These Damn Cosplaying Kids Need To Get Off My Lawn!

[RossaLincoln]

These Damn Cosplaying Kids Need To Get Off My Lawn!

Congratulations, cosplayers. By being labeled a symptom of a bad economy, you've been added to the list of "things that make out of touch people nervous".

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[far_wanderer]

You appear to be looking pretty hard for a fight where there isn't one. I've read and heard old man diatribes about cosplay and that wasn't one of them. The only things even remotely denigrating to cosplay are in the subtitle and picture caption. The rest of the article is, if anything, slightly pro-cosplay, lumping it in with other socially-acceptable ways people deal with economic hardship and stress.
The article even goes so far as to specify "After all, it's not that these young adults in Japan are resisting becoming productive members of the economy ? it's that there just aren't enough opportunities for them" and "It's not to say that all or even most cosplay aficionados are struggling to find work. It's only to say that any rise in people fleeing reality for fantasy suggests problems with our reality"

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

Older folks who aren't inundated in the geek/nerd culture are going to be hard pressed to understand cosplaying and they won't understand the connection between it and sports fans who dress up. It reminds me of the stigma I'd endured when I went through my phase of wearing fishnet shirts and frequenting goth/bondage clubs. I won't lie, I loved the music and the dress style plus the attention in public places was classic and a huge self-esteem boost. Sure I had to go through a lot of folks saying "Its not Halloween" and such, but for someone who was used to being ignored most of his life being suddenly noticed was interesting.
I've since retired that wardrobe mostly, trading it in for my standard fare of concert T's and jeans with various gaming/geek shirts and jackets/hoodies tossed about the mix.
*shrug*
I dunno what my point is but I think it has to do with people being people and there's always going to be some aspect of culture that makes others uncomfortable.
The economy at this point is making it hard to make anything of oneself without already having access to success. If we who are scraping by and raising a family or just trying to keep food on our own tables and the lights on find a way to make ourselves smile despite the stress then so be it. Who has the right to judge any of us for what we do to make ourselves happy?
Hell when having a college degree just means you're a high priced pizza delivery person for a lot of graduates (or some other menial job that has nothing to do with said degree one might hold) one needs some escape from dealing with the mounting debt of student loans that were promised to "pay for themselves" post-graduation.
I'll put it this way, I've got more friends who never went to college and are a hell of a lot more successful and happy than the majority of friends who graduated. I'm not saying all college grads have useless degrees, just that its not a guarantee of success. Especially in today's fucked up economic situation. I also know quite a few college grads who're in therapy or recovering addicts/alcoholics...

 

[The Ubermensch]

Cosplaying is a "otaku" (read nerd) activity.
So is buyfaggotry, and being a buyfag is expensive from experience.
It's amazing what you can buy when you only eat noodles.

It is a sign of the times, we're reaching peak degeneracy because the economy is terrible.

 

[vid87]

The only way I could get on the original article's wavelength (which wasn't really all that inflammatory - if anything the title Escapist gave it made it sound accusatory) was the mental image of the actual reality-detached otaku who marries their love pillow (unless that's an urban legend) and those make up a tiny number of the group as a whole. Regardless of cosplaying, unfortunately the thing about no one starting families, at least in Japan, supposedly is an actual problem since the ratio of retirees to younglings paying into pensions and benefits is so off that they're approaching a national crisis.

I will say that I have a female friend who talks about her job all the time (and all its problems, sexist and otherwise) and is also a magnificent cosplayer. I understand she sinks in a hell of a lot of time and is wonderfully creative, but I still don't completely understand how she affords it, and that includes the travel and hotel.

