Twitter Fights "Occupy" Court Order

Andy Chalk

One Flag, One Fleet, One Cat
Nov 12, 2002
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Twitter Fights "Occupy" Court Order


Twitter is continuing to fight a court order demanding that it turn over tweets and other information related to the Occupy Wall Street protest.

In January [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/115602-Twitter-Subpoenaed-in-Occupy-Wall-Street-Case], Twitter was issued a subpoena by the city of New York calling for "any and all user information, including email address, as well as any and all tweets posted for the period of 9/15/2011 - 12/31/2011" by Malcolm Harris, an Occupy Wall Street protestor facing a disorderly conduct violation. It's not clear why the city would go to all this trouble for such a piddling charge, but Harris claimed that what prosecutors really wanted was to see what he was saying around the date of September 17 "for unrelated reasons."

Twitter's fight against the order hasn't been going very well; it had previously sought to overturn the city's effort to obtain Harris' information without a warrant, but lost that case in July when a judge ruled that people who post on Twitter have no reasonable expectation of privacy. The company is holding firm, however, claiming in a new appeal that Harris' tweets are protected by the Fourth Amendment, which protects against unreasonable searches and seizures, "because the government admits that it cannot publicly access them, thus establishing that Defendant maintains a reasonable expectation of privacy in his communications."

"The fact that the government needs Twitter's assistance to get access to these communications coupled with the fact that the user is explicitly opposing this access contradicts the notion that the user has no reasonable expectation of privacy in these tweets," the appeal states. "If an email is entitled to Constitutional protection but an unavailable Tweet is not, what exactly is the dividing line that will allow citizens to understand when the Constitution protects their communications? It simply cannot be the case that a Tweet that is no longer available or is deleted mere seconds after it was posted is unprotected by the Federal or New York Constitutions, but an email sent to a group of people and never deleted can only be obtained with a search warrant."

"Under the First and Fourth Amendments, we have the right to speak freely on the Internet, safe in the knowledge that the government can't get information about our speech without a warrant and without satisfying First Amendment scrutiny," said Aden Fine, an attorney for the American Civil Liberties Union, which is filing an amicus brief in support of Twitter. "We're hopeful that Twitter's appeal will overturn the criminal court's dangerous decision, and reaffirm that we retain our constitutional rights to speech and privacy online, as well as offline."

It all gets very muddled in a hurry. The idea that people use Twitter with any expectation of privacy is patently ridiculous: We tweet because we want the world to pay attention to us. But by what logic can we applaud the use of Twitter and other social networking tools in uprisings in countries like Egypt and Syria, while at the same time stand idly by as the authorities take steps to chill the same sort of behavior at home?

Source: Wired [http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/08/twitter-appeals-occupy-order/]


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Twilight_guy

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Nov 24, 2008
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So were they subpoenaed or not? If the court has a court order telling them to give information then they should do it. If the court does not, then they are under no obligation. It's really that simple. If the government really has a case then getting a warrant should be easy.
 

NightHawk21

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Twilight_guy said:
So were they subpoenaed or not? If the court has a court order telling them to give information then they should do it. If the court does not, then they are under no obligation. It's really that simple. If the government really has a case then getting a warrant should be easy.
I think they were, but are fighting to not give up the information, for the reasons listed.

IMO the government can piss the hell off from the internet, but that's probably too radical a view to actually take.
 

tmande2nd

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Oct 20, 2010
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You are allowed freedom in America.

Only as long as you DONT step on the toes of the people who paid for the judges, lawyers, politicians, and lobbyists in the land.

But still FREEDOM!
 

Scars Unseen

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May 7, 2009
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Twilight_guy said:
So were they subpoenaed or not? If the court has a court order telling them to give information then they should do it. If the court does not, then they are under no obligation. It's really that simple. If the government really has a case then getting a warrant should be easy.
If the government really had a case, they would have gotten a warrant by now. They don't, so they are trying to argue that a Tweet is considered to be public information even after you delete it so that they can get the information from Twitter without a warrant. Twitter, on the other hand, is arguing that if it was truly public, the court wouldn't need Twitter to do anything because it would be publicly accessible. Since the court cannot view it publicly, it is no more public than an email, which is protected by the 4th amendment and therefore should require a warrant.

And never think for a second that law is ever simple. If it were, people wouldn't get paid so much to argue about it.
 

Eternal_Lament

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I still don't see how a tweet is private speech. It's like talking out loud in public, even if you're speaking to one person it's still being heard by everyone around you. I can see how the tweet being deleted certainly causes the dilemma, but I don't see this as a violation of freedom as others say it is. To use the talking example again, it's not like there's necessarily a confidentiality thing going on here where only Twitter was made aware of the tweet, this is something that many people happened to hear, with Twitter being one of those who "heard" it.
 

Twilight_guy

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Nov 24, 2008
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Scars Unseen said:
Twilight_guy said:
So were they subpoenaed or not? If the court has a court order telling them to give information then they should do it. If the court does not, then they are under no obligation. It's really that simple. If the government really has a case then getting a warrant should be easy.
If the government really had a case, they would have gotten a warrant by now. They don't, so they are trying to argue that a Tweet is considered to be public information even after you delete it so that they can get the information from Twitter without a warrant. Twitter, on the other hand, is arguing that if it was truly public, the court wouldn't need Twitter to do anything because it would be publicly accessible. Since the court cannot view it publicly, it is no more public than an email, which is protected by the 4th amendment and therefore should require a warrant.

