More Australian Stores Pull The Elder Scrolls Online From Shelves

[Steven Bogos]

More Australian Stores Pull The Elder Scrolls Online From Shelves

A source at a prominent Australian retailer stated the only reason The Elder Scrolls Online would be pulled was if it was going free-to-play.

Major Australian retailers JB Hi-Fi and Harvey Norman have games.on.net [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/139375-The-Elder-Scrolls-Online-Pulled-From-Shelves-at-EB-Games-Australia], specifically stated that the only reason the game would be pulled "is because it has become a free product".

The Harvey Norman source confirmed that "all game cards and copies [of TESO] were pulled out of Harvey Norman," and a JB Hi-Fi source gave a similar story: "all copies of TESO have been pulled from our shelves as of late last week, and are to be kept out back until further notice." It's the same thing we were hearing from EB Games the other week, although EB officially assured us that it was due to "regular stock recall procedures."

Meanwhile, Harvey Norman refuted that claim, stating that if the game was being brought out in a different format, it'd have a price drop, not a total recall [http://cdn.themis-media.com/media/global/images/library/deriv/873/873735.jpg].

It's also worth noting that Bethesda, while obviously being very quiet on the matter, did (just as quietly) remove the option for six month subscriptions [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/139272-Elder-Scrolls-Online-May-Be-Going-Free-to-Play], leaving only 30 and 90 day billing options.

The free-to-play evidence is starting to pile up for The Elder Scrolls Online, and it seems like it is only a matter of time before Bethesda officially announces it. We've reached out to Bethesda for an official comment.

Source: games.on.net [http://games.on.net/2015/01/the-elder-scrolls-online-f2p-harvey-norman/]

Permalink

 

[jollybarracuda]

Awesome, I hope it really does go free to play soon. It was never a game I didn't enjoy (played the open beta twice), it was just a game I couldn't see myself paying monthly for. I would have gotten the game in a heartbeat if it had a Guild Wars 2 business model.

So with that, i'm hoping it goes F2P sooner rather than later, and gets a surge of success from it and Zenimax does well.

 

[Briantb]

So this is only going on in Australia?

 

[Remus]

So this is only going on in Australia?

Makes you think Australia might have something against videogames. Oh wait, IT DOES!

 

[Starke]

So this is only going on in Australia?

Yeah, which makes the whole, "going F2P thing" seem kinda unlikely.

That said, there is no Australian support for the game, they have to connect through the NA server. It's possible, with Australia's idiotic internet regulation the game is actually going to be pulled from there. It's also possible the EB thing is on the level and some derps at Harvey Norman and JB Hi-Fi freaked out and pulled it too.

That these recalls aren't also happening in the EU or the States either indicates there's something really weird about Aussie Consumer Protection laws, or this is knock on of morons. But, we'll see.

EDIT: I get the instinct to say, "they must know something we don't." But, really, when you look at who is doing the thing and saying, "well they must be the only people in the world who know this is coming," the argument starts to sound less credible.

 

[Sight Unseen]

Here we go again with these anonymous "sources" telling a rumour to a random games website nobody has ever heard and then having all the "real" news websites reporting on it like it's actually news.

Choo Choo.

 

[Sixcess]

I can't see it. Maybe a transition to a Buy-to-Play model to coincide with the release of the game on consoles, but not a straight leap to F2P. Not this quick.

 

[Starke]

I can't see it. Maybe a transition to a Buy-to-Play model to coincide with the release of the game on consoles, but not a straight leap to F2P. Not this quick.

If you're doing a buy to play transition you'd pull the time cards, not the boxed copies. If you're doing either conversion, you actually have access to this information, then you'd probably not be the only person in the world to know, when you're in Australia.

The six month sub going away could be a sign of a B2P transition... though, even in a F2P or B2P setup, the subscription fees frequently stick around anyway (see TOR, STO, Champions Online, DCUO, Age of Conan, Anarchy Online, and nearly every other boxed game that went F2P; hell, even Secret World still has a sub option). So, taking that out isn't really evidence of anything more drastic than, they've crunched the numbers, and they lose more money on the six month subs than they make up for in month to month purchases. Which, might actually suggest an unusually high retention.

Think about it this way, if you can sell the six month sub for 60 bucks (I think), and your average month to month buyer will be around for more than 4... it's not a good deal for you as the developer/publisher. You'll make more money pushing month to month (90), than from a lump sum payment.

Saying, "oh, we're going F2P" doesn't make sense, because that indicates you're not going to pull the six month subs, because you need that money right now. And, it's more valuable to have a freeloader for 2 months than roll the dice and see if they actually stick around for more than 2.

