychological explanations.
I think that any gamer should think about enjoying everything the game has to offer. Not completing every gap in the game is like reading a book skipping parts or even not finishing it.
From the games I played, I only did not complete one thing in Wild Arms 3, because, despite all my efforts and all my dungeons re-scans, I could not find the last chest to complete the quest (there were hundreds in the game, hidden).
 

Onyx Oblivion

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Sep 9, 2008
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You know...I only started give a shit about collectibles once achievements were linked with them.

And I only started caring about achievements after seeing an online friend with 25k, back when I had 5k. I passed him years ago...Now, I have 87,268 gamerscore.

As I type this, I am in the middle of a Titan mode run in God of War 3 going for a Platinum trophy. I bought my PS3 in August, and have already reached a trophy level of 11, just a few months later.

And I can't tell you why I do this.
 

erbkaiser

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Jun 20, 2009
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That's not to say there isn't a brave new world for publishers to explore here. Crackdown 2 recently launched a demo that allowed players to carry over achievements/points should they buy the game. The same was true of the relationship between the Dead Rising 2 prequel and the full game. As a prime source of consumer incentive, expect to see a lot more innovation and experimentation in this area.
While not exactly points or achievements, some of the Ubisoft game pairs for PS3/PSP allow you to unlock extras if you play both games. One example is how you can use your progress in the PS3 version of Assassin's Creed 2 to unlock stuff for Assassin's Creed Bloodlines on the PSP, and vice versa. If you own and sync both games you not only get free upgrades for Bloodlines, but even new skills -- and on the PS3 end you get the defeated Bloodlines' opponents weapons. I think the POP Forgotten Sands games also allow synching between the platforms.
 

PleasantKenobi

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Great article, I have often compared my love of achievements with stamp collecting in the past.

I find that I must be one of these 'gatherer of knowledge' type of collectors. I have played some rubbish games just so I can get a better understanding of the genre and the medium. Now and again, a smaller aspect of an on the whole 'bad game' might have been worth the play through.

As for collectibles reinforcing the aesthetic/theme, a lot of collectible don't, and it annoys me. Coins in Mario, especially in the newer games seem like an arbritary score system to accompany the gameplay, while other games add completely un-necessary collectible with the aim of improving replayability. Bourne Identity had random passports dotted about the levels that required you to go against the flow and style of the gameplay to find them, often breaking up relatively well designed chase sequences. It is for this reason that I enjoy collectible as an added layer of challenge that is not forced upon the player.

I also love going back over my achievement list and seeing what date and time I finished a particular level or boss. This probably owes a lot to me being quite a nostalgic guy.

Onyx Oblivion said:
Now, I have 87,268 gamerscore.
On a side note, I just noticed that you are literally just below me on the Escapist Gamerscore Leaderboards. : P
 

Lord_Gremlin

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How are trophies "less prestigious"? They came late, and because of that improved and enhanced the system. Levels, different types of trophies, Platinum trophies. Achievement were first and it's just a single number.
 

GonzoGamer

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Madigan admits. "The only exception I can think of was collecting all the feathers in Assassin's Creed 2." And the psychology behind that? "I think running and climbing around in that game was inherently fun."

Yea. I got all the feathers in that game because I really did want to explore every inch of those cities. I would've been climbing all over those places just to see everything anyway. That's one of the reasons I'm not a big achievement trophy fan: it just seems like a way of compelling gamers to play through the less compelling moments/challenges of a game. If the game is good enough, I'll do that anyway, I don't need a trophy.

I like collecting in games but not just for the sake of collecting. If there isn't a good reward, I'll feel gypped.

Like I did after shooting all those pigeons in gta4. That attack chopper was so horribly lame especially when compared to the arsenals I got in San Andreas (or any other gta)

Then again, all I got for collecting those SnowGlobes in Fallout Vegas was a stupid achievement trophy. That was a huge letdown after getting all the stat bonuses for the bobbleheads in Fallout 3.

