Procedural Stories
Storytelling by algorithm might work, but you might not really want it to.
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Storytelling by algorithm might work, but you might not really want it to.
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Procedural Stories
- Thread starter Shamus Young
- Start date
Hey look everybody, Shamus is back! Always great to read your columns.
Skyrim also did the "procedural content" thing with those "radiant quests" and I can most definitely say they were not fun, especially after retrieving the nth lost sword/shield/amulet/book from the nth cave/fort/ruin. The arbitrary reasoning for how the item even ended up there... at the end of a linear path... waiting inside a large chest... just made the tasks even more tedious.
I would, however, LOVE to see a game like the one you mentioned in the town. The Walking Dead came about as close to making me feel like I had i4nfluenced the story as any game has. Apart from Mass Effect, but we all know what went wrong there.
Skyrim also did the "procedural content" thing with those "radiant quests" and I can most definitely say they were not fun, especially after retrieving the nth lost sword/shield/amulet/book from the nth cave/fort/ruin. The arbitrary reasoning for how the item even ended up there... at the end of a linear path... waiting inside a large chest... just made the tasks even more tedious.
I would, however, LOVE to see a game like the one you mentioned in the town. The Walking Dead came about as close to making me feel like I had i4nfluenced the story as any game has. Apart from Mass Effect, but we all know what went wrong there.
This is the kind of thing Civilization and Mount and Blade does really well. They drop you in, there's a bunch of ways to win, and you choose what you want to do and see what happens.
Dwarf Fortress also lends itself spectacularly to this sort of thing. When you get past the admittedly high barrier of entry, at least. But if you do, there's plenty of "fun" to be hand.
Dwarf Fortress also lends itself spectacularly to this sort of thing. When you get past the admittedly high barrier of entry, at least. But if you do, there's plenty of "fun" to be hand.
I have yet to read the article, but I'd like to point out before I do...
New Experienced Points article? FUCK YEAH SEAKING
My day just got a lot better. Which is nice, because I've had a pretty good day.
EDIT: OK. My giddy excitement abated, I'd like to say that:
I admit that this is partly down to my favoured choice of games (I'm a big, big strategy fan), but the principle is (in my opinion) objective - The story of my trials and struggles in Crusader Kings II was more tense, thrilling, and intensely emotional (Of course, CK2 being CK2, these emotions were hate, fury, rage, loathing, and resentment, but that's beside the point) than the main plots of most of the last 5 RPGs I played.
I'm not suggesting that one replace the others, simply that the brilliant, unique qualities of the emergent gameplay/story model be embraced by the more rigid story-focused series.
Already you can sort of see this in Elder Scrolls - the main plot is basically ignored for most of the game. Instead, you spend your time doing what you want, crafting your own character. The actual narrative is buried so far down the backseat, you'd need a endoscopy camera to see it. The game's strengths lie in the side journey. The bandit forts and dragon lairs. The daring thefts and accidental murders.
That's the stuff you remember.
New Experienced Points article? FUCK YEAH SEAKING
My day just got a lot better. Which is nice, because I've had a pretty good day.
EDIT: OK. My giddy excitement abated, I'd like to say that:
YES. THIS. I've been saying this for a while now. I love some structured game plots, but honestly, I think that the thing gaming does best when it comes to narrative is the glory of 4X-style emergent stories. They belong to the player.Irridium said:
I admit that this is partly down to my favoured choice of games (I'm a big, big strategy fan), but the principle is (in my opinion) objective - The story of my trials and struggles in Crusader Kings II was more tense, thrilling, and intensely emotional (Of course, CK2 being CK2, these emotions were hate, fury, rage, loathing, and resentment, but that's beside the point) than the main plots of most of the last 5 RPGs I played.
I'm not suggesting that one replace the others, simply that the brilliant, unique qualities of the emergent gameplay/story model be embraced by the more rigid story-focused series.
Already you can sort of see this in Elder Scrolls - the main plot is basically ignored for most of the game. Instead, you spend your time doing what you want, crafting your own character. The actual narrative is buried so far down the backseat, you'd need a endoscopy camera to see it. The game's strengths lie in the side journey. The bandit forts and dragon lairs. The daring thefts and accidental murders.
That's the stuff you remember.
Yay, Shamus is back!
Procedural storytelling sounds interesting, but I can see it fall short, when players do something the creator wasn't counting on, to what the game wouldn't know how to respond.