At the end, we still have a situation where, Australian retailers would be the only ones to know that this is going F2P, and then they decide to pull their product. If the game was going F2P, and stores could ship it back to the publisher, you'd expect to see mass recalls in the US, from places like Gamestop. But... nothing. Which suggests there's a rumor going around in Australia, but nowhere else... which does wonders for screwing with the entire situation's credibility.

 

[Sight Unseen]

I can't see it. Maybe a transition to a Buy-to-Play model to coincide with the release of the game on consoles, but not a straight leap to F2P. Not this quick.

If you're doing a buy to play transition you'd pull the time cards, not the boxed copies. If you're doing either conversion, you actually have access to this information, then you'd probably not be the only person in the world to know, when you're in Australia.

The six month sub going away could be a sign of a B2P transition... though, even in a F2P or B2P setup, the subscription fees frequently stick around anyway (see TOR, STO, Champions Online, DCUO, Age of Conan, Anarchy Online, and nearly every other boxed game that went F2P; hell, even Secret World still has a sub option). So, taking that out isn't really evidence of anything more drastic than, they've crunched the numbers, and they lose more money on the six month subs than they make up for in month to month purchases. Which, might actually suggest an unusually high retention.

Think about it this way, if you can sell the six month sub for 60 bucks (I think), and your average month to month buyer will be around for more than 4... it's not a good deal for you as the developer/publisher. You'll make more money pushing month to month (90), than from a lump sum payment.

Saying, "oh, we're going F2P" doesn't make sense, because that indicates you're not going to pull the six month subs, because you need that money right now. And, it's more valuable to have a freeloader for 2 months than roll the dice and see if they actually stick around for more than 2.

At the end, we still have a situation where, Australian retailers would be the only ones to know that this is going F2P, and then they decide to pull their product. If the game was going F2P, and stores could ship it back to the publisher, you'd expect to see mass recalls in the US, from places like Gamestop. But... nothing. Which suggests there's a rumor going around in Australia, but nowhere else... which does wonders for screwing with the entire situation's credibility.

You. I like you. Thank you for being another person to finally breathe some sanity into this website's coverage of ESO, where the only coverage ESO seems to get since it launched is uncredible f2p rumours.

 

[Steven Bogos]

So this is only going on in Australia?

Yeah, which makes the whole, "going F2P thing" seem kinda unlikely.

That said, there is no Australian support for the game, they have to connect through the NA server. It's possible, with Australia's idiotic internet regulation the game is actually going to be pulled from there. It's also possible the EB thing is on the level and some derps at Harvey Norman and JB Hi-Fi freaked out and pulled it too.

That these recalls aren't also happening in the EU or the States either indicates there's something really weird about Aussie Consumer Protection laws, or this is knock on of morons. But, we'll see.

EDIT: I get the instinct to say, "they must know something we don't." But, really, when you look at who is doing the thing and saying, "well they must be the only people in the world who know this is coming," the argument starts to sound less credible.

Australia has really strict (IE: very consumer friendly) consumer protection laws. They have worked in our favour when developers have tried to pull shady shit, or sell us broken games (IE: EA was forced to give Australians full refunds for SimCity, as it didn't work as advertised on launch).

I would not be surprised if there are some pretty harsh laws against selling MMO's that go free-to-play, that all of these retailers are trying to avoid by selling all copies back to Bethesda.

Consumer protection law is a lot more lax in America - I wouldn't be surprised if many American retailer simply opt to keep selling the box copy of the game even when they know full well that it's free-to-play, just to catch some unsuspecting suckers.

 

[Nergui]

These possibilities are purely speculation.

1. EBGames is up to something dodgy. They most likely bought the copies of the game along with the game cards in $US and will likely be refunded the same amount, in $US. However, suppose their copies were bought at $45US ($45AUD) and now refunded at $45US ($54AUD).

2. Due to a lack of retailer interest starting around 2008 and recently the ease and lower cost of digital purchasing, the retail PC game market in Australia has flatlined. They only have themselves to blame.

Captcha - best seller
(captcha is being sarcastic)

EDIT - Steven Bogos is most likely correct.

 

[Starke]

So this is only going on in Australia?

Yeah, which makes the whole, "going F2P thing" seem kinda unlikely.

That said, there is no Australian support for the game, they have to connect through the NA server. It's possible, with Australia's idiotic internet regulation the game is actually going to be pulled from there. It's also possible the EB thing is on the level and some derps at Harvey Norman and JB Hi-Fi freaked out and pulled it too.