So I like collecting but only to an end. If sony actually start offering rewards for the trophies like they are rumored to start doing, I'll change my opinion of them but so far they're worthless.
 

xscoot

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Collectibles are a huge thing in games. If I recall correctly, there are a few flash games that parody this mentality by being nothing but big collectathons. "This is the only level" is a game where the goal is to do all 100 achievements, and "Upgrade Complete" is a game that is literally nothing but grinding to level up everything, from the main menu music to unlocking the credits.
 

Dastardly

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Chris Davies said:
I Want It All

Don't be too concerned if you find yourself constantly hunting for collectibles and achievements while you're gaming - that's just the way you're wired.

Read Full Article
I think Madigan is confusing the components of this process: the habitual nature of gaming, and the desire to collect. When he talks about the importance of "random reward schedules," he's getting into the behaviorist idea that, by randomizing the reward schedule rather than making it predictable, you increase the frequency of the behavior.

Compare vending machines and slot machines--you put in money, pull a lever, and then.... Well, with the vending machine, you dependably receive a "reward" while the slot machine only rewards you some of the time. Who will pull the lever more frequently? Obviously, it's the person at the vending machine. The reasons for this can be seen touched upon in the "Skinner Box" episode of Extra Credits, but it boils down to several behavioral mechanisms in we, the human.

This is, I believe, separate from a person's desire to collect. While the random reward schedule is perhaps poised to most effectively capitalize on our innate desire to collect, neither explains the other, and both can exist independently. (I imagine, in context, this was the point Madigan was making, but I think perhaps the article just cropped the idea at an awkward place.)

The urge to collect speaks to our old hunter-gatherer roots. You didn't know when your next meal was, so you grabbed anything food-like you could carry. This later developed into making sure you had a worthy collection of weapons and tools, so that you'd be better prepared to handle any given problem that crops up. And then we, as mankind, became collectors of knowledge, so that we'd be equipped for any problem or puzzle that might stand in our way. (This is to say that our innate curiosity or desire to learn may be directly linked to this collection instinct.)

Then you take a brief detour over the Maslow's "Hierarchy of Needs" to see what the hell any of this has to do with gaming, stamps, or what-have-you. According to Maslow, once our basic animal needs are met--food, clothing, shelter, and safety--we move up to other, less concrete needs. The need to belong, for instance. People who have basic needs unmet tend not to preoccupy themselves with needs higher on the hierarchy.

Our instincts are need-fulfilling machines--they are specifically designed and tailored to identify a deficiency and fill it, sometimes preemptively. That is their business. These machines are running non-stop, and that doesn't change just because our basic needs have been met. Once we're fed, clothed, housed, and safe... well... our instincts want to continue doing what they do. To meet this, our brain creates other, less urgent needs.

This could be the "need" to finish that collection of stamps. Or the "need" to have all of the Mario games. Or the "need" to find every little widget in your current game of choice. Satisfying these lesser needs gives us a strange satisfaction that is unexplainable, yet strangely familiar. Getting that last widget somehow wakes that ancient pride of bringing in that prize mastodon that would feed your tribe for a month. It gives us a feeling of power.

Of course, sometimes this process gets interrupted. A person might be unable to fill a more basic need, and in frustration their mind turns to another lesser need as a "substitute." A person who is unable to keep a roof of his head is suddenly taken with collecting bottle caps, as a way of attaining a piece of that primal satisfaction. A way of feeling in control of something. (You can even see this in animals--smaller dogs, frustrated by a lack of any sense of dominance, often harass small children as a way of being the boss of someone.)

The chicken-egg cycle surrounding this (Does a healthy mind lead to collecting, or does collecting lead to a healthy mind?) is probably best answered by the worst kind of non-answer. Both and neither. A healthy person, one whose material and emotional needs are mostly met, will probably tend to collect something as a way of continuing to satisfy the instinctive urge to acquire and prepare. This keeps a steady stream of satisfaction coming, which may tend to make them feel more healthy as a person... which may lead them to collect even more. An unhealthy person may find himself stuck in a shame spiral, feeling downtrodden and powerless, and one of these collections may provide just enough satisfaction to help him turn his outlook around... thus leading him to take charge of a few other things, until such time as he's back on track.

