And Who, Disguised as Clark Kent
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Just a small error in the article; Superman came out in 1978, not 1976.
Otherwise, great article, and I agree on a lot of the points.
Otherwise, great article, and I agree on a lot of the points.
Reading this I came to realization that the best portrayal of Superman in recent years was Neo in the Matrix films. Ignore the crap inherent to those films, Neo seems to be a Superman analog, with the obvious stuff being how he can fly, has super strength, and is bulletproof in the second and third movie, throw in the whole Messiah/Christ comparison subtext. Neo is killed and returns from the dead, like a certain Blue Boy Scout we know. Not to the mention the fight with Agent Smith in the last film that reminds me of Superman fighting Captain Marvel in Kingdom Come. In Reloaded Link explicitly says "He's doing his Superman thing again." I can't think of clearer way of pointing out the obvious. Throw in Trinity as a Lois Lane analog, Morpheus stading in for Jor-El, with Agent Smith standing in for Zod. For all it's faults, The Matrix trilogy went big for sure, not always in the right directions. Personally I think Superman would do well following that idea without being silly and pretentious
Exactly Bob. All you need is a super powered on atleast an equal level to Superman and have fun throwing each other through buses on into mountains. This is why Superman Returns sucked, nothing happened and that cost $250 million atleast. With all this special effects we have these days surely they could make an awesome movie with amazing stunts and show us things that could only ever be done in a Superman movie.
Also, no more Luthor, sick of him being in the movies. Maybe have him as a secondary villian pulling strings, but have a major strong villian. Bring in Darkseid.
Also, no more Luthor, sick of him being in the movies. Maybe have him as a secondary villian pulling strings, but have a major strong villian. Bring in Darkseid.
I'm just happy to see Superman with a bit of Snyder polish. Just hoping he can keep it thematically simple, last thing we need is an angsty man of steel.
Let's hope he's at least looked through All-Star.
And Bob, repeatedly stating that Amazing Spider-Man was crap isn't going to make it so. Leave the poor film alone, it had a hard production and a dissapointing box office, its gone through alot
Let's hope he's at least looked through All-Star.
And Bob, repeatedly stating that Amazing Spider-Man was crap isn't going to make it so. Leave the poor film alone, it had a hard production and a dissapointing box office, its gone through alot
I think they need to basically just do Superman as well.. Superman. The problem with handling characters like this is they try and "modernize" it too much and in the process wind up ruining the character. The new "metrosexual" superman from the last movie diaster was an attempt to make the character "relevent" in what the dicector/writer thought the real world was like. It was just pathetic in the overall effect it achieved.
The thing they have to remember is that Superman is bigger than life. Especially in starting a new franchise they also need to let him establish his credentials before they start introducing all of these obtuse human angles, constant challenges that are variations on "how will he overcome the Kryptonite this time", or running into things that are massively more powerful than he is. I think even the comics and cartoons fall prey to these problems, and it's part of why I think so many people think Superman kind of sucks especially nowadays. Not just because of his "boy scout" mentality, but because Superman seems to be getting his arse kicked almost 24/7. How powerful something that superman needs help to fight is kind of loses proportion if you don't actually have an appreciation for how powerful Superman is supposed to be. This makes it kind of out of sync in the rare occasions when he does his thing at his full, unopposed, level of power, and easily forgettable when buried among the rest of the junk.
I also think that Superman needs to be understood as a paragon of old school, very basic values. Believe it or not I think an old crossover, Superman with Gen-13 believe it or not, once defined the point of Superman in a few statements, one of the most important I believe is that "Superman is the one thing, you can always rely on". See, no matter how bad things get the point is that Superman always wins, he always saves the day, if he shows up everything is going to be okay. Sure he might get battered, bloody, power sapped, slammed into other dimensions, but in the end he wins, not just for himself, but for everyone, and when it's over everything is okay. I think that's the essence of the character, he's the anti-dark, the anti-angst, the guy that needs to exist for dark, angsty, overly human characters and stories to be compared to. Without guys like "Superman" on the flip side, guys like "Batman" have nothing to really be compared to as being differant. Writers, in all media, who try and make Superman Dark, Angsty, and overly human miss the point, as do those who decide to have him grappling with failure. You do that and he's just another Generation X inspired superhero without much in the way of identity.
The thing they have to remember is that Superman is bigger than life. Especially in starting a new franchise they also need to let him establish his credentials before they start introducing all of these obtuse human angles, constant challenges that are variations on "how will he overcome the Kryptonite this time", or running into things that are massively more powerful than he is. I think even the comics and cartoons fall prey to these problems, and it's part of why I think so many people think Superman kind of sucks especially nowadays. Not just because of his "boy scout" mentality, but because Superman seems to be getting his arse kicked almost 24/7. How powerful something that superman needs help to fight is kind of loses proportion if you don't actually have an appreciation for how powerful Superman is supposed to be. This makes it kind of out of sync in the rare occasions when he does his thing at his full, unopposed, level of power, and easily forgettable when buried among the rest of the junk.