 

[UberPubert]

You appear to be looking pretty hard for a fight where there isn't one. I've read and heard old man diatribes about cosplay and that wasn't one of them. The only things even remotely denigrating to cosplay are in the subtitle and picture caption. The rest of the article is, if anything, slightly pro-cosplay, lumping it in with other socially-acceptable ways people deal with economic hardship and stress.
The article even goes so far as to specify "After all, it's not that these young adults in Japan are resisting becoming productive members of the economy ? it's that there just aren't enough opportunities for them" and "It's not to say that all or even most cosplay aficionados are struggling to find work. It's only to say that any rise in people fleeing reality for fantasy suggests problems with our reality"

This is a pretty good summation of my thoughts and yeah it ties back into what I witnessed with the original blatantly click-baitey article posted by roseofwar just yesterday on this, "Guy blames cosplayers for bad economy!" except he didn't.

Pethokoukis isn't saying that cosplay is somehow a negative product of society or that it even contributes to it, he's just drawing a parallel with a phenomenon seen by another researcher in Japan and being mostly sympathetic to young people and cosplayers.

I really don't see how this warranted a full article, much less the combative tone or title therein.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Is it just me or is society always hating against "remixes" of normal day activities?

- Comics are basically picture books for teens and adults
- Video-Games are interactable films and/or books
- And now cosplaying, which is more or less, as the article says, the same as sports fans pretending to be a part of their favourite sports team

From what I make of it, humans are afraid of change, which is bad as our cultures, our world, is always changing via technology, medicine, cultural aspects, environmental, and so on.

Yup...anything that isn't exactly the same as how things are, or how "normal" people are, will destroy society, and it's a good thing ebola/AIDS/SARS/whatever will fix it.

 

[P-89 Scorpion]

* Something to consider is that the American conception of Japan's economy as a tortured, malaise-ridden mess, is not factually accurate. Japan's unemployment rate is 3.5%, compared to the United States' 5.9%. Other economic measures are roughly what you'd expect factoring in population and resource accessibility.



Sorry Ross but your wrong here Japan's economy is in the toilet and it's unemployment is high for the working age population.

Japan has an ageing and shrinking population they have only 13% of there population between 0-14 while it's 23% above 65 compared to the USA were it's 20% 0-14 and 13% above 65.

When you have more people leaving the workplace than entering plus little immigration and your unemployment rate is still 3.5% that is not a good place to be.

 

[Baresark]

Is it just me or is society always hating against "remixes" of normal day activities?

- Comics are basically picture books for teens and adults
- Video-Games are interactable films and/or books
- And now cosplaying, which is more or less, as the article says, the same as sports fans pretending to be a part of their favourite sports team

From what I make of it, humans are afraid of change, which is bad as our cultures, our world, is always changing via technology, medicine, cultural aspects, environmental, and so on.

Eh, humans have, by and large, always been afraid of change in some degree. People seek to be comfortable and they get understandably upset by it. At work, there is this 45 year old fat white guy who espouses how rap was better back in the late 80's and early 90's. And sure, there was some fine rap to be had back in day, but that doesn't mean that since it's different today that it's worse. It's just different. It's that difference that people (even young people) innately fear. No kid wants to move to a new town, for instance. When I was a kid we moved several times and I hated it. Nothing really changed all that much: new house, new school, new friends, but it was by and large the exact same life from one school to another. A person who grows up on a farm often times ends up owning that or another farm. I grew up in a small town and I couldn't stand moving to NYC or Philly. Cultures have always changed and progressed as long as we have been recording history. It's no worse today than it was 500 years ago. It's also no better, at least in terms of cultural evolution.

OT: This one is a bit stretching (as it's hardly a debate), just like James Pethokoukis was stretching when he speciously connected the rise in Cosplay to proof of the worsening economy. He might as well have blame the rise in availability of "Gluten Free" foods on the supermarket shelves while your at it. The economy is getting better, but one of the issues is that college is as much a gamble as it is a sure thing. The cost has become prohibitively expensive (which is a good part on the blame of the institutions themselves). From 2007-2012 the average cost of college went up by 20% annually. And yet education didn't necessarily get better and job prospects worsened (technically) as the need for getting a job below a certain salary became an untenable position to be in. I'm going to be working towards a bachelors degree, but I'm using my jobs reimbursement to pay for it. It'll take a few years at this point (a few more than it would if I could go outright), but I'll get it and won't owe anything. I got a pretty good IT job, despite not having a degree in it because of my level of experience. My girlfriend is in her second year of her post grad and won't owe any money because she is extremely smart and not willing to let debt be placed on her for something that is not a sure thing. Also, her parents wouldn't let her go to NYU because they are smarter than that, so she went to another school that was just as good in every educational way but was able to obtain far more grants for. I'm rambling, so I'll shut up.