Whichever half starts the process, the two will feed each other in an ongoing cycle, often leading to a feeling of satisfaction and overall mental health. And then the creeping shadows of obsession and addiction creep in... but that's a whole 'nother discussion.
 

BehattedWanderer

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Jun 24, 2009
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Well, they are fun to collect, time and again. There's games where I don't really care for the trophies, though. And there's others where getting the trophies is a matter of MUST, especially games with a high replay value and a way of finding all the little collectibles. Like AC: Brotherhood giving you the location maps available for purchase after randomly finding a certain amount of flags. But, it does pull a sneaky, but putting a few in those secret locations, which means you have to go back and hunt through some of the memories for the sole purpose of flag finding...grr...
 

aldowyn

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Gamerscore is different from other collectibles in one, key way - it massively affects how you are seen and respected by others in your peer group. Your Gamerscore is, essentially, your "Gamer Cred", chronicling your exploits as a gamer and quickly summarizing your experience.

That's far from the only reason, though. We also collect them for the same reasons as any other collectible, or even a few others - like the sheer joy of the challenge of completing a unique or difficult task. I've always preferred the kinds of achievements that have you go out of your way to achieve something, like the "Big Game Hunter" achievement in Mass Effect 2, requiring you to kill the Thresher Maw, to pure grinding or luck-based ones, like the ranking ones in shooters or the max level ones in RPGs (The DA:O ones requiring you to max a certain skill tree are particularly annoying - I'm pretty sure you'd have to complete the game like a dozen times to actually get them all)
 

ItsAPaul

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I specifically try NOT to get achievements, unless they're like the ones in Fallout and you'll end up getting them anyway. The only game I cared about was Mass Effect 2 as far as achievements go, and it didn't make you do 1 million damage to eneimes or something retarded.

Spoiler alert, getting people to play single player games longer makes no sense.
 

TheMadDoctorsCat

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Very, very interesting, and a topic that particularly appeals to me, partly because of my own past experiences.

When I was a lot younger and wiser than I am now, I had a Sega Megadrive (Genesis for our cross-Atlantic cousins) and a copy of Super Street Fighter 2. Having mastered the game beyond any rational point, having seen every possible ending (the best being when you beat the game on the hardest difficulty without losing a single match), I decided to go one step further.

And so, many many MANY months later, I finally did what I'd set out to do - beat "Super Street Fighter 2", on the hardest difficulty with thirty-two straight "Perfects" in a row. Yep, it's possible. Bear in mind that this is the Sega Megadrive we're talking about here, so there's no way to save your progress halfway through. You fight fourteen characters, beat them all, and then accidentally have to block one of Sagat's fireballs in the penultimate round? Tough luck, start again. It happened to me more times than I could list.

(For the record, you can do it with Vega, using only the hard claw strike, by tempting your opponents to walk towards you, then hitting them at maximum range and retreating. If you get the timing perfect, they can't block your strike, even on the hardest difficulty. It's hardest with the projectile-using opponents, for obvious reasons - you just have to get very good at jumping, hitting at the last possible moment, then retreating again. Hardest of all is DeeJay who can counter pretty much every move you can make, Guile whose projectile recovery time is a third of anybody else's, and of course Bison.)

Now you'd think that it would be immensely satisfying to finally accomplish something you'd worked so hard at, but all I felt when I finally did it was a profound emptiness. Of course I was a teenager at the time ("I spent all my time on this, when I could've been making out with girls?") and pretty much decided I'd never do it again.

Fast-forward to two weeks ago (yes, two weeks ago from NOW, one and a half decades after I beat SF2 with 32 perfects in a row.) For only the second time in my life I felt that same emptiness, having just beat "Painkiller" on the hardest difficulty level with every achievement earnt, every secret found. You'd think I'd have grown out of this by now, wouldn't you? What gives?