I also think that Superman needs to be understood as a paragon of old school, very basic values. Believe it or not I think an old crossover, Superman with Gen-13 believe it or not, once defined the point of Superman in a few statements, one of the most important I believe is that "Superman is the one thing, you can always rely on". See, no matter how bad things get the point is that Superman always wins, he always saves the day, if he shows up everything is going to be okay. Sure he might get battered, bloody, power sapped, slammed into other dimensions, but in the end he wins, not just for himself, but for everyone, and when it's over everything is okay. I think that's the essence of the character, he's the anti-dark, the anti-angst, the guy that needs to exist for dark, angsty, overly human characters and stories to be compared to. Without guys like "Superman" on the flip side, guys like "Batman" have nothing to really be compared to as being differant. Writers, in all media, who try and make Superman Dark, Angsty, and overly human miss the point, as do those who decide to have him grappling with failure. You do that and he's just another Generation X inspired superhero without much in the way of identity.
Well, that's the easy part actually, using Marvel's trick of teasers showing a rising metaplot after the credits as an obvious hitch would work.Antonio Torrente said:
DC has always been a more over the top universe than Marvel, which has sometimes made their crossovers painful, especially when trying to reconcile the fact that Gotham seems to pretty much exist in an entirely differant universe from say Metropolis, with both pretty much being thinly veiled analogies to New York City.
They pretty much need to come up with some kind of threat that would take more than one hero and build into it, probably having The Justice League being formed similar to "The Avengers". It would be a rip off on a lot of levels, but then again it kind of has to be to capture the essence since your dealing with very similar "super team" material that already gets compared all the time (and Marvel and DC even crossover with each other once in a while when they decide to stop slap fighting).
If I had to pick what they should do, in order to be a bit differant from The Avengers they should probably work on something where the defeated villains and kind of dusted off and "recruited" at the end of the movies. Instead of having one big bad like Loki/Thanos (which would probably be someone like Darkseid in DC), they might try and make things a little differant by having a "Legion Of Doom" type analogy. Have the Justice League form when individual heroes wind up getting gang banged. For the final slugfest they might use the old comics tradition of switching opponents. Have every villain show up perfectly equipped to counter their heroic nemisis in the final slugfest, so you have say Green Lantern take out the dude with all the Kryptonite, while Superman beats down the dude with the yellow power ring (assuming they decide to do a classic green lantern who is powerless against the color yellow).
That's just my thoughts, and the direction I'd be thinking in. Classics are classics because they work.
I think they do need to put some thought into how powerful Superman is, especially if they're going to try to do a Justice League Movie later. I had the opportunity to read the four volume trade that serialized "52" a while back(a weaving of storylines of a year without Superman, Batman, or Wonder Woman in the DC comics universe, not the new post-reboot "52") and at a certain point there was an overlap that looked something like this:
There's an alien race heading towards Earth that destroys worlds!
Oh yeah? Well, there's an extra-dimensional invader threatening who eats entire UNIVERSES!
Meanwhile, John Henry Irons is having trouble with his rebellious niece, and Lex Luthor is conspiring to take over Metropolis.
...
...WHO GIVES A FLYING @#$%?!
Superman can easily get to a point where it's hard to relate his reality to anything in our own. And like any fictional "magic", there's nothing like a story where literally anything can happen to make the audience tune out. I'll confess that Supes has never exactly been my favorite character, though some incarnations have had some interesting takes. But where Superman does work, I tend to think it's not so much "Gods vs. Titans", but either places where he has to make hard decisions that his superpowers don't make any easier (or put him in the position where he's the only one who can make those choices), or where seemingly either-or decisions are revealed to have a whole different dimension when taken on by a superbeing (in part revealing just how different his existence really is from our own.)
There's an alien race heading towards Earth that destroys worlds!
Oh yeah? Well, there's an extra-dimensional invader threatening who eats entire UNIVERSES!
Meanwhile, John Henry Irons is having trouble with his rebellious niece, and Lex Luthor is conspiring to take over Metropolis.
...
...WHO GIVES A FLYING @#$%?!