Guess there wasn't much to talk about. But debating an article that doesn't have much basis in reality in the first place is less than this column normally shoots for. But it was still an enjoyable read.

 

[Ihateregistering1]

Actually pretty good article, but if I had to theorize why people who dress up as comic, anime and VG characters are treated so much differently than people who paint themselves for sports, I'd honestly have to say: reality.

You can argue all you want about the difference it makes, but in the end, those people up in the stands rooting for a Football team are rooting for an actual, existing thing, complete with real people playing a real game. At the end of the day, the stuff in video games, comic books, anime, movies, etc. is just fiction; none of it is real. Because of this, I think people look at something that is actually real as being more "worthy" of obsessive fandom than something that is, ultimately, all made up.

 

[r_Chance]

Actually pretty good article, but if I had to theorize why people who dress up as comic, anime and VG characters are treated so much differently than people who paint themselves for sports, I'd honestly have to say: reality.

You can argue all you want about the difference it makes, but in the end, those people up in the stands rooting for a Football team are rooting for an actual, existing thing, complete with real people playing a real game. At the end of the day, the stuff in video games, comic books, anime, movies, etc. is just fiction; none of it is real. Because of this, I think people look at something that is actually real as being more "worthy" of obsessive fandom than something that is, ultimately, all made up.

On a site centered on video games you find something grounded, very loosely, in reality more worthy of "obsessive" fandom than something fictional... I take it the irony is not lost here... or are videogames more "real" than comics or anime? Anime, comics, videogames and professional football all offer an entertainment product. None of them are necessary or needed as anything other than entertainment. And people obsess about all four. None of them is a sign of economic issues. They are just more, or less, culturally acceptable. The rise of cosplay is a sign of cultural borrowing. Not "economic malaise".

 

[UberPubert]

On a site centered on video games you find something grounded, very loosely, in reality more worthy of "obsessive" fandom than something fictional... I take it the irony is not lost here... or are videogames more "real" than comics or anime?

Ugh, I really didn't want to do this...

Yes, sports are significantly more real than escapist fiction. The rise and fall of teams, the triumph of individuals, and the repercussions of serious events are far more dramatic to some people when it happens in real life than when it's contrived by a writer.

The hype, the rivalries, and the merchandising surrounding sports may be a little inflated for dramatic effect, but don't act like it's wrestling - and especially don't act like it's vidjagames.

Anime, comics, videogames and professional football all offer an entertainment product.

And the distinction is between fiction and nonfiction, not entertainment value. The inflated sense of importance by sports fans can be easily interpreted as obsessive or escapist, but it's still attached to something real.

None of them are necessary or needed as anything other than entertainment. And people obsess about all four. None of them is a sign of economic issues. They are just more, or less, culturally acceptable. The rise of cosplay is a sign of cultural borrowing. Not "economic malaise".

The argument being put forth is not that cosplay is not culturally acceptable, the observation being made is that is how young people increasingly choose to spend their time and that this has occurred in Japan as well where young people don't have as many opportunities for work, because of the arguably stagnating economy.

This is why the entire article Rossal has posted is wrong, it's speaking past the original author and ignoring what their actual points are.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

You can argue all you want about the difference it makes, but in the end, those people up in the stands rooting for a Football team are rooting for an actual, existing thing, complete with real people playing a real game. At the end of the day, the stuff in video games, comic books, anime, movies, etc. is just fiction; none of it is real. Because of this, I think people look at something that is actually real as being more "worthy" of obsessive fandom than something that is, ultimately, all made up.

