Vault101 said:
I tried to play Yakuza 3 once...and the whole time..
"why isnt this a movie?" because thats what it was..it was a movie with gameplay chopped in
not saying japanise games are bad Ive heardly played that many, but personally I find western games generally know how to combine the story and the gameplay
As movies, a lot of Japanese games would make for a lot of fun to watch. As they are, they're just movies you have to pause to do chores every twenty minutes.
ResonanceSD said:
extra credits did a great episode on the difference in cultures, I have to agree with this statement. The reason that western culture is popular is..because it's popular. No one can honestly say that every Final Fantasy has a different storyline.
On the flipside though, every WFPS is essentially the same game (Valve excepted)
And it's not like this trend is going to last. Japan just has to break this mold they've trapped themselves in.
cobra_ky said:
This would be a huge problem if Japanese culture consisted entirely of flashy 2D fighters and nothing else. Fortunately Japanese developers have a couple thousand years' worth of other material to work from.
I played Xenoblade Chronicles last week and it fit just about all of those criteria except for choosing your race/class. For that one, i'd have to point you to pretty much any Turn-Based Strategy game that's ever been released, or failing that, Pokemon.
2D Fighters are just the most... anachronistic example. Games like Final Fantasy have plenty of flash, both in straight light, and in text. They're designed to give off the same kind of bells and whistles that your average casino (or pachinko) slot machine does.
And Japanese developers do have plenty of material to work with, so it's always a bit disconcerting when they toss all that aside to give us another cartoonish fantasy about teenagers fighting Satan, if you can forgive the degree of Yahtzee generalization in that sentence.
Nocturnal Gentleman said:
Completely agree with these points. Also add the endless rehashing that many japanese games tend to do. I stopped playing japanese rpgs and action games in general because the gameplay felt way too similar in series that were eight games or longer. This made the game play feel more archaic with every new game produced.
The same monsters and bosses were used constantly and it made any sort of unique story seem stupid when somehow the exact same monsters challenge me. It gets to the point where you can predict the the enemies, the bosses, and the story arcs. That is not a good thing.
It's not a good thing no matter what culture creates the game.
*Sighs* I miss
Earthbound.
CO_Fimbulvetr said:
Western games are more popular because there's a hell of a lot more people from a western culture. People generally prefer art from their own culture, so it's not like this is surprising by any stretch of the imagination.
I've got nothing against art from Japan. And last I checked Tokyo wasn't exactly short on people. I will agree to a point, but I think was the article is trying to say is that western-style games are getting more and more popular
in Japan with games like Skyrim drawing them in. I think after years of watching their own culture try to adapt foreign concepts to their games, they're welcoming foreign games in as well. I think this is actually a good sign, and one western audiences should be more open to.
Girl With a Dragon Tattoo didn't need an American remake, after all.
CO_Fimbulvetr said:
Being graphically intensive is not really the point of a 2D fighter. "Bright flashes", in the sense of energy beams and hit cues and what not, are there for a reason. IIRC most shooters have muzzle flash implemented, and while firing the flashes make it somewhat harder to see what you're actually shooting at. As opposed to giving you information about the fight. Long story short, 2D fighters are designed primarily for gameplay balance, graphics are an afterthought.
I've always found it more than a little distracting. But then I've always sucked at 2D Fighters; I never had the fingers for the mathematics of combo flow. I don't use the example as a catchall (and if it seems that way then I apologize for misleading) but since the article is referring to Daisuke Ishiwatari, I used the example he used.
CO_Fimbulvetr said:
Falling behind, you say? Hmm, my favourite genre is the Tactical RPG. These games are almost exclusively developed by Japanese companies, the sole example of a good western TRPG is X-COM. Now consider that for a moment. If Japanese games (which is a horrible generalization btw) are 'falling behind', why would the XCOM series essentially die off, and without any other developers trying the genre? Simple: Western gamers do not like the same sorts of games as Japanese gamers do. Rather than falling behind, they're going in their own direction. You are not the target audience.
I liked Jagged Alliance, too.
