253: Gamers of the Third World
- Thread starter Michael Thomsen
- Start date
Honestly, AU gamers are a tenacious bunch. I don't think I'd be able to continue with this hobby if every game I wanted to buy was either censored or 200% more expensive than other Western countries.ENKC said:
Do you have any friends in America? You could always work out a deal with them where you send them money to buy the games for you and then they gift the games to your account. It's what I do when something comes out that's not in my region (damn you Rockstar for not extending your Steam license to Japan!).
My opinion on the subject is mixed.
The Third World is what it is for a reason, in my opinion these guys should be spending money on other things, and working on fixing their country, rather than playing video games to begin with. That might seem rather cruel on some levels, but simply put the US and Japan have these kinds of entertainment industries because we've managed to build a society capable of sustaining them.
One also has to look into the govermental and business practices of some of these countries. A few articles have talked about Chinese business laws and the pitfalls companies like Blizzard have had to face to release their product there... in some cases it's not just about money, but also about the system the country is operating under, and how easy it is to do business in that part of the world.
Truthfully video games are not a major concern for me globally. I have mentioned on numerous occasions I think the gaming industry has gotten greedy and is demanding a ridiculous profit margin to cover ever-expanding developer paydays along with the producer's returns. BUT I see this as being connected to the entire issue of patent knock offs and such, with third world countries manufacturing/pirating goods for sale and cutting out the creators. I do not think the third world is justified in their piracy because of their poverty or govermental system.... and more compelling cases can be made based on knock offs of things like medicine than entertainment media.
Honestly I think the gaming industry as a whole needs a kick in the teeth so to speak. As people have pointed out the industry has made billions, but at the same time you have developers crying poverty to justify lay offs and the like. Truthfully the industry is such a corrupt mess that I'm not sure if many people even at the game companies even know what it's actual state is. In today's world an excuse to lay people off to make more money by lowering expenses, and genuine financial jeopardy are almost impossible to differentiate because only a select few people are going to know the actual truth of such a situation. Ditto for claims of "losses" in a world of "projected profits" and simply making too little profit can be considered (and treated as) a loss. It's like that with most businesses actually (not just the gaming industry) but it still blows chips.
That said while lowering game prices is something I can see happening, I do not think the prices could, or should, be lowered to the point where those in a third world country can afford them... don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't feel for these people to some extent, but we're talking about bloody video games. Compared to all the other things wrong
in those countries I think "how can a third worlder afford a playstation, and play the latest games"? (which seems to be the point of this article) is a petty concern.
If anyone is going to be guilted and leveraged it should be drug companies and such (which happens). I'm both more concerned over the knock offs of those products overall, and at the same time can see medicine as an actual nessecity.
The Third World is what it is for a reason, in my opinion these guys should be spending money on other things, and working on fixing their country, rather than playing video games to begin with. That might seem rather cruel on some levels, but simply put the US and Japan have these kinds of entertainment industries because we've managed to build a society capable of sustaining them.
One also has to look into the govermental and business practices of some of these countries. A few articles have talked about Chinese business laws and the pitfalls companies like Blizzard have had to face to release their product there... in some cases it's not just about money, but also about the system the country is operating under, and how easy it is to do business in that part of the world.
Truthfully video games are not a major concern for me globally. I have mentioned on numerous occasions I think the gaming industry has gotten greedy and is demanding a ridiculous profit margin to cover ever-expanding developer paydays along with the producer's returns. BUT I see this as being connected to the entire issue of patent knock offs and such, with third world countries manufacturing/pirating goods for sale and cutting out the creators. I do not think the third world is justified in their piracy because of their poverty or govermental system.... and more compelling cases can be made based on knock offs of things like medicine than entertainment media.
Honestly I think the gaming industry as a whole needs a kick in the teeth so to speak. As people have pointed out the industry has made billions, but at the same time you have developers crying poverty to justify lay offs and the like. Truthfully the industry is such a corrupt mess that I'm not sure if many people even at the game companies even know what it's actual state is. In today's world an excuse to lay people off to make more money by lowering expenses, and genuine financial jeopardy are almost impossible to differentiate because only a select few people are going to know the actual truth of such a situation. Ditto for claims of "losses" in a world of "projected profits" and simply making too little profit can be considered (and treated as) a loss. It's like that with most businesses actually (not just the gaming industry) but it still blows chips.
That said while lowering game prices is something I can see happening, I do not think the prices could, or should, be lowered to the point where those in a third world country can afford them... don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't feel for these people to some extent, but we're talking about bloody video games. Compared to all the other things wrong
in those countries I think "how can a third worlder afford a playstation, and play the latest games"? (which seems to be the point of this article) is a petty concern.