Procedural storytelling sounds interesting, but I can see it fall short, when players do something the creator wasn't counting on, to what the game wouldn't know how to respond.
Shamus, you brought up The Sims as an example of attempting emergent stories, but there is an even better example you might have heard of: Crusader Kings II, aka the medieval stabbing simulator.
And here's another that goes a bit deeper into it [http://kotaku.com/5972744/why-crusader-kings-ii-should-be-game-of-the-year].
Anybody interested in this sort of things should check the game out, it's amazingly well done.
And here's another that goes a bit deeper into it [http://kotaku.com/5972744/why-crusader-kings-ii-should-be-game-of-the-year].
Anybody interested in this sort of things should check the game out, it's amazingly well done.
Can story be handled like stat based combat? Something like each character has stat pools of story based whatever - fear, bravery, love, hate, willpower - and have that affect the story rather than the gameplay. Where in some games you have a meter of good vs evil and it determines your powers or ending just have a bit more of that but have it affect events throughout the story - not - did you save Ben at chance number 1 so now this and this will happen - instead, you saved Ben at chance 1 so now you get this many points to your protector stat
You have stat Black, White, and Red
Walking Dead game You enter the house with the dog collar
Kenny has 25 red stat - he's going to search the house - if he has only 19 red stat he picks a fight with Lee, if his Black stat is 30 he collapses on the floor
It would have to account for a lot, but selecting three or four story important pools and having something not too complicated, like 3 or 5 options per character based on those pools at each story moment, while a lot of work I am sure, seems like it would allow for a lot of flexible story.
would that work at all? or is already in use to some extent in games?
You have stat Black, White, and Red
Walking Dead game You enter the house with the dog collar
Kenny has 25 red stat - he's going to search the house - if he has only 19 red stat he picks a fight with Lee, if his Black stat is 30 he collapses on the floor
It would have to account for a lot, but selecting three or four story important pools and having something not too complicated, like 3 or 5 options per character based on those pools at each story moment, while a lot of work I am sure, seems like it would allow for a lot of flexible story.
would that work at all? or is already in use to some extent in games?
I would love to have this for clothing in rpgs, this kind of system. If you look more like beggar, some thieves could let you go alone, while richly dressed merchant would be the target almost every time he went on road. It would also make your choices matter from a social standpoint, attending the king in appropriate attire, etc. Some players may skip the armor protection for advantage in speech checks or something... I dunno, that could maybe work.ChristopherT said:
That would be awesome, like that heavy suit of armor gives a great protection value but knights are seen as tyrannical bastards so in town slums store prices are nearly doubled, peasants avoid you, you're more likely to be attacked by a mugger, but in the rich districts you're showered with gifts, and prices are lowered. However dress as a shlub, and in the nicer parts of town they refuse to even sell you goods.Mordekaien said:
I always play with clothing options when ever given the choice, to the extent of refusing to wear ugly armor if the boost isn't high enough - I don't want the +20 armor, my +15 armor looks better
Thats a really interesting idea. Would you mind if at some point I made something roughly based on that? I know a while ago Yahtzee talked about a randomly generated book. Combining your idea with his could create a fairly easy (although time consuming) to write short story generator. If I ever have the time I would love to give that a shot, but I don't want to steal your ideas.ChristopherT said:
Aww. I thought you were about to talk about Procedural Fiction - that is, cop stories that focus on the procedure of investigating and prosecuting crime. Like Law and Order, or Castle. Or like LA Noir, if we're talking games. I have a thing for procedural police fiction.
Ah well, randomly generated stuff is neat too.
Ah well, randomly generated stuff is neat too.
Woo hoo! More Shamus! 
Great article, and I see that several people have already made the same logical leaps as me...
This can be far more immersive and satisfying than being spoon-fed a story, but it's less palatable to a player who is used to passively receiving entertainment a-la TV (or some JRPGs). Mentally, if not physically, the player needs to get off their ass and get involved in creating the story.
Great article, and I see that several people have already made the same logical leaps as me...
