GTA's Morality Is More Complex Than You Realize

Robert Rath

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GTA's Morality Is More Complex Than You Realize

You?d think that the GTA series throws morality and ethics out the window entirely, but you?d be wrong.

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Sigmund Av Volsung

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Robert Rath said:
GTA's Morality Is More Complex Than You Realize

You?d think that the GTA series throws morality and ethics out the window entirely, but you?d be wrong.

Read Full Article
About that whole "police aren't that corrupt" thing, you should visit Eastern Europe sometime.

Because they are and the levels of corruption within government and its branches are appalling.

Other than that, interesting article, but in order to assume that GTA is some massive statement on the modern age is a bit strange, considering that the series only started taking this turn towards realism after Vice City, and has lost its wackiness, which makes me sad.

I want to play GTA to have fun and unwind as I always have, if I want to feel bad about myself or the world I live in, I will play Spec Ops: The Line.
 

rasputin0009

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This is a better argument than Greg Tito's argument. Tito ignored a lot and never gave much thought more than "Me sad". I actually enjoyed reading this.
 

Robert Rath

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Akichi Daikashima said:
About that whole "police aren't that corrupt" thing, you should visit Eastern Europe sometime.

Because they are and the levels of corruption within government and its branches are appalling.
Funny you mention that. Last year I wrote an article where I compared GTA to a Hungary's most famous bank robber and suggested that the series would actually make more sense if it were set in Eastern Europe: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/criticalintel/10077-Ordinary-Players-Extraordinary-Characters

Actually I really wish GTA would drop its obsession with the US and set its next game in Shanghai, Mumbai, Panama City, Dubai... pretty much anywhere but New York or LA again.
 

Darth_Payn

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This article read more like a defense of Rockstar's overall output than only the GTA series. I was expecting a total rebuttal of Greg Tito's Feature about why everyone in GTA V sucks. If everyone is awful, and not a in a winky, cartoonish manner, then it's just not really fun beyond the rampages.
 

ancylostomiasis

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Apart from GTA VI having a take on immigration and the American dream, the others in the series ARE textbook moral nihilism.

And since when did we call that a morality?

The article reminds me of those Tarantino movies, if you like it, fine, to each his own. But if you argue there are moral messages and serious debates of social problems in them? Sorry, can't agree.

Akichi Daikashima said:
I want to play GTA to have fun and unwind as I always have, if I want to feel bad about myself or the world I live in, I will play Spec Ops: The Line.
I would've chose DEHR.

Even Mirror's Edge hints more social criticism.
 

TiberiusEsuriens

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Robert Rath said:
Hypocritical as it may be, audiences will generally allow criminal protagonists to do reprehensible things provided they're motivated by a larger idea like redemption, justice, or the American Dream. We're more comfortable with people who kill for their values than those who kill for greed. Rockstar, it seems, has decided to push this envelope in GTA V. Only time will tell if it pays off, or if they've made a vast misjudgment and made their characters unlikable.
That's the best summary of this whole situation I've found yet. Rockstar games are pretty great and offer tons of freedom to do whatever you like and make your own path, but this time around, especially with Trevor, they've forced people into a situation where people dislike their own character so much some would even want to stop playing. It all depends on an individual's ability to block out or separate themselves during those times to determine whether they're willing to keep pushing.

Robert Rath said:
Akichi Daikashima said:
About that whole "police aren't that corrupt" thing, you should visit Eastern Europe sometime.

Because they are and the levels of corruption within government and its branches are appalling.
Funny you mention that. Last year I wrote an article where I compared GTA to a Hungary's most famous bank robber and suggested that the series would actually make more sense if it were set in Eastern Europe: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/criticalintel/10077-Ordinary-Players-Extraordinary-Characters

Actually I really wish GTA would drop its obsession with the US and set its next game in Shanghai, Mumbai, Panama City, Dubai... pretty much anywhere but New York or LA again.
Rockstar has stated in the past and even recent history that they see their games going global. I think so far what has limited it is their comfort and familiarity with US cities and habits. The games traditionally have focused not just on the US cities, but the "American Dream." GTAV moves away from that a little, so I can easily see them using another, or multiple countries in the future.
 

Sigmund Av Volsung

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Robert Rath said:
Akichi Daikashima said:
About that whole "police aren't that corrupt" thing, you should visit Eastern Europe sometime.

Because they are and the levels of corruption within government and its branches are appalling.
Funny you mention that. Last year I wrote an article where I compared GTA to a Hungary's most famous bank robber and suggested that the series would actually make more sense if it were set in Eastern Europe: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/criticalintel/10077-Ordinary-Players-Extraordinary-Characters

Actually I really wish GTA would drop its obsession with the US and set its next game in Shanghai, Mumbai, Panama City, Dubai... pretty much anywhere but New York or LA again.
That would be a breath of fresh air.

Hell, if they have the balls and the ambition, they could easily do games about the seedier, actually corrupt cities of the world, and it work quite well with their current vision of GTA.
 

putowtin

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A good read as always, it doesn't change the fact that I don't wish to play a game that forces me to
torture a guy and blow someone's head off with a rigged phone
For no reason
 

Voltano

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TiberiusEsuriens said:
Robert Rath said:
Hypocritical as it may be, audiences will generally allow criminal protagonists to do reprehensible things provided they're motivated by a larger idea like redemption, justice, or the American Dream. We're more comfortable with people who kill for their values than those who kill for greed. Rockstar, it seems, has decided to push this envelope in GTA V. Only time will tell if it pays off, or if they've made a vast misjudgment and made their characters unlikable.
That's the best summary of this whole situation I've found yet. Rockstar games are pretty great and offer tons of freedom to do whatever you like and make your own path, but this time around, especially with Trevor, they've forced people into a situation where people dislike their own character so much some would even want to stop playing. It all depends on an individual's ability to block out or separate themselves during those times to determine whether they're willing to keep pushing.
I think one problem with Trevor -- and the tone of GTA these days, it seems like -- is that it seems like its going for a "black comedy" theme? I'm thinking of an old Jim Carrey film like "Cable Guy" where the humor is based upon ethically questionable actions that might be funny to some (Jim Sterling) and not to others (Greg Tito). Not implying one is right over the other, but "black comedy" could be seen as offensive to one person yet comical to another. I guess it could be said that this theme is part of the core mechanics since the first GTA game as the player is expected to go nuts at some point (as this article states). However, with Trevor, the player is meant to do ethically questionable things for the sake of comedy.