That these recalls aren't also happening in the EU or the States either indicates there's something really weird about Aussie Consumer Protection laws, or this is knock on of morons. But, we'll see.

EDIT: I get the instinct to say, "they must know something we don't." But, really, when you look at who is doing the thing and saying, "well they must be the only people in the world who know this is coming," the argument starts to sound less credible.

Australia has really strict (IE: very consumer friendly) consumer protection laws. They have worked in our favour when developers have tried to pull shady shit, or sell us broken games (IE: EA was forced to give Australians full refunds for SimCity, as it didn't work as advertised on launch).

I would not be surprised if there are some pretty harsh laws against selling MMO's that go free-to-play, that all of these retailers are trying to avoid by selling all copies back to Bethesda.

Consumer protection law is a lot more lax in America - I wouldn't be surprised if many American retailer simply opt to keep selling the box copy of the game even when they know full well that it's free-to-play, just to catch some unsuspecting suckers.

That would also require that Aussie consumer protection laws have some kind of really weird confidentiality clauses. It also raises questions like, "why didn't we hear about this when was reaching the end of it's sub lifespan?" And, of course, "why is it only these retailers and not all of them?"

It also requires that Australian Consumer protection laws are actually stricter than in the EU, which is possible, but again, we should be seeing recalls there too.

I'll agree something weird is going on. But, I don't think it's a sign of incoming F2P transitions.

 

[Thaluikhain]

More censorship?

Will New Zealand never learn?

 

[Starke]

Actually, I wonder if the derp at Harvey Norman got confused. We know the console release is around the corner. It's possible someone flagged it as getting a new edition coming out, and so they're pulling it with the hopes of having some trade in deal with the distributor... I am just guessing here, though.

 

[Starke]

You. I like you. Thank you for being another person to finally breathe some sanity into this website's coverage of ESO, where the only coverage ESO seems to get since it launched is uncredible f2p rumours.

In all honesty, I get where the coverage comes from, and it's not just The Escapist. These days, a box 'n sub MMO is doomed in public opinion before it even launches. It's the way the market's been going for about seven years now. A dev launches their super-big-epic-MMO-of-all-time... and they croon about how it's going to be the one to go out and take down WoW... and then it goes free to play before celebrating it's first anniversary.

World of Warcraft showed a lot of publishers that you could actually make money with an MMO. Before that, a successful MMO was expected to pull in 50-100k players. That was the high bar. WoW wandered in, raked in 12 million (eventually) and publishers lost their minds.

MMOs also represent a massive middle finger to pirates. Whatever your feelings on the subject, publishers saw them as impossible to pirate.

So, then we saw the wave of games that were honestly expecting to just stick out their hand and pull in WoW based numbers by copying a few elements out of WoW, or taking their own game and appending "Online" to the end. It's where we've gotten things like TOR being both the fastest selling MMO in history and failing to meet expectations at the same time.

The result has been players looking at Box n' Sub MMOs as something they shouldn't spend money on. Where someone might have bought and subscribed to a game 12 years ago, today they won't because of course it will go free to play, so just wait a couple months and then poke it with a stick when it's free.

Thing is, the gamers, and the journalists aren't that separate. Ultimately, if a gamer expects a game to go free to play, they'll be looking for evidence to support their belief, confirmation bias... or, what used to be called "the belief engine." In that, anything weird happens and you'll have a journalist somewhere saying, "oh, this must be going free to play." And, of course, once one person offers up a biased opinion that sounds like a reasonable explanation at a glance, it's much easier to take that as fact and report it, rather than sitting back and thinking about it. "Of course the six month sub disappearing is a sign that the game is in trouble." ...because games that are in trouble don't want your money?

It could be my memory messing with me, but I could have sworn Star Trek Online actually put their Lifetime sub on a weekend sale about a week before announcing they were going to transition to Free to Play.

If your game's retention is terrible, and the population is flagging, you want to maximize income. One way is by tricking people into buying the longer subs they're never going to use. You get more money from them than you would on a month to month.

Now, the six month sub might mean the subscriptions will be schismed between the PC and console releases. So, if you're playing on an Xbone, or on a PS4 you need a different subscription (through Microsoft or Sony) from your PC copy. We already know the console versions will run on separate servers from the PC releases. So, this could be ZOS saving themselves from a headache in a couple months. But, I'm guessing. I don't know.

 

[infohippie]

More censorship?

Will New Zealand never learn?

Them's fightin' words, mister!