I didn't mind the radiant quests. The thing is, Skyrim is so incredibly vast that in four play-throughs I STILL haven't actually explored the whole place. So those radiant quests give me an incentive to go and explore a specific part of the world, which is not all bad.Proverbial Jon said:
Mount and Blade is certainly a leader in this regard. I think the commercial limitation is that emergent stories require creative involvement from the player. We throw around the term "sandbox game", but we often don't realise what it means. A true sandbox game (like Mount and Blade) is one where the game provides the tools for the story, but the player has to make them. That is, it's got as much inherent story as a real sandbox. It's up to the player to think about things like their character's motivations and where they want to sit on the good-evil-chaotic-lawful spectrum, and adjust their in-game actions accordingly. Do I want to burn down this village? What if the only in-game consequence is a pile of burnt bodies and the knowledge that I am to blame? That is a true sandbox situation. (Of course, depending on the rules of the sandbox, you could have repercussions from the villager's allies, or the local army, but you see the point).Irridium said:
This can be far more immersive and satisfying than being spoon-fed a story, but it's less palatable to a player who is used to passively receiving entertainment a-la TV (or some JRPGs). Mentally, if not physically, the player needs to get off their ass and get involved in creating the story.
Aye, Mount and Blade does this brilliantly. It even does something akin to the town Shamus describes, although not in quite as much depth. If you get involved in the courtly politics of one of the realms, you quickly find that the court is split into different factions, helping certain noblemen makes him and his friends like you more, but earns you the dislike of their enemies. Everyone distrusts the turncoat nobleman/noblemen (there can be a lot of these if your kingdom really starts dominating the map) at first, but sometimes they end up becoming part of one of the factions due to their actions. Get enough support and there's good odds you'll see material benefits from it, and if you set things up right you can become the true power behind the throne.
Actually, one hopeful indication on the horizon is a seldom-discussed aspect of Skyrim. That is, the guard dialog.
Yes, all that crap about "Hail Companion!", and "I don't suppose you'd enchant my sword?"
It seems pretty trivial, and it can get a little repetitive, but it's actually an example of the world dynamically adapting around the past actions and current abilities of the player. It's a framework on which emergent procedural gameplay could be built.
Yes, all that crap about "Hail Companion!", and "I don't suppose you'd enchant my sword?"
It seems pretty trivial, and it can get a little repetitive, but it's actually an example of the world dynamically adapting around the past actions and current abilities of the player. It's a framework on which emergent procedural gameplay could be built.
I think it'd be quite feasible to make a rudimentary generator that plops out a bunch of stories, but the problem is that quantity != quality. You'd specifically need someone to read over the stories and pick out the good ones, that are topical, or focus on life's little idiosyncracies and ironies.
Enter Twitter.
I seriously think that Twitter's massive hashtag repository could be used to identify the short stories in which the procedural content has the potential to be topical. Use groupings of hashtags to understand which story elements go together, and also what current events are deemed interesting or ironic (thanks hipsters for going through life and tagging all those events for us!) As a yardstick, you'd want to make the core algorithm, and then add the Twitter filter on at the end to rank potential stories, and try to see if a story concerning, say, troops seeking the legendary insurgents in the magical land of Afghanistan plops out at the top of the list.
At the absolute worst, you'll just end up with some sort of tale of crystal bacon Jesus [http://xkcd.com/856/] seeking a hobo narwhal doctor [http://blog.xkcd.com/2011/02/04/trochee-chart/] but apparently the internet already likes that crap.
Enter Twitter.
I seriously think that Twitter's massive hashtag repository could be used to identify the short stories in which the procedural content has the potential to be topical. Use groupings of hashtags to understand which story elements go together, and also what current events are deemed interesting or ironic (thanks hipsters for going through life and tagging all those events for us!) As a yardstick, you'd want to make the core algorithm, and then add the Twitter filter on at the end to rank potential stories, and try to see if a story concerning, say, troops seeking the legendary insurgents in the magical land of Afghanistan plops out at the top of the list.
At the absolute worst, you'll just end up with some sort of tale of crystal bacon Jesus [http://xkcd.com/856/] seeking a hobo narwhal doctor [http://blog.xkcd.com/2011/02/04/trochee-chart/] but apparently the internet already likes that crap.
Interesting article.
I think to a limited extent it could probably be done, but we'd need better non-player character intelligence first. If you combined an engine that could work out "logical" actions for a character to perform, based on something vaguely like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and crossed it with a sort of chart of narrative/dramatic beats into a story matrix, I think you'd have a beginning.
Consider, for example, a sort of "cop action movie" kind of game. The drug lord Mr. X starts out wanting to secure his power base, edge out any upstart competition, and increase his wealth. Perhaps he tells his minions to undertake a smuggling operation and firebomb a rival's supply warehouse.