Professional sportspeople are in their own fantasy which they think is real. That's much worse than cosplayers, who at least know that their fantasy is a fantasy.

Take a native from the Amazon out of his environment to watch a game of football and he'd be confused as hell. Guys pretending to be in battle? What the hell for? Why would you treat a game like it's the most important thing on earth? Win or lose the only thing hurt is your ego.

 

[r_Chance]

On a site centered on video games you find something grounded, very loosely, in reality more worthy of "obsessive" fandom than something fictional... I take it the irony is not lost here... or are videogames more "real" than comics or anime?

Ugh, I really didn't want to do this...

Then you probably shouldn't have

Yes, sports are significantly more real than escapist fiction. The rise and fall of teams, the triumph of individuals, and the repercussions of serious events are far more dramatic to some people when it happens in real life than when it's contrived by a writer.

So football players are "more real" than authors, artists, programmers, and so on? I assure you the fans who participate in cosplay are fans of the creative talent and companies behind the characters they portray be they derived from anime, manga, comics, books, television or movies.

The hype, the rivalries, and the merchandising surrounding sports may be a little inflated for dramatic effect, but don't act like it's wrestling - and especially don't act like it's vidjagames.

You brought up wrestling, not me Hype, rivalry, merchandising... sounds a lot like anime, manga, comics, videogames. *sigh* Book authors miss out on some of that I guess. I am a big fan of Glen Cook and Jim Butcher (among other current authors) but I don't have a tee shirt for either I am also a fan of Epic, Id, Bethesda and Bioware, among others, and I do own some of their merchandise. Besides the games. I can still hear the echoes of the arguments between fans of Quake III and UT. I liked both personally. No rivalry there I guess... well, maybe some.

Anime, comics, videogames and professional football all offer an entertainment product.

And the distinction is between fiction and nonfiction, not entertainment value. The inflated sense of importance by sports fans can be easily interpreted as obsessive or escapist, but it's still attached to something real.

None of them are necessary or needed as anything other than entertainment. And people obsess about all four. None of them is a sign of economic issues. They are just more, or less, culturally acceptable. The rise of cosplay is a sign of cultural borrowing. Not "economic malaise".

The argument being put forth is not that cosplay is not culturally acceptable, the observation being made is that is how young people increasingly choose to spend their time and that this has occurred in Japan as well where young people don't have as many opportunities for work, because of the arguably stagnating economy.

His observation is based on two unrelated events, the rise of cosplay and current economic issues. That's my observation. The relatively close proximity in time of the two things does not make for a causal relationship. There is no evidence of a relationship. The author can speculate all he wants. You could posit a relationship between the rise in popularity of comic book movies and the decline of American power in the last decade too. That would not make it true. Or even remotely reasonable.

This is why the entire article Rossal has posted is wrong, it's speaking past the original author and ignoring what their actual points are.

I disagree. He's pointing out the lack of causation (or any relationship really) between hard economic times and the rise of a phenomenon borrowed from another culture. Football fandom is well established and accepted. Cosplay is new and "different". Why not attribute sports fandom to economic hard times? Or swing dancing? Or movies? Or rock and roll? They have all been seen as the harbingers of some problem, economic or social. When they were new and different.

*edit* I understand your argument and find it reasonable, and on the surface tempting. In the end there are too many reasons against it.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Whilst I will be amongst the first to wave the flag of the right to self-promotion and expression, I have been a little peery of cosplay in general. I don't think it's harmful in any way, shape, or form, but I do believe that it is fairly symptomatic of the larger problem of being a cog in the mass consumption machine.

I think there was a study 5 years back, and it showed that as of the late 2000s the average exposure a person has in a developed nation is about 1.8 hours of advertisement per day. This idea that there is a million pressures on how to dress, what to wear, how to rate others on presentation, how to act, what is desireable, being told what is necessary, so on and so forth.