If anyone is going to be guilted and leveraged it should be drug companies and such (which happens). I'm both more concerned over the knock offs of those products overall, and at the same time can see medicine as an actual nessecity.
I really enjoyed this article. It shows that people around the world can enjoy the same things. We are much more alike than we are different.
I will refrain from insulting you and just say you have a very naive worldview.Therumancer said:
Also i suggest you study some history (and i dont mean american history) plus some economics so you can have a better understanding of why 3rd world countries are 3rd world countries.
Can relate to you, it's much like hearing about the people who live nearby me that treats going to the movies as if it was the awesomest and rarest vacation plan ever.carpathic said:
Even the so called universal mediums have a long way to go to be acessible to everyone, I just wish gaming would take it seriously (other than the indie scene, kudos to them for trying their earnest).
I will refrain from insulting you and just say you have a very naive worldview.
Also i suggest you study some history (and i dont mean american history) plus some economics so you can have a better understanding of why 3rd world countries are 3rd world countries.[/quote]
Well thanks for not insulting this "naive one".
For the record I've studied quite a bit of history, from a number of perspectives, and have a pretty good grasp of economics. I also happen to follow the gaming industry a bit, as well as issues like patent rights.
I would point out that "The Escapist" itself has done bits on gamers outside of the US/Europe/Japan in the past with mixed messages. As have other sites. A lot of what you've said isn't especially new overall.
Truthfully every country has reasons for the way it's wound up, and heck, I'm one of the first people who will say that there are too many people and not enough resources on the planet (in general). That however does not change the fact that there should be bigger concerns in these regions than gaming.
That said, I do agree with you on the pricing of video games. ANOTHER article here on The Escapist talked about Brazil. It was called "Nation of Pirates" or something like that, and it covered a lot of the same ground that you did, albiet focusing on another part of the world. One notable thing about that was the point that Brazilian crime syndicates were apparently able to make massive fortunes on pirated games, with some of these groups (if I remember) even being able to construct and run their own malls and such.
While not intended I took away from that simply that if that much money is being generated by selling games for roughly $5.00 a pop, even considering development costs (which the pirates do not have) games could be massively cheaper and still generate a decent profit margin.
The Escapist also once did an interview with the head of the 1C company (Russian) which talked about his profit margins on an average game, and how much extra money he could take as pure profit by cutting out packaging, distribution, etc... as part of embracing digital distribution. No mention was made of lowering prices though, and that there also pointed out that your fundementally correct about what games could cost and still make a profit. It's notcible that the article on Brazil also made a point about the pirate games not being packaged the way they are here (ie being sold in plastic baggies with a self created printout with the game's logo/cover art).
That said however, with all of the concerns in these other countries, and how poor the people are, I don't see anything paticularly "wrong" or "naive" in saying that they should
be concerned about other things than video games.
I'll also be entirely blunt in saying that internal problems can't typically be resolved/changed by external force. This is why the way we (the US) are approaching things like "The War On Terror" aren't going so well. You can't occupy and "win the peace" this way (I won't go into my overall opinions on the conflict). Simply put problems with a nation or culture have to be resolved by the people themselves even if painful and bloody. Despite what someone might think, you can't reasonably swoop in as a foreign power, change things, and expect it to work. Even the people who hate the current regime are going to tend to resist that.
Hence why I comment that the people would find their time better spent trying to change things. Oh sure, I understand that in some countries this can be very dangerous. But it doesn't change the fact that the people have to do it themselves, and yeah... while these nations might not ever become wealthy first world countries, I think a lot of places in the third world could be a lot better off than they are now... and chances are then the situation with video games and such could be a lot differant.
Also i suggest you study some history (and i dont mean american history) plus some economics so you can have a better understanding of why 3rd world countries are 3rd world countries.[/quote]
Well thanks for not insulting this "naive one".
For the record I've studied quite a bit of history, from a number of perspectives, and have a pretty good grasp of economics. I also happen to follow the gaming industry a bit, as well as issues like patent rights.
I would point out that "The Escapist" itself has done bits on gamers outside of the US/Europe/Japan in the past with mixed messages. As have other sites. A lot of what you've said isn't especially new overall.
Truthfully every country has reasons for the way it's wound up, and heck, I'm one of the first people who will say that there are too many people and not enough resources on the planet (in general). That however does not change the fact that there should be bigger concerns in these regions than gaming.
That said, I do agree with you on the pricing of video games. ANOTHER article here on The Escapist talked about Brazil. It was called "Nation of Pirates" or something like that, and it covered a lot of the same ground that you did, albiet focusing on another part of the world. One notable thing about that was the point that Brazilian crime syndicates were apparently able to make massive fortunes on pirated games, with some of these groups (if I remember) even being able to construct and run their own malls and such.