The Japanese games are flowing in their own direction. I don't care either way; my point (and the point of the article) is that Western games are gaining popularity in
Japan with
Japanese audiences, and its my perspective that the reason for this is their games haven't evolved (outside of graphics) since the early 90's. The best-looking Japanese games feel more like movies, and while you can argue that's a good thing, it doesn't bring much in gameplay. Conversely, games that focus entirely on gameplay over story (such as a 2D fighter) have become so complex that they don't draw in the casual gaming crowds of yesteryear. Nintendo tried to address this and in their mad dash to innovate over improve they've created a niche that is just as alienating to the mainstream as anything else.
Frankly I'm not surprised they've taken to games like Skyrim. Ignoring the graphics or story, you can pick up and play the game with a very small learning curve involved. I can't blame them for just wanting to pick up a game and play it, and I think western games provide that niche they've been missing.
CO_Fimbulvetr said:
Lack of narrative cohesion a is pretty poor argument. Western games suffer from this too. Skyrim may have had an epic story but the narrative kinda falls apart when you go off to pick herbs halfway instead of continuing whatever quest line you were on. The implied tension from other character's behaviour is rather... silly. To be honest I'm not even sure if you're complaining about convoluted stories or gameplay/story segregation, both of which are hardly exclusive to Japanese games. The former depends on what the player can understand or accept as reasonable - completely subjective. The latter isn't necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes people really do just talk and not fight at the same time, which ironically is a complaint levied at Japanese media quite often as well.
When I talk about narrative cohesion, I'm referring to a story plot that is clearly defined, beginning, middle, climax, ending. You might wander off into the woods to collect blue mountain flowers while Ulfric Stormcloak wants you to be killing Imperials in Skyrim, but you know you're supposed to be doing it. You might enter Skyrim
in medias res like every Japanese RPG and it's cousin, but you pick up on the plot of it right away - you're a prisoner of the Imperials and they're gonna execute you. The dragons have returned and you have to do something.
When Japanese RPG's tackle these situations, they can get long-winded fast. Their plots are so convoluted that they can't summarize them all in one cut-scene (or multiple cutscenes, each pushing towards 15 minutes or more in length), or are using an in-setting vocabulary that we can't relate to (the Kingdom of Golhfast fighting the Empire of Bellend in the 900th year of the Vurstharg Calendar). So rather than explain everything, the game is designed to force you forward, performing actions that make sense to the characters but not to you. It's basically telling the player that the plot is none of our business, so we never get a proper handle on what's going on or what's at stake.
I think cultural differences and localization can be blamed for some of this, but not all of it. Even if I had the right cultural perspective and spoke fluent Japanese, I think I would still find myself going cross-eyed through 30-40 minutes of dialogue or text that is trying in vain to explain itself.
CO_Fimbulvetr said:
I'm not even sure where to start with the others, but as mentioned before Xenoblade covers all bar the character design one. And then I'll casually remind you about Dark Souls. And these are hardly the only ones. Typically, a game will lack character customisation when the developer feels that giving each playable character in the story individual traits that extend to their appearance and skills is more important to the story than being able to make your own character. The more diverse your character can possibly be generally means they have a weaker place in the game's universe.
... quick-time events aren't exactly a Japanese thing. And figuring out what your results of character building in games like TES could be is a maths game in and of itself.
... I may have ranted a bit.
TL;DR : You are not the target audience. Expecting you to like them is like expecting you to like My Little Pony. Oh wai-
Maybe Xenoblade does cover the character customization aspect. I haven't played it. As for Dark Souls, I will point out the game is attempting to emulate western RPG's.
It's true, games with customizable main characters can suffer from that "personality black hole" problem. On the other hand, I've yet to meet a JRPG character that has more than a passing, coincidental reason for existing in his own game. Cloud was delusional. Squall only connected through a web of unbelievable coincidence. Zidane is a construct, Tidus was just a hologram... But I digress.
No, I'm not the target audience. But that's my point. The article is referring to western games overshadowing Japanese ones
in Japan. I'm just voicing my opinion on the matter as to why that is.