And never think for a second that law is ever simple. If it were, people wouldn't get paid so much to argue about it.
Law is simple, it's just that every single case is a corner case.
 

coil

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Scars Unseen said:
If the government really had a case, they would have gotten a warrant by now. They don't, so they are trying to argue that a Tweet is considered to be public information even after you delete it so that they can get the information from Twitter without a warrant. Twitter, on the other hand, is arguing that if it was truly public, the court wouldn't need Twitter to do anything because it would be publicly accessible. Since the court cannot view it publicly, it is no more public than an email, which is protected by the 4th amendment and therefore should require a warrant.

And never think for a second that law is ever simple. If it were, people wouldn't get paid so much to argue about it.
Nailed it.
 

Scars Unseen

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May 7, 2009
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Twilight_guy said:
Scars Unseen said:
Twilight_guy said:
So were they subpoenaed or not? If the court has a court order telling them to give information then they should do it. If the court does not, then they are under no obligation. It's really that simple. If the government really has a case then getting a warrant should be easy.
If the government really had a case, they would have gotten a warrant by now. They don't, so they are trying to argue that a Tweet is considered to be public information even after you delete it so that they can get the information from Twitter without a warrant. Twitter, on the other hand, is arguing that if it was truly public, the court wouldn't need Twitter to do anything because it would be publicly accessible. Since the court cannot view it publicly, it is no more public than an email, which is protected by the 4th amendment and therefore should require a warrant.

And never think for a second that law is ever simple. If it were, people wouldn't get paid so much to argue about it.
Law is simple, it's just that every single case is a corner case.
When law is an amalgam of written laws that can vary by state and established precedent -again, that can vary by state- I would hesitate to consider it simple.
 

theblindedhunter

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Jul 8, 2012
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I have the feeling that Twitter is totally right in this... but it seems to me that it is a sort of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.
If Twitter is forced to reveal the tweets, it is a loss of privacy (I'd say an unreasonable one), because as they say, what then defines public on the internet?
If Twitter can keep the tweet private, however, that means that the deletion of information on the internet may make admissibility in court much more confusing. What happens if someone's makes a statement online, that is used in a trial or similar, and then they delete it in the midst. Destruction of evidence?
 

Eternal_Lament

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Sep 23, 2010
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Deviate said:
It's a matter of the law not having caught up to the mechanics and realities of modern technology. From a purely logical standpoint (and as we all know, law and logic does not mix happily nor easily) a tweet or forum post, chat message or whatever is indeed a public message. However, unlike with your talking out loud example, you can delete a tweet, forum post and so on and so forth. It is no longer public. The fact that they can't access it without Twitter's own help at this point is straight forward proof that the information is quite impossible to currently access through public channels, yeah?

There are hundreds of reasons to protect such deleted messages and information, quite similar to how entities will go to great lengths to recover and suppress information leaked (like trade information, products and other inside information as examples). Being able to protect yourself from accidental mishaps is vital. There's a ton more and it's not even touching upon the very touchy ethical and moral conundrums here.
Okay, how about then say someone posting up a flyer around a neighborhood and then immediately takes them down. Would you consider that private speech even if it is mostly clearly out in public? What if these flyers were handed out to random people in public, wouldn't it be fair to say that even if they stopped giving it out the flyers are still public speech instead of private? I'm not saying there aren't reasons to delete a message or tweet, I'm saying that it's public enough that it doesn't fall under the jurisdiction of confidentiality or private speech.
 

Eternal_Lament

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Sep 23, 2010
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Deviate said:
Perhaps then this is a personal matter we won't be able to get over. I understand why you think this is private speech, but I still think it's public. Even though I'm not a huge fan of Occupy, I can at least appreciate someone who sticks to their guns and stand by what they say instead of cases like this where suddenly they act as if none of it ever happened. Either stick to what you say or don't say it at all.

I can't help wonder how it feels to be an American these days. Those 'Freedoms' have got to start being few and far between now, aren't they?
Wouldn't know, I'm Canadian. Still, I'm pretty sure even despite it's glaring flaws American citizens are no less free then anyone else.
 

90sgamer

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Jan 12, 2012
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I agree with the government on this one. Twitter is a public forum (not to be confused with an internet forum, though an internet forum can too be a public forum). Statements made in a public forum are not private and it is not reasonable to expect that they are private. The email analogy breaks down because email is not public. If there is a long list of recipients then only those recipients will receive the sent email. Widening the scope of a private communication does not make it any less private. Case in point: when the government disseminates a top secret order among several officers pertaining to field activity and strategy, are those orders considered public on the basis that there was a list of recipients? Of course not.

The US supreme court has ruled that garbage set outside a person's home has no expectation of being private. I see deleted or expired tweets being held similarly.

On the other hand I am glad that twitter is fighting it. The government should be questioned at every turn and forced to prove it's right to prosecute any individual.
 

vxicepickxv

Slayer of Bothan Spies
Sep 28, 2008
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What does the City of New York want with an estimated 500 million to 1 billion tweets?

It's not Twitter fighting the city directly, it's the ACLU(American Civil Liberties Union). The ACLU is basically doing this because several lawyers feel that it's in their best interests, to donate their time and money to fight the government in the courtroom in cases they feel would violate some parts of the Constitution.

This trial is actually quite groundbreaking, given that it's the basis for formerly public information. It really is a very weird gray area in all kinds of things. I guess I should pay more attention to it.
 

Arec Balrin

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Feb 26, 2010
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For someone to see your tweets or re-tweets, you must either tweet them with a hashtag or someone must be subscribed to your feed. Either way it is not simply public: someone must opt-in and the tweeter wields a veto on who they can be. The fact that a message can be re-tweeted in the same way that an e-mail can be forwarded to a whole mailing list changes nothing.