While not intended I took away from that simply that if that much money is being generated by selling games for roughly $5.00 a pop, even considering development costs (which the pirates do not have) games could be massively cheaper and still generate a decent profit margin.
The Escapist also once did an interview with the head of the 1C company (Russian) which talked about his profit margins on an average game, and how much extra money he could take as pure profit by cutting out packaging, distribution, etc... as part of embracing digital distribution. No mention was made of lowering prices though, and that there also pointed out that your fundementally correct about what games could cost and still make a profit. It's notcible that the article on Brazil also made a point about the pirate games not being packaged the way they are here (ie being sold in plastic baggies with a self created printout with the game's logo/cover art).
That said however, with all of the concerns in these other countries, and how poor the people are, I don't see anything paticularly "wrong" or "naive" in saying that they should
be concerned about other things than video games.
I'll also be entirely blunt in saying that internal problems can't typically be resolved/changed by external force. This is why the way we (the US) are approaching things like "The War On Terror" aren't going so well. You can't occupy and "win the peace" this way (I won't go into my overall opinions on the conflict). Simply put problems with a nation or culture have to be resolved by the people themselves even if painful and bloody. Despite what someone might think, you can't reasonably swoop in as a foreign power, change things, and expect it to work. Even the people who hate the current regime are going to tend to resist that.
Hence why I comment that the people would find their time better spent trying to change things. Oh sure, I understand that in some countries this can be very dangerous. But it doesn't change the fact that the people have to do it themselves, and yeah... while these nations might not ever become wealthy first world countries, I think a lot of places in the third world could be a lot better off than they are now... and chances are then the situation with video games and such could be a lot differant.
It would be tough to handle pricing in a way that they're high enough to make a profit, but low enough that people can afford it. For example, here in Costa Rica, games cost 80-90 dollars, but hacked copies cost less than 10 dollars.ForgottenPr0digy said:
I live in Brazil, that it's a country in 'development'. I mean, I know I can buy almost all the games I want and there are some other people who can do that too, but I also do know there are TONS of people here that pretty mucbh can't afford the games, let alone the consoles!
Too bad that, around here, game renting and or 'play by the hour' had been totally wiped out (at lest, in the places I used to go to play) when the new generation of consoles came along (PS3, Wii and X-Box 360). You still can find on or two places with PS2's with five to ten games available, but that's about it.
Still, piracy and some 'undercover' sells go on, and, hell, I support it! I'm not going to force someone that earns, like, 500 bucks a month or even less to buy a game that costs 250 just for a few hours of fun! This just doesn't make any sense.
So, hey, video game industry, you made almost 20 billion dolars last year. What are you whinning about exactly? Do they really think that a couple of kids in Costa Rica or any other small country hacking game is going to 'destroy the gaming industry as we know it'? I pretty much doubt it.
Too bad that, around here, game renting and or 'play by the hour' had been totally wiped out (at lest, in the places I used to go to play) when the new generation of consoles came along (PS3, Wii and X-Box 360). You still can find on or two places with PS2's with five to ten games available, but that's about it.
Still, piracy and some 'undercover' sells go on, and, hell, I support it! I'm not going to force someone that earns, like, 500 bucks a month or even less to buy a game that costs 250 just for a few hours of fun! This just doesn't make any sense.
So, hey, video game industry, you made almost 20 billion dolars last year. What are you whinning about exactly? Do they really think that a couple of kids in Costa Rica or any other small country hacking game is going to 'destroy the gaming industry as we know it'? I pretty much doubt it.
I won't comment on anything else you've said, but I feel good to have my article cited! First time I've seen it done on the internet.Therumancer said:
^_^
And accurately too, as although I didn't quite make it completely clear in my article, although they're not very big, there are quite a few small malls in the center of the city that sell almost exclusively pirated goods and are, directly or indirectly, under control of these gangs. I have to admit that the news I've been seeing in the past year, from a distance, indicates that the police is beginning to crack down a bit more, although I'm doubtful of how much success they're having.
Concerning the article itself, I've seen similar things, but not to the same extent, in Brazil's poorer areas. Lan houses/internet cafes are pretty important businesses in the poorer areas and quite a lot of contact to the gaming culture occurs there, although the prevalent form of gaming for most is pure piracy (not just the poor, most people who could afford games don't pay either!), be it via organized crime, be it via the internet.
I've also witnessed in Brazil's more rural areas, although that was years ago, the phenomena of rental shops, where gaming systems (usually older ones) were available to play for a price (as well as games). So, certainly it seems that these sorts of developments are common in most 3rd world countries, although with a certain degree of variation for culture/gdp per capita.