But the player prevents the firebombing. Mr. X's need to edge out his competition goes unfulfilled, and he starts to recognize the presence of the player at a low level- perhaps not knowledge of the player's character himself, but merely that there's a new wrinkle interfering with his plans.
Mr. X sends his goons out to recruit new minions, and, still seeking to destroy his competitors, arranges for a drive-by-shooting at a dock where his rivals bring in their own supplies. The player fails to stop the shooting but disables the vehicle that performed it, and between his contacts on the street and the goon he captures fleeing the vehicle, he starts to close in on the villain.
By now, Mr. X is very aware of the player and sees him as a real threat. He decides to kill the player's wife, but the story chart intercedes, saying that a) the wife is too important a character to be killed off frivolously and b) it's too early in the story for such a dramatically intense "beat". Through either a downgrade of the original "storyline" or the generation of a new one, instead, a rookie cop the player is friendly with is injured in an attack intended for the player. The player uses the information he gathered through earlier interrogations to start going more aggressively pursuing Mr. X's interests, and closes an important drug processing factory.
By this point, the story/character matrix is quite clear that Mr. X is very aware of the player's character and considers all other goals superfluous to destroying the player's character, preventing the foiling of future attempts to satisfy his need hierarchy. His wealth has taken a hit, but his rivals are less of a threat, and his recruiting has been successful, so he has plenty of manpower. The matrix concludes that the appropriate (both logically and dramatically) step for Mr. X to take is a full-on assault of the police station.
When the player and his comrades successfully fight off this assault, interrogating one of the dying assailants reveals Mr. X's headquarters, and sets the stage for a final showdown.
Of course, none of this engages the problem that we frequently expect games with any significant sense of drama to be fully voiced these days, and fully scripting out responses like the ones above would just mean a ridiculous amount of unused assets, more or less destroying the reasons for having procedurally generated content in the first place. But I think with a willingness to put resources into engaging such problems head-on, a well-realized game could be created centered around such a matrix.
I think to a limited extent it could probably be done, but we'd need better non-player character intelligence first. If you combined an engine that could work out "logical" actions for a character to perform, based on something vaguely like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and crossed it with a sort of chart of narrative/dramatic beats into a story matrix, I think you'd have a beginning.
Consider, for example, a sort of "cop action movie" kind of game. The drug lord Mr. X starts out wanting to secure his power base, edge out any upstart competition, and increase his wealth. Perhaps he tells his minions to undertake a smuggling operation and firebomb a rival's supply warehouse.
But the player prevents the firebombing. Mr. X's need to edge out his competition goes unfulfilled, and he starts to recognize the presence of the player at a low level- perhaps not knowledge of the player's character himself, but merely that there's a new wrinkle interfering with his plans.
Mr. X sends his goons out to recruit new minions, and, still seeking to destroy his competitors, arranges for a drive-by-shooting at a dock where his rivals bring in their own supplies. The player fails to stop the shooting but disables the vehicle that performed it, and between his contacts on the street and the goon he captures fleeing the vehicle, he starts to close in on the villain.
By now, Mr. X is very aware of the player and sees him as a real threat. He decides to kill the player's wife, but the story chart intercedes, saying that a) the wife is too important a character to be killed off frivolously and b) it's too early in the story for such a dramatically intense "beat". Through either a downgrade of the original "storyline" or the generation of a new one, instead, a rookie cop the player is friendly with is injured in an attack intended for the player. The player uses the information he gathered through earlier interrogations to start going more aggressively pursuing Mr. X's interests, and closes an important drug processing factory.
By this point, the story/character matrix is quite clear that Mr. X is very aware of the player's character and considers all other goals superfluous to destroying the player's character, preventing the foiling of future attempts to satisfy his need hierarchy. His wealth has taken a hit, but his rivals are less of a threat, and his recruiting has been successful, so he has plenty of manpower. The matrix concludes that the appropriate (both logically and dramatically) step for Mr. X to take is a full-on assault of the police station.
When the player and his comrades successfully fight off this assault, interrogating one of the dying assailants reveals Mr. X's headquarters, and sets the stage for a final showdown.
Of course, none of this engages the problem that we frequently expect games with any significant sense of drama to be fully voiced these days, and fully scripting out responses like the ones above would just mean a ridiculous amount of unused assets, more or less destroying the reasons for having procedurally generated content in the first place. But I think with a willingness to put resources into engaging such problems head-on, a well-realized game could be created centered around such a matrix.