I hope this is indeed a sign of ESO going F2P. I have been waiting for that for a while, since I would like to try it out but I will not pay a monthly sub for a game unless it is utterly amazing.

 

[Sight Unseen]

You. I like you. Thank you for being another person to finally breathe some sanity into this website's coverage of ESO, where the only coverage ESO seems to get since it launched is uncredible f2p rumours.

In all honesty, I get where the coverage comes from, and it's not just The Escapist. These days, a box 'n sub MMO is doomed in public opinion before it even launches. It's the way the market's been going for about seven years now. A dev launches their super-big-epic-MMO-of-all-time... and they croon about how it's going to be the one to go out and take down WoW... and then it goes free to play before celebrating it's first anniversary.

World of Warcraft showed a lot of publishers that you could actually make money with an MMO. Before that, a successful MMO was expected to pull in 50-100k players. That was the high bar. WoW wandered in, raked in 12 million (eventually) and publishers lost their minds.

MMOs also represent a massive middle finger to pirates. Whatever your feelings on the subject, publishers saw them as impossible to pirate.

So, then we saw the wave of games that were honestly expecting to just stick out their hand and pull in WoW based numbers by copying a few elements out of WoW, or taking their own game and appending "Online" to the end. It's where we've gotten things like TOR being both the fastest selling MMO in history and failing to meet expectations at the same time.

The result has been players looking at Box n' Sub MMOs as something they shouldn't spend money on. Where someone might have bought and subscribed to a game 12 years ago, today they won't because of course it will go free to play, so just wait a couple months and then poke it with a stick when it's free.

Thing is, the gamers, and the journalists aren't that separate. Ultimately, if a gamer expects a game to go free to play, they'll be looking for evidence to support their belief, confirmation bias... or, what used to be called "the belief engine." In that, anything weird happens and you'll have a journalist somewhere saying, "oh, this must be going free to play." And, of course, once one person offers up a biased opinion that sounds like a reasonable explanation at a glance, it's much easier to take that as fact and report it, rather than sitting back and thinking about it. "Of course the six month sub disappearing is a sign that the game is in trouble." ...because games that are in trouble don't want your money?

It could be my memory messing with me, but I could have sworn Star Trek Online actually put their Lifetime sub on a weekend sale about a week before announcing they were going to transition to Free to Play.

If your game's retention is terrible, and the population is flagging, you want to maximize income. One way is by tricking people into buying the longer subs they're never going to use. You get more money from them than you would on a month to month.

Now, the six month sub might mean the subscriptions will be schismed between the PC and console releases. So, if you're playing on an Xbone, or on a PS4 you need a different subscription (through Microsoft or Sony) from your PC copy. We already know the console versions will run on separate servers from the PC releases. So, this could be ZOS saving themselves from a headache in a couple months. But, I'm guessing. I don't know.

The best explanation that I've found for the removal of the 6 month sub was that PS+ subscriptions and Xbox Live subscriptions go on a 30 day, 90 day, and 1 year basis. And that in order to avoid confusion with subscriptions they removed the 6 month so that they would have parity with the console models (except for the 1 year option). Or it could just be what Zenimax said it was and that most people preferred the 1 and 3 month subs so they removed the 6 month. But when does the developer ever tell the truth about money? (/sarcasm)

That said I agree with most of what you stated here and would also add that it would be incredibly stupid for Zenimax Online to switch to free-to-play right now. I don't know if you've been playing or following the development of ESO, but Update 6 is going onto the test servers sometime this month. Update 6 is by far ESOs biggest update so far and it will be adding the Justice System, where you'll be able to steal from and murder NPCs and eventually add a PVP guards vs thieves thing. It's also adding in the Champion System, which will eventually replace Veteran Ranks and completely overhaul the endgame. Alongside this are a TON of gameplay, skill, and balance changes that should make ESO much more dynamic and customiseable. They're also releasing the console version of the game some time after the Champion and Justice systems are implemented and finalized.

Both Update 6 and the console version are huge and should bring in more sales. It will also force the reviewers to come back again and see how the console version holds up. If they did a good job with it, then maybe the game will finally get some good reviews (that it IMO deserves) and maybe start to turn public opinion back in a more positive direction. There is absolutely no reason to switch to F2P until this happens because they'll be cutting themselves out of a lot of subscription money. Even if the game is currently losing money (which I don't really think it is, this game wasn't a smash hit by any means but it has a very dedicated community) it makes the most sense financially to wait a few months and see how those updates fare with the public and the press before slamming the giant "ABORT TO F2P" button.