And it makes sense too. Without a developed, legitimate gaming market, you'd expect to piracy and rent shops to take it's place, as most places have contact with the gaming culture, be it old or new, thanks to the internet and 'globalization'.
Fixed.Michael Thomsen said:
In any case, thank you for a very interesting article. Ever since I saw a picture of two NES consoles from North Korea, I was always amazed at just how widespread gaming is. It's very interesting to learn how they go about it in less developed countries.
An excellent article. We just spend a good chunk of time discussing how video games are and aren't art, and we forget what a select circle we're speaking of. Maybe those poor Madagascar children appreciate their bootleg Mario in a much deeper level we ever could.
I'm Brazilian and while I don't have Steam I pay US prices on everything. What probably happens is that Australia has caught on and taxed online sales, which Steam must abide by (and hike up the price as to not take a loss) while Brazil and Argentina haven't already. Judging by Brazil's current tax policy they just haven't paid notice to this kind of sale, so my Latin American brethren better enjoy this while it lasts. (I know I am, buying GoG games like there's no tomorrow.)
Taxes.ENKC said:
I'm Brazilian and while I don't have Steam I pay US prices on everything. What probably happens is that Australia has caught on and taxed online sales, which Steam must abide by (and hike up the price as to not take a loss) while Brazil and Argentina haven't already. Judging by Brazil's current tax policy they just haven't paid notice to this kind of sale, so my Latin American brethren better enjoy this while it lasts. (I know I am, buying GoG games like there's no tomorrow.)
Sorry, but no. A PC needs to be set up and configured to run a game. A videogame needs only to be attached to a power source and have the 'on' button pushed[footnote]Some vigourous cartridge blowing may be necessary as well.[/footnote]. Until PCs become so widespread even bedouins are carrying one, (and I'm talking about people who probably don't even carry radios), videogames will be spearheading this revolution.Tom Phoenix said:Fixed.Michael Thomsen said:
It so happens that a friend of mine (in Aus) found 'ways and means' of obtaining the international (read: uncensored) version of Left 4 Dead 2 for the international (read: lower) price. It does seem absurd though that when we're trying to legitimately pay for the game rather than pirate it in the first place, we still have to pay more for digital distribution. A large part of the point of digital distribution is that they have none of the massive costs of importation and retailing, so they should be able to have global standard pricing.boholikeu said:
I'm not wanting to hijack the thread for a whinge about our prices, but the relative prices in different countries with different levels of economic development does seem pertinent.
Random One, to my knowledge Aus prices are not the result of an online sales tax. Generally it is the expensive, big name titles that cost significantly more. My understanding is that our major retailers have agreements by way of the publishers such that Steam will not significantly undercut their prices on major new releases. This does of course remove a huge part of the incentive to use Steam for those specific titles.
This was a fascinating article. I always thought of India and China as countries of inexpensive electronics - I figured they'd be more prone to gaming than us because comparatively speaking, it costs less for them to buy it.
I guess I didn't take into account the variences between class-based income and the lack of things like minimum wage and government pensions. I've never really felt rich - and right now on a student income I feel downright poor! But now I can see 'Holy hell, my government actually pays me to study full time'. And if I picked up ten hours of work a fortnight (all I am allowed to do without cutting my payments in half) that's almost $200 a fortnight I could then spend on games. Or food.
And this is me living BELOW the poverty line in Australia.
I guess I didn't take into account the variences between class-based income and the lack of things like minimum wage and government pensions. I've never really felt rich - and right now on a student income I feel downright poor! But now I can see 'Holy hell, my government actually pays me to study full time'. And if I picked up ten hours of work a fortnight (all I am allowed to do without cutting my payments in half) that's almost $200 a fortnight I could then spend on games. Or food.
And this is me living BELOW the poverty line in Australia.
Well written and very touching article Michael. Games are like an interactive cultural portal that can span the depths and ocean that is political and even socio-economic, and reach to people wherever there is electricity.
I think the first part is more accurate than the second.The Random One said:Sorry, but no. A PC needs to be set up and configured to run a game. A videogame needs only to be attached to a power source and have the 'on' button pushed[footnote]Some vigourous cartridge blowing may be necessary as well.[/footnote]. Until PCs become so widespread even bedouins are carrying one, (and I'm talking about people who probably don't even carry radios), videogames will be spearheading this revolution.Tom Phoenix said:Fixed.Michael Thomsen said:
Reading the article, I couldn't help but be reminded of that Chinese NES remake of Final Fantasy VII.
Embeded video for the curious...
After all, if NESs are more commonplace in China (or elsewhere) then PSXs, something as bizarre as an 8-bit FFVII become more understandable.
Embeded video for the curious...
After all, if NESs are more commonplace in China (or elsewhere) then PSXs, something as bizarre as an 8-bit FFVII become more understandable.