A Male on Females on Female Characters
Shamus would love to see more gender diversity in games.
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Shamus would love to see more gender diversity in games.
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A Male on Females on Female Characters
- Thread starter Shamus Young
- Start date
Huh, I have a game idea swirling around in my head at the moment and I suddenly realize... why can't can't my PC be a woman? Why can't it be black or Asian or anything else? There's nothing particularly specific about the admitted currently thin back-story that needs to be of any particular group. As a matter of fact having a female character makes such game ideas more recognizable because they are doing something different.
I've though about the "there pandering here, shame on you" but I admittedly have though less about how to improve that or objectively analyzed my own ideas to diversify them. I know the first thing comes to mind is white male America because I am white male American but maybe there is more value in immediately rejecting that default and instead trying to come up with something else or identify some specific topic to address with the gender/race and seeing if white male really does gain anything.
I think gaming could benefit from such introspective reflections that that rather then take the default (that one dude that has about a billion games about him where he just changes his cloths and hair slightly between each one) and trying to come up with something different and predict how this would alter the story. What if that character was woman, would it change anything? If no, then why not, if yes then does that improve the game? I have to go watch that panel when I get the chance.
Edit: can haz first? really? :O
I've though about the "there pandering here, shame on you" but I admittedly have though less about how to improve that or objectively analyzed my own ideas to diversify them. I know the first thing comes to mind is white male America because I am white male American but maybe there is more value in immediately rejecting that default and instead trying to come up with something else or identify some specific topic to address with the gender/race and seeing if white male really does gain anything.
I think gaming could benefit from such introspective reflections that that rather then take the default (that one dude that has about a billion games about him where he just changes his cloths and hair slightly between each one) and trying to come up with something different and predict how this would alter the story. What if that character was woman, would it change anything? If no, then why not, if yes then does that improve the game? I have to go watch that panel when I get the chance.
Edit: can haz first? really? :O
Here's a rule of thumb for devs: If you couldn't have this character fit anywhere into your game world, and you're not trying to make something cartoony like Ratchet and Clank, you need to reconsider your characterization.
Its not about diversity, its about having real people, rather than stereotypes and charactures. Diversity would follow suit.
Its not about diversity, its about having real people, rather than stereotypes and charactures. Diversity would follow suit.
Funny. Weren't a ton of guys offended by Lisa Foiles' attire when she started off - because they felt that kind of objectification is usually reserved for frat boys and doesn't suit their demography?
Of course, Lisa then later goes wearing a shirt that made everyone want to do the Konami code. Oh, the cheek of that girl...  
Of course, Lisa then later goes wearing a shirt that made everyone want to do the Konami code. Oh, the cheek of that girl...  
Since I game mostly with my partner (who is a woman), we shoot for cooperative games almost exclusively. And a frustrating thing is how few cooperative games actually give you the option of playing a female character. Even when there's no story involved and the developers aren't under the pressure to give you a convincing and uninsulting caricature of womanhood, they often opt just to give us a bunch of 'dudes'. For those that do manage to provide some female options, it's often a case of 1/4 is a woman.
It's gotten to the point where we kind of shy away from such multiplayer/cooperative games that don't provide female options. We had been rather excited for Brink, as an example, and their bragging about the endless options for customizing your character. Then we learned those endless options don't involve being able to pick a female for a list of variously lame reasons. We decided: if they don't care to even try to appeal to us we wont give them our cash.
Although that's no guarantee of success either allowing us female options. We grimaced every time the female characters in Unreal Tournament loudly shouted about how their opponent got beat by a girl and wouldn't let up on the constant similar references from a character that was described in their profile as intelligent.
It's gotten to the point where we kind of shy away from such multiplayer/cooperative games that don't provide female options. We had been rather excited for Brink, as an example, and their bragging about the endless options for customizing your character. Then we learned those endless options don't involve being able to pick a female for a list of variously lame reasons. We decided: if they don't care to even try to appeal to us we wont give them our cash.
Although that's no guarantee of success either allowing us female options. We grimaced every time the female characters in Unreal Tournament loudly shouted about how their opponent got beat by a girl and wouldn't let up on the constant similar references from a character that was described in their profile as intelligent.
I'm one of the strange few that despite being male, enjoys playing as female characters in video games. I can agree that you simply don't see enough of female characters, even in multiplayer modes but there is one case where the addition of females just wouldn't make sense. In the wave of 'realistic' shooters that the AAA industry likes to shove at us, it wouldn't make sense to have women playable since they can't be on the front line as infantry for various reasons.
In my opinion, use female characters when it'll make sense, build them from the ground up and don't just make a male character and decide at the last minute to get the artist working on making him female just to make yourself stand out. Nobody wants diversity if it feels forced.
In my opinion, use female characters when it'll make sense, build them from the ground up and don't just make a male character and decide at the last minute to get the artist working on making him female just to make yourself stand out. Nobody wants diversity if it feels forced.
As a male, I am annoyed by this as well. Why is every single hero of popular games a white male guy? Would it hurt to have the main character be a jamaican woman? An asian guy with a mohawk? Something to add variation from "generic short-haired white dude" would be nice.
To counterbalance the insane amount of male characters, I usually try to pick a female character when given the option (such as Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Fallout, etc.) if only to get the illusion of diversity among video game heroes/heroins.
To counterbalance the insane amount of male characters, I usually try to pick a female character when given the option (such as Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Fallout, etc.) if only to get the illusion of diversity among video game heroes/heroins.
I wonder how big the percentage of female gamers actually is (although it'd be even more interesting to know the figure in the hypothetical situation that more games would be targeted at them). Of the girls/women I know, exactly 0 are interested in gaming. And I have the feeling it doesn't really have anything to do with the usual gender of the protagonists. They just seem put off by the whole idea of sitting in front of a computer and playing. Now of course, the women I know might not be representative of the gender as a whole, so I'm wondering what the actual amount of female interest is.