Superman can easily get to a point where it's hard to relate his reality to anything in our own. And like any fictional "magic", there's nothing like a story where literally anything can happen to make the audience tune out. I'll confess that Supes has never exactly been my favorite character, though some incarnations have had some interesting takes. But where Superman does work, I tend to think it's not so much "Gods vs. Titans", but either places where he has to make hard decisions that his superpowers don't make any easier (or put him in the position where he's the only one who can make those choices), or where seemingly either-or decisions are revealed to have a whole different dimension when taken on by a superbeing (in part revealing just how different his existence really is from our own.)
I think there are several potential dangers with the next Superman movie:
- It tries to be a sequel to Donner's movies. Seriously, that was the worst part of Superman Return. I get it, those movies were good, and Reeve was a beloved actor and person, but did they have to cast an unknown only because he looked like Reeve? Or disguise Kevin Spacey to look like Gene Hackman? Or go so far as to re-use the stupid evil plan of Luthor? Did they have to make him a comic relief, as well as the main villain, while trying to act as a serious threat? Or go so far as to bring Marlon Brando from the grave to replay his role? Everything in that movie talked about nostalgia, and the less they try to stay safe under the shadow the shadow of a 30 years old movie, the better. Unfortunately, I am not a fan of Snyder (his idea of adaptation is closer to "let's use the original as a carbon copy and shoot it frame by frame")...
- Why make it expensive when we can make it marketable The main issue with the Schumacher's Batman, was that it never deviate themselves from being a "kids movie". I have a great deal of respect for good kids movies, being Pixar and Gibli two of my favorite sources of entertainment (despite being on my 20s). This, however, refers to the other side of "kids movies"... the kind that underestimates their audience. The kind that think bright colors and merry tunes work better than good scripts and interesting characters. The kind that sees a movie and think "what can we sell to people from this". Snyder is not known for movies for kids, but he has being scorned before for it and WB has already said Watchmen was the last movie of that kind they where going to produce.
- It tries to be a sequel to Donner's movies. Seriously, that was the worst part of Superman Return. I get it, those movies were good, and Reeve was a beloved actor and person, but did they have to cast an unknown only because he looked like Reeve? Or disguise Kevin Spacey to look like Gene Hackman? Or go so far as to re-use the stupid evil plan of Luthor? Did they have to make him a comic relief, as well as the main villain, while trying to act as a serious threat? Or go so far as to bring Marlon Brando from the grave to replay his role? Everything in that movie talked about nostalgia, and the less they try to stay safe under the shadow the shadow of a 30 years old movie, the better. Unfortunately, I am not a fan of Snyder (his idea of adaptation is closer to "let's use the original as a carbon copy and shoot it frame by frame")...
- Why make it expensive when we can make it marketable The main issue with the Schumacher's Batman, was that it never deviate themselves from being a "kids movie". I have a great deal of respect for good kids movies, being Pixar and Gibli two of my favorite sources of entertainment (despite being on my 20s). This, however, refers to the other side of "kids movies"... the kind that underestimates their audience. The kind that think bright colors and merry tunes work better than good scripts and interesting characters. The kind that sees a movie and think "what can we sell to people from this". Snyder is not known for movies for kids, but he has being scorned before for it and WB has already said Watchmen was the last movie of that kind they where going to produce.
As much as it pains me, because I got into comics because of the Superman films, but I agree with Bob. I think the new film will be better if it ignores the old ones. I don't think they need to go over Superman's origins at length, but they do need to firmly re-establish him.
I also agree about going big, no one reads a Superman comic for the romantic sub-plot. One of the best scenes in Superman Returns was the plane sequence, it was Superman being Superman. Superman fighting Zod and his pals in Superman 2 was great, do it with 21st century effects and it should be freaking awesome. After all, if you can't make a great fight scene out of two guys who can fly, punch holes in mountains and shoot lasers out of their eyes, then you don't deserve to be making films.
I also agree about going big, no one reads a Superman comic for the romantic sub-plot. One of the best scenes in Superman Returns was the plane sequence, it was Superman being Superman. Superman fighting Zod and his pals in Superman 2 was great, do it with 21st century effects and it should be freaking awesome. After all, if you can't make a great fight scene out of two guys who can fly, punch holes in mountains and shoot lasers out of their eyes, then you don't deserve to be making films.
and revisiting Spider-Man's turned out to be a complete disaster.
*Cough* It made over three quarters of a Billion dollars, Bob. It was not in any ways a disaster, and your wishful thinking isn't going to warp reality. Face it, it was a good and popular movie and I am personally glad that they fired Raimi's lame ass. When the men who hold the purse-strings tell you what they want in their movie, you don't fucking sabotage your own production and expect to be kept around for another.
*Cough* It made over three quarters of a Billion dollars, Bob. It was not in any ways a disaster, and your wishful thinking isn't going to warp reality. Face it, it was a good and popular movie and I am personally glad that they fired Raimi's lame ass. When the men who hold the purse-strings tell you what they want in their movie, you don't fucking sabotage your own production and expect to be kept around for another.