And what compels us to do these things? There's no material gain involved here. I don't think I'm the kind of person who needs an "escape". I don't regard myself as particularly obsessive in my normal life. Plainly there's no particular satisfaction involved in the accomplishment. There are more worthy and life-affirming challenges, if all I want is for something to test me - not always easy to find in these days of take-away food and motor vehicles. So what drives me?

I also regard myself as being fairly self-aware, but on this one I gotta say I'm stumped. What motivates a person to do that? I'd love to hear your ideas, or the ideas of anybody who's been driven to do this kind of thing themselves.
 

The Random One

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Personally, I think that the worst thing achievements and trophies have done is turning collectibles in an either-or situation. Before it happened, I wouldn't try to pick up all the collectibles, just as much as I could. This way I wouldn't skip tricky collectables, but wouldn't need to go back to pick them up if I missed it. I got 53/100? Cool, I got over half of them. 87/100? Great, I found a lot. 96/100? Wow, that's excellent, I got almost all of them!

Achievements don't care about that. Got 99/100? Yeah well tough look kid. Better comb this drab overworld for a few more hours to see if you get that last collectible. Yeah no thanks. I have better things to do with my time.

I still have this quaint old-fashioned belief that games should be fun (except when they shouldn't, of course) and that completing a task in a game should feel less like work than the work I work at. It's a pretty clear line that has spared me of many a stupid achievement. (The only other place I draw the line is, 'Completing this achievement should not require you to leave the game on for much longer than recommended and leave it overnight'. That's why I don't have the Mega Man buster on the original Dead Rising and probably never will.)

clarissa said:
I think that any gamer should think about enjoying everything the game has to offer. Not completing every gap in the game is like reading a book skipping parts or even not finishing it.
From the games I played, I only did not complete one thing in Wild Arms 3, because, despite all my efforts and all my dungeons re-scans, I could not find the last chest to complete the quest (there were hundreds in the game, hidden).
Do you read the filing information on the back of a book's cover? Or the printing information on its last page (This book was printed on size 10 Helvetica on .5 mm thick paper...)? Because to me, some achievements are just as amusing as that.

If a game gives me an achievement for finding 100 doodads and this achievement is just a little pop-up window that tells me I'm a 'Doodad Seeker', then I don't need to pick up the 100 doodads to see all the game has to offer. I just need to pick up one doodad and get any other achievement. It's the exact same experience.

By comparison, it's too bad I didn't have the patience to collect all the feathers in AC2, since not only was it a cool game, but it also was a sidequest that had a heavy emotional weight attached to it. One day I'll talk about all the tiny things AC2 does right. One day, you'll see. One day.
 

clarissa

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The Random One said:
Do you read the filing information on the back of a book's cover? Or the printing information on its last page (This book was printed on size 10 Helvetica on .5 mm thick paper...)? Because to me, some achievements are just as amusing as that.
If I may, I think you misunderstood me.
The printing information is not something the book has to offer. I am not talking about the physical object, I was thinking about what it represents. Sorry if my example was lame. (What is curious is that many times I caught myself reading this printing information on the book.)
Personally, I am very fond of collecting things in games. Sometimes I do not have patience and get angry eventually, but at least the game has the possibility of collection.


I have not played AC2 yet, but I am planning to. I'll probably grab all the feathers. I am a person who dodged over 300 lightning bolts just to get Lulu`s last weapon on Thunder Plains.
Waste of time? Maybe. After all, I am playing a game.
 

clarissa

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dastardly said:
The urge to collect speaks to our old hunter-gatherer roots. You didn't know when your next meal was, so you grabbed anything food-like you could carry. This later developed into making sure you had a worthy collection of weapons and tools, so that you'd be better prepared to handle any given problem that crops up. And then we, as mankind, became collectors of knowledge, so that we'd be equipped for any problem or puzzle that might stand in our way. (This is to say that our innate curiosity or desire to learn may be directly linked to this collection instinct.)
Very nice comparison. You went deep into the roots and your arguments make sense.
My only question is: this hunter heritage is often more remarkable on men, because in these old times you are speaking of (sorry if I misunderstood) men were the only hunters, right? Women generally stayed "home".