I think there is a direct correlation to the rise of cosplay and the modern world of advertisement and consumption, and I think it is because people (young people particular) feel at odds with how they feel they should look, act or be judged by others.

I doubt that in a society that put less pressures on having the right dress, the right perfume, the right haircut, the right pair of shoes, etc ... I doubt cosplay would be as big a thing as it is now. But in the same way that buying into a perfectly constructed corporate image of how to be is dangerous for self-esteem, I think that the same dangers can be found into looking into the fantastic to find role models to emulate to what would amount in any other situation to be a fairly creepy degree.

I think cosplay is fun, I think that's what it's meant to be, but I think the reason why it's fun is because it rebels against consumer culture by EMULATING consumer culture. The world within the looking glass. But I doubt it would be so popular if there wasn't such a well designed corporate slogan of 'how to be, or else ...'

 

[UberPubert]

So football players are "more real" than authors, artists, programmers, and so on? I assure you the fans who participate in cosplay are fans of the creative talent and companies behind the characters they portray be they derived from anime, manga, comics, books, television or movies.

The difference is rather clear: The athletes, teams and coaches being rooted for in sports are active participants in the entertainment, rather than just creators or contributors.

You brought up wrestling, not me Hype, rivalry, merchandising... sounds a lot like anime, manga, comics, videogames.

And as far as semi-intangible fluff surrounding the entertainment product it's about all they have in common.

His observation is based on two unrelated events, the rise of cosplay and current economic issues. That's my observation. The relatively close proximity in time of the two things does not make for a causal relationship. There is no evidence of a relationship. The author can speculate all he wants. You could posit a relationship between the rise in popularity of comic book movies and the decline of American power in the last decade too. That would not make it true. Or even remotely reasonable.

Yes, the article is speculative, but it's not unreasonable. A rise of escapism in young people in the face of their harsh economic reality isn't that far-fetched, and because he's not drawing hard conclusions he doesn't need hard evidence.

I disagree. He's pointing out the lack of causation (or any relationship really) between hard economic times and the rise of a phenomenon borrowed from another culture. Football fandom is well established and accepted. Cosplay is new and "different". Why not attribute sports fandom to economic hard times? Or swing dancing? Or movies? Or rock and roll? They have all been seen as the harbingers of some problem, economic or social. When they were new and different.

The difference is that, if anything, football fandom is on the decline (though still quite strong) and cosplay is growing in popularity, and in drawing the parallel to it's roots in Japan I don't think he's implying it's new or different at all, just another form of heavy escapism on the rise even further detached from it's predecessors. And to be perfectly clear: He never blamed cosplay, if anything he was sympathetic to young people and whatever healthy outlet they chose.

This is not an angry man ranting on his lawn, it's just someone paying very close attention to the economic states of America and Japan, as well the younger generation upon whom economic growth relies, and making an observation.

 

[Ihateregistering1]

You can argue all you want about the difference it makes, but in the end, those people up in the stands rooting for a Football team are rooting for an actual, existing thing, complete with real people playing a real game. At the end of the day, the stuff in video games, comic books, anime, movies, etc. is just fiction; none of it is real. Because of this, I think people look at something that is actually real as being more "worthy" of obsessive fandom than something that is, ultimately, all made up.

Professional sportspeople are in their own fantasy which they think is real. That's much worse than cosplayers, who at least know that their fantasy is a fantasy.

Take a native from the Amazon out of his environment to watch a game of football and he'd be confused as hell. Guys pretending to be in battle? What the hell for? Why would you treat a game like it's the most important thing on earth? Win or lose the only thing hurt is your ego.

Huh? No, a Football player playing Football is actually playing Football, he's not fantasizing that he's playing a sport. When he catches a ball, he catches a ball, when he gets hit, he gets hit. When you play a video game or read a comic book (or regular book), no one is really getting shot, aliens aren't really invading, etc.

The fact that a person unfamiliar with sports wouldn't understand it is irrelevant, but our Amazonian friend would still understand the difference between actual people engaged in an actual competition, and people dressing up as make-believe characters. It doesn't mean one of those is more right or better than the others, it's simply reality vs. fantasy.