That said, I really wish that Zenimax would just come out and say "this game is not going f2p in the near future" to get everyone to shut the hell up about it. But they won't because they've made it a public policy to not comment on rumours.

 

[Sight Unseen]

More censorship?

Will New Zealand never learn?

Them's fightin' words, mister!


I hope this is indeed a sign of ESO going F2P. I have been waiting for that for a while, since I would like to try it out but I will not pay a monthly sub for a game unless it is utterly amazing.

Why not buy the game cheap during a steam sale or Amazon or such, get the free month of sub that comes with it, play it to your hearts content for a month and then decide whether it's worth continuing or not? You can easily get $20-30 worth of enjoyment out of ESO in a month and if you like it then you'll help keep the game alive instead of waiting for it to fail like a vulture circling its prey like all the other naysayers.

 

[Starke]

That said, I really wish that Zenimax would just come out and say "this game is not going f2p in the near future" to get everyone to shut the hell up about it. But they won't because they've made it a public policy to not comment on rumours.

I could have sworn they have, a couple times. But, because that's SOP even for a game that is sliding down the tubes...

Internally, you can usually see a game sliding towards F2P when production deadlines get completely blown. The devs will say, "this thing is coming in a month/45 days/three months, and then the deadline comes and goes with absolutely no support. It's indicative of a publisher yanking people off of the project to move them elsewhere, or just cutting losses. ESO's running... roughly 25-30 days behind schedule right now. Which isn't actually bad, especially given some of the things that have come up. The console releases got shoved back, but given the wave of those we saw last years, I'm less inclined to say it's a sign of the end times. Provisioning was supposed to be last month... it's MIA, Justice System got tentatively penciled in for late December, with Champion being pushed for January... looks like both of those have been pushed back a month... so, not the end of the world. Unlike, say, Secret World's "six months after launch" actually meaning, "a little after our second anniversary."

I hope this is indeed a sign of ESO going F2P. I have been waiting for that for a while, since I would like to try it out but I will not pay a monthly sub for a game unless it is utterly amazing.

If you'd asked me at launch, I would have said, "no, I want to recommend this game, but it's just not there." Now? There's certainly worse ways to spend 15 bucks. If you like the borderline MMO nature of The Elder Scrolls franchise anyway, or enjoy MMOs in general, it's certainly worth looking at.

 

[Sight Unseen]

That said, I really wish that Zenimax would just come out and say "this game is not going f2p in the near future" to get everyone to shut the hell up about it. But they won't because they've made it a public policy to not comment on rumours.

I could have sworn they have, a couple times. But, because that's SOP even for a game that is sliding down the tubes...

Internally, you can usually see a game sliding towards F2P when production deadlines get completely blown. The devs will say, "this thing is coming in a month/45 days/three months, and then the deadline comes and goes with absolutely no support. It's indicative of a publisher yanking people off of the project to move them elsewhere, or just cutting losses. ESO's running... roughly 25-30 days behind schedule right now. Which isn't actually bad, especially given some of the things that have come up. The console releases got shoved back, but given the wave of those we saw last years, I'm less inclined to say it's a sign of the end times. Provisioning was supposed to be last month... it's MIA, Justice System got tentatively penciled in for late December, with Champion being pushed for January... looks like both of those have been pushed back a month... so, not the end of the world. Unlike, say, Secret World's "six months after launch" actually meaning, "a little after our second anniversary."

I feel like the delays in this case are more a case of making sure that they get it right as opposed to stalling for time or a sign of loss of publisher faith. The champion system is such a huge overhaul to how the game works that they had to rebalance absolutely everything around this new system. They've looked at and tweaked every single skill, and replaced several of the weaker skills with new more useful skills. They've removed all of the soft caps in the game and substantially raised all of the hard caps. They've changed how all weapons and skills scale their damage to make it more clear. They have to do the best they can to balance this so that it doesn't completely break the game when it comes out.

And not only are they adding the champion system next update, they're also adding the provisioning revamp AND the justice system AND (according to rumours anyway) the veteran version of another dungeon. The provisioning revamp and the justice system are also incredibly important to get right and make sure that they're useful and fun.

On top of this, they're also making changes based on fan feed back. They recently changed how they were planning to roll out the champion system so that instead of giving all veteran characters 30 CP, they're going to give 5 CP per vet rank up to a maximum of 70 CP for a Vet14 character, since a lot of high level characters were upset that they were being given the same amount of CP as a V1.

So I think development is going well enough, hopefully. They just need to get things right and not fuck up their game with the new updates.