After your reply, I am thinking about how come I have this strong colletor sense...
 

Soylent Dave

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Chris Davies said:
Don't be too concerned if you find yourself constantly hunting for collectibles and achievements while you're gaming - that's just the way you're wired.
I don't think it's just a human urge to collect things; I think a big part of it is the difference between men and women (or boys and girls to be more accurate). I'm going to generalise now, so feel free to be an exception.

Boys tend to want to collect and own things, and boy's toys are definitely designed with this in mind. They're usually a variety of very similar toys from a large range, that the boy will want to own as many of as he can (whether he's "gotta catch 'em all" or just building an army of Transformers, the same principle applies).

A lot of the "nerdier" hobbies are also "boy's hobbies" - train spotting, stamp collecting, tabletop wargaming - and they all involve an awful lot of collecting stuff. They often involve collecting things that don't really matter to the collector - I'm sure plenty of you have owned toys that you didn't really like, but fitted in with your toy collection. Or have mp3s of songs you don't like (and skip every time they show up on shuffle), but deleting them would mean you had *gasp!* fewer tracks in what is basically your mp3 collection.

Even non-nerdy, but traditionally boyish hobbies involve collections - football cards & stickers, getting each year's kit for your favourite sports team etc.

And I can't think of any tabletop wargamer who doesn't have at least one entirely unpainted, unassembled army lying around somewhere - something he's collected, but clearly isn't important enough for him to do anything with.

This is why videogames which are frustrating, or just plain shit, but provide unlockables or achievements (or some other such collectable) are still bought and persevered with by men - we're willing to put up with quite a lot to see our collections (of games, of gamerscore, of bonus tat for TF2...) increase.

Girls on the other hand, while they do get targeted with certain toys that could be (and sometimes are) collected (My Little Pony = Transformers for Girls) don't tend to exhibit the same behaviour.

Instead they tend to focus on a few toys that they really enjoy, and lavish a lot of attention on them - this does involve buying accessories and so on for the toy (so the toy company still wins), but they don't tend to amass the same vast collections of similar crap that boys end up with (and that mums aren't allowed to throw away).

Which probably explains why girls just aren't (generally) as interested in those "nerdy" hobbies - they're about collecting things, which girls haven't been engineered into obsessing over (when and if they discover there's a point to the hobby beyond collecting things, like playing games or painting models or whathaveyou, girls are much more likely to be interested).

This would also explain why videogames targeted at women rarely succeed (developers seem to think girls like collecting ponies and rainbows instead of collecting guns and blood).

Whereas games with an engaging story or quality gameplay are popular with everyone.

(incidentally, I don't think we're "hard-wired" to behave like this - it seems much more likely to be cultural - we still try to turn little girls into wives and mothers, and little boys into bigger boys (with jobs) - and as I said at the start, lots of generalising in there so there are plenty of people who are exceptions (especially as we're trying to move a bit more towards equality of the sexes, which changes the way we raise our kids))


TheMadDoctorsCat said:
you'd think that it would be immensely satisfying to finally accomplish something you'd worked so hard at, but all I felt when I finally did it was a profound emptiness
There's a reason that "May all your dreams come true" is a curse; we're goal driven to the point that having no goal to strive for is like being bereft.

("May all your dreams, but one, come true" is the corresponding blessing)
 

Rack

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How universal are these impulses? Because I'm finding it strange they've never had a hold on me. I'll not even swerve for a collectible that has no benefit and if collectibles aren't inherently fun to gather (by being tied into interesting challenged) I'll only bother if I really want the reward, and even then will resent it.
 

FinalFreak16

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clarissa said:
I am a person who dodged over 300 lightning bolts just to get Lulu`s last weapon on Thunder Plains.
Waste of time? Maybe. After all, I am playing a game.
I'm a massive Final Fantasy fan and even I gave up on that one. I commend you good sir!