I guess you could say that GTA is a game where you are supposed to leave your morality at the door when you enter the game. But maybe Rockstar pushed the line too far on what people can do for humor/fun?
 

TiberiusEsuriens

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Voltano said:
I think one problem with Trevor -- and the tone of GTA these days, it seems like -- is that it seems like its going for a "black comedy" theme? I'm thinking of an old Jim Carrey film like "Cable Guy" where the humor is based upon ethically questionable actions that might be funny to some (Jim Sterling) and not to others (Greg Tito). Not implying one is right over the other, but "black comedy" could be seen as offensive to one person yet comical to another. I guess it could be said that this theme is part of the core mechanics since the first GTA game as the player is expected to go nuts at some point (as this article states). However, with Trevor, the player is meant to do ethically questionable things for the sake of comedy.

I guess you could say that GTA is a game where you are supposed to leave your morality at the door when you enter the game. But maybe Rockstar pushed the line too far on what people can do for humor/fun?
I'm all for dark comedy, but I personally feel there's a bit too much of it thrown in our faces in a row. There's shock, disgust, then reprehension, then just plain getting tired of it. I think they pushed it enough at times to simply break some people's limits.
 

chadachada123

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putowtin said:
A good read as always, it doesn't change the fact that I don't wish to play a game that forces me to
torture a guy and blow someone's head off with a rigged phone
For no reason
Well, the former has the character that does it literally pointing out how pointless it was afterward. The latter we didn't even know was GOING to happen until it did. The character was unaware, as well, and expresses his dislike of not being told about what the device was.
 

Something Amyss

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chadachada123 said:
The latter we didn't even know was GOING to happen until it did. The character was unaware, as well, and expresses his dislike of not being told about what the device was.
And that gets left by the wayside in a lot of these arguments. I think most of us can identify with the feeling of being used, and he clearly was. He, like us, was complicit, but didn't expect the outcome to be so...Extreme.

Maybe he should have seen it. Maybe we should have (and in retrospect, one of the lines is pretty ominous). But still.

Also, Trevor is a monster. If we're talking the other spoiler, I have trouble believing people got that far into the storyline and suddenly found things objectionable. Then again, I'm not to that one yet, maybe it is truly worse. It's just....He's a monster. It's not like he's a role model who suddenly crossed a line, like doing a risque dance with Vanilla Ice at the VMAs.
 

Mudze

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"GTA's Morality Is More Complex Than You Realize"

No it isn't, I've known it's more complex than the media seems to think I do from the beginning. You don't give us enough credit. The media have been tearing apart the torture scene since it got a hold of it and it's been GAMERS that have been defending it as a work of art.
 

briankoontz

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It's a terrible idea to focus on GTA V in terms of giving a beatdown. GTA protagonists are no worse people than the characters in Reservoir Dogs, unless made to be so by the player. GTA V is also one of the best games of all time in terms of the quality of the world, gameplay within the world, voice acting, and scripted sequences.

I'd much rather have a game like GTA V which makes an effort towards realism rather than one where realism is thrown out the window in the name of massacring aliens or monsters. At least GTA V mans up enough to have the protagonist murder human beings.

It's precisely in murdering humans that gamers can start to see the possibilities for morality in gaming, which they are blinded by when the victims are aliens, monsters, or enemy soldiers. The GTA series has done a lot to push morality in the right direction.

GTA is a shining light of realism in a sea of gaming nonsense, and should be lauded as such.
 

Aardvaarkman

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I don't think "morality" is the real issue with GTA V or its characters, it's more that the characters are annoying, unpleasant to play, and poorly-written.

Aside from that, in the 4 hours or so that I've played so far, the gameplay is fairly dull. It's mostly like GTA IV with some minor technical improvements, and a worse story. I really enjoyed GTA III and IV, and therefore pre-ordered GTA V - but so far, this just isn't doing it for me.

With other recent games, flawed as though they may have been, were more engrossing - and I couldn't wait to get home to play them (e.g: The Last of Us in particular and Bioshock Infinite as runner-up). With GTA V, I just don't have that desire, it feels more like a chore to sit through the painful dialog and contrived missions.

People will say "it's a sandbox game," who cares about the story or characters"? But if it's all about the sandbox, then even put the story in there in the first place?
 

Right Hook

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rasputin0009 said:
This is a better argument than Greg Tito's argument. Tito ignored a lot and never gave much thought more than "Me sad". I actually enjoyed reading this.
I have to agree with you, Tito's came across as if he didn't want to like it just to subvert fans and create a polarizing article/review. I highly doubt that's what he set out to do but that's what it felt like.

Maybe I haven't got far enough into the game yet but nothing has made me cringe or want to give up, I've always been able to separate fantasy from reality. Just because I play as these men, doesn't make me these men.
 

Roofstone

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I really like the characters in gta V, I don't at all see that they do thing solely for their greed. (With the exception of Trevor, but he is insane.) Michael and Franklin is frequently forced along by their "betters", and more often than not they NEED to have that money.

And they are all likeable, great persons. Though maybe a bit grumpy.