So football players are "more real" than authors, artists, programmers, and so on? I assure you the fans who participate in cosplay are fans of the creative talent and companies behind the characters they portray be they derived from anime, manga, comics, books, television or movies.

No, but cosplayers aren't dressing up as George RR Martin, JRR Tolkien, George Lucas, etc. they are dressing up as fictional characters that those people created, the keyword being "fictional". Someone who wears an Aaron Rodgers jersey isn't really 'dressing up' like Aaron Rodgers, they are showing their support for someone who is a living, breathing, human being, and for the team composed of other living, breathing human beings, not works of fiction. Again, this doesn't make one more 'correct' or better than the other, just different.

 

[COMaestro]

Yes, sports are significantly more real than escapist fiction. The rise and fall of teams, the triumph of individuals, and the repercussions of serious events are far more dramatic to some people when it happens in real life than when it's contrived by a writer.

So football players are "more real" than authors, artists, programmers, and so on? I assure you the fans who participate in cosplay are fans of the creative talent and companies behind the characters they portray be they derived from anime, manga, comics, books, television or movies.

This is not an accurate comparison. I think most cosplayers could not give you two or three names of people who actually worked on the anime/video game that they are cosplaying from. Sure, they may be fans of the studio that produced the work, but they are fans of the product first, and the characters in that product are fictional, not real.

If a football quarterback throws a pass which is caught by a receiver who runs down the rest of the field to score, that is real people accomplishing something through their own abilities. If Spike Spiegel fights off a dozen mooks, that has nothing to do with his skills or abilities because the scene was written to work that way by the authors. A person wearing a football jersey is showing their support for that team, a group of real people who play a real game. People who dress up as Spike may just think he's a cool character and like how he was portrayed, but he's still just a fictional character who has never truly done anything. This goes for any characters in books, movies, anime or games. Hence, football is more "real" than any of the other listed entertainments in your post.

EDIT: Oh and full disclosure, I write this as a person who has cosplayed as a variety of characters over the years and who gets zero enjoyment from watching any professional sports. Or amateur sports for that matter.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

You can argue all you want about the difference it makes, but in the end, those people up in the stands rooting for a Football team are rooting for an actual, existing thing, complete with real people playing a real game. At the end of the day, the stuff in video games, comic books, anime, movies, etc. is just fiction; none of it is real. Because of this, I think people look at something that is actually real as being more "worthy" of obsessive fandom than something that is, ultimately, all made up.

Professional sportspeople are in their own fantasy which they think is real. That's much worse than cosplayers, who at least know that their fantasy is a fantasy.

Take a native from the Amazon out of his environment to watch a game of football and he'd be confused as hell. Guys pretending to be in battle? What the hell for? Why would you treat a game like it's the most important thing on earth? Win or lose the only thing hurt is your ego.

Huh? No, a Football player playing Football is actually playing Football, he's not fantasizing that he's playing a sport. When he catches a ball, he catches a ball, when he gets hit, he gets hit. When you play a video game or read a comic book (or regular book), no one is really getting shot, aliens aren't really invading, etc.

The fact that a person unfamiliar with sports wouldn't understand it is irrelevant, but our Amazonian friend would still understand the difference between actual people engaged in an actual competition, and people dressing up as make-believe characters. It doesn't mean one of those is more right or better than the others, it's simply reality vs. fantasy.

That wasn't what I meant. The outcomes of a football game are irrelevant, unless you're playing in rural India to feed your family or survive (which doesn't happen). Yet when you watch it you'd think that universal armaggeddon was at stake. Coaches walking around with wrinkly foreheads looking incredibly serious, players gesticulating wildly and ecstatically when they score, fans jumping up and down roaring after a goal. They are all fantasising that it's important while in fact, it's pretty ridiculous and not important at all. To THEM it is important - which is exactly the same as what cosplayers feel.