A few points:
- When you relaunch a movie series after time has passed on the previous one, you need an origin story. It just seems right for a new audience. So I disagree there.
Also, the Superman Animated Series proved you can have foes that can compete with Superman on a physical level and have it be interesting. The Christpher Reeve-era movies had Lex Luthor, Lex Luthor and Zod, Not-Lex-Luthor, and Lex Luthor and Not-Superman-Clone (oh, and Bryan Singer gives us Lex Luthor AGAIN!) Just like Batman isn't all about the Joker, it'd be nice if they gave us more villains like the Parasite or Toy Man or Darkseid or even Doomsday.
I'm not sure if you agree or disagree on that point, exactly, but that's my two cents on the matter.
- Please don't let this be the start of something ugly, Bob. I don't want to be reading your review of the next Superman movie and then have you wonder why there's so much backlash. You're dissecting this film right now, Bob. People are going to remember. Keep that in mind when you review it.
- Finally, be honest here, Bob. Sucker Punch has a RT rating of 23%. It failed both critically and finacially. Yes, you disagree. You've talked about this at length. But at least acknowledge that your opinion is in the critical minority.
- When you relaunch a movie series after time has passed on the previous one, you need an origin story. It just seems right for a new audience. So I disagree there.
Also, the Superman Animated Series proved you can have foes that can compete with Superman on a physical level and have it be interesting. The Christpher Reeve-era movies had Lex Luthor, Lex Luthor and Zod, Not-Lex-Luthor, and Lex Luthor and Not-Superman-Clone (oh, and Bryan Singer gives us Lex Luthor AGAIN!) Just like Batman isn't all about the Joker, it'd be nice if they gave us more villains like the Parasite or Toy Man or Darkseid or even Doomsday.
I'm not sure if you agree or disagree on that point, exactly, but that's my two cents on the matter.
- Please don't let this be the start of something ugly, Bob. I don't want to be reading your review of the next Superman movie and then have you wonder why there's so much backlash. You're dissecting this film right now, Bob. People are going to remember. Keep that in mind when you review it.
- Finally, be honest here, Bob. Sucker Punch has a RT rating of 23%. It failed both critically and finacially. Yes, you disagree. You've talked about this at length. But at least acknowledge that your opinion is in the critical minority.
1) No more scrawny talentless actors to play a neurotic, borderline Woody Allen-esque Clark Kents and smug, patronizing Supermen who seem to be self-conscious about their nipples poking through their costumes. The animation showed you can have a 6 foot something Clark Kent still seem awkward, well-meaning but naive without being a stereotypical nerd from the 80's.
2) Enough with Lex Luthor. Gene Hackman played Lex as the over the top cartoon character he was in the earliest Superman comics, and it was good for a quick larf, but it started grating around the 30 minute mark of the first movie. Kevin Spacey turned him into a slightly less over the top quietly disturbing villain, but even then he ends up on a beach thinking about eating a small dog.
3) You don't HAVE to copy some popular plotline from the comic books. I would like to see another villain besides Luthor, Darkseid or Doomsday.
2) Enough with Lex Luthor. Gene Hackman played Lex as the over the top cartoon character he was in the earliest Superman comics, and it was good for a quick larf, but it started grating around the 30 minute mark of the first movie. Kevin Spacey turned him into a slightly less over the top quietly disturbing villain, but even then he ends up on a beach thinking about eating a small dog.
3) You don't HAVE to copy some popular plotline from the comic books. I would like to see another villain besides Luthor, Darkseid or Doomsday.
I cannot comment on the movie as I did not see it but you cannot say it made X amount of money so it is good. Final Fantasy XIII sold well but I, like many others, hated it. I know 3 people who went to see Spiderman and hated it.JaredXE said:
But I agree with you about Raimi. Him being gone is a good thing.
That's not a bad train of thought at all. It could be used as a common theme for any movies for any of the other future Justice League members.Therumancer said:
Superman begins with Doomsday somehow being unleashed on the world. (Where did he come from?)
Wonder Woman is faced with the fused spirit of an technological industrialist and Ares-God of War now known as Warmaster. And has to face a plethora of technological menaces. (Given organizational support from where?)
Batman. Having finally quelled the big baddies in Gotham City, Bruce Wayne must now come to the realization that there are dangers out in the world threatening not just Gotham alone. (I can't think of a plot for his movie "re-boot").
Thing is all the above could possibly tie in to a Legion of Doom type organization, but I'm not sure how such an organization could form, or what their goal might be other than Take-over-the-world ®