And although I personally wouldn't mind seeing more games aimed at women, I don't know if it's immediately a sound business strategy to do so. Let's be very generous and say that the male/female gamer ratio is 60:40. It may seem intuitive that the best strategy is to make 60% of games for men and 40% for women (of course there's a middle ground, but I'm simplifying), but the simple fact of the matter is that the optimal (short term) strategy is to aim everything at the majority (search "matching vs maximizing").
On the other hand, if more women (and people in general) could be persuaded to take up gaming, it may very well help building a much bigger target audience to begin with. But that is probably more of a long term thing (i.e. if they'd put a female Hawke on the DA2 box, none of my female friends would have even noticed). I'm not saying this isn't a good time to start tapping into that market and hopefully changing some of the negative views that many people have of gaming. I'm just saying that if you're only looking at the short term (i.e. you want your game to succeed NOW), it might be safer to make a white American space marine game.
And although I personally wouldn't mind seeing more games aimed at women, I don't know if it's immediately a sound business strategy to do so. Let's be very generous and say that the male/female gamer ratio is 60:40. It may seem intuitive that the best strategy is to make 60% of games for men and 40% for women (of course there's a middle ground, but I'm simplifying), but the simple fact of the matter is that the optimal (short term) strategy is to aim everything at the majority (search "matching vs maximizing").
On the other hand, if more women (and people in general) could be persuaded to take up gaming, it may very well help building a much bigger target audience to begin with. But that is probably more of a long term thing (i.e. if they'd put a female Hawke on the DA2 box, none of my female friends would have even noticed). I'm not saying this isn't a good time to start tapping into that market and hopefully changing some of the negative views that many people have of gaming. I'm just saying that if you're only looking at the short term (i.e. you want your game to succeed NOW), it might be safer to make a white American space marine game.
I always think it is funny when someone who isn't directly affected by stereotypes is more offended than the people who are. And then more zealously defend the precised victim. So I chuckled at how Shamus is more offended at sexual pandering than the ladies at the Comic Con.
Other wise I think he makes some valid points.
Other wise I think he makes some valid points.
Wow, got all the way through that without dumping on Miranda. Well, except from the picture. But still, commendable. Especially after spoiler warning.
More on the topic, hell I'd settle for decent characters period. I don't mind all the sexuality or whatever, and I don't care who I play as. I just want to play as someone who's, well someone and not some boring, cardboard cutout of a character.
More on the topic, hell I'd settle for decent characters period. I don't mind all the sexuality or whatever, and I don't care who I play as. I just want to play as someone who's, well someone and not some boring, cardboard cutout of a character.
This is one of many reasons I constantly insist that LucasArts made a colossal mistake by making Revan male (in their canon); the female version of Revan simply has far more potential for depth and exploration than male Revan (and by extension, makes Malak more interesting: a Malak that is jealous of Revan's power is inherently less interesting than a Malak that is jealous of Revan's power AND desirous of her attention). And it's clear that LucasArts simply completely rejected the idea of a deep, interesting Revan; there was an ending, almost completely finished, that ended up on the cutting room floor where a Dark-Side Revan reconciled with Carth, then the both of them went up in flames as the Star Forge exploded - a last minute redemption that didn't end in happily ever after.
It is by far the most interesting and best-written of the endings of KotOR, and it's the one they ended up cutting.
It is by far the most interesting and best-written of the endings of KotOR, and it's the one they ended up cutting.
Personally, yes, I find the lack of female protagonists rather sad, but I must say, I'd rather play as a male space marine than one of those hyper sexualized female counterparts. Why is it that I can only play as a female character in games where gender doesn't matter? People have named Mass Effect and Dragon Age and indeed, these are good games and I'm a fan of both, but your gender doesn't really change anything to the storyline. And if gender is not important for your story, why not make those options a standard? To me, it just sounds like male gamers are taken for beings who are unable to consider a game awesome because its protagonist is a normal female by fear they might not identify with the character.
Is it just me, or does this screenshot show up every single time we discuss something related to women in gaming?Shamus Young said:
Maybe we actually need more obtuse sexualization in gaming so that Shamus can get a more original picture for Page 2.
That said, I totally agree with Shamus about sexualized advertising. That's why I tend to prefer, say, Old Spice's body wash commercials over Axe's body wash commercials. I'd rather buy a body wash that has 15 hours of BO blocking POW-ERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!1!!!1!1 than one that's going to turn me into chocolate and have random chicks taking bites out of my face, or have every woman in my apartment dry-humping the standpipe leading to my shower.
The largest gamer group are women between the ages of 18 and 24.Jordi said:
2/3 of "online" gamers are female.
46% of "game purchasers" are female.
You know the reason you see this guy all the time?
He's a Hollywood leading man. 20-40 years old, white, brownish hair, good looking. He's your Tom Cruise, Kevin Costner, Christian Bale, Leonardo DiCaprio, Matt Damon, Harrison Ford, et-motherfucking-cetera, but unlike the real hollywood male he won't get old and go nuts from drugs.
He's pretty enough that you can put him on a poster, but generic enough that you can throw him into just about any story in any genre and no-one thinks he's out of place.
He's a Hollywood leading man. 20-40 years old, white, brownish hair, good looking. He's your Tom Cruise, Kevin Costner, Christian Bale, Leonardo DiCaprio, Matt Damon, Harrison Ford, et-motherfucking-cetera, but unlike the real hollywood male he won't get old and go nuts from drugs.
He's pretty enough that you can put him on a poster, but generic enough that you can throw him into just about any story in any genre and no-one thinks he's out of place.