Pondering Adventure Games and Gameplay in Modern Gaming

Yahtzee Croshaw

New member
Aug 8, 2007
11,049
0
0
Pondering Adventure Games and Gameplay in Modern Gaming

Yahtzee is still tempted to make a new adventure game, but wonders how the gameplay should work.

Read Full Article
 

choren64

New member
Aug 2, 2011
17
0
0
See, unlike Yahtzee, I wasn't raised up on adventure games as a kid, but grew up with the simple puzzle/combat "action adventure" games like mario 64. I never really played games where the story was enphasized and the the game was about interacting with characters as opposed to kicking ghosts and goombas. From what I've noticed, Yahtzee tends to focus on a game's core story or interactions over it other aspects, like combat or level design. I can only assume this is mostly based on how he grew up playing games, just as all of us grew up playing different games of different genre's.

Maybe its because the closest thing to adventure games I've played were psychonauts or the Ben and Dan games, but I never found adventure games to be all that fun. A good story is nice, but it can really only be told once, whereas gameplay offers short bursts of variety and demands the player to adapt to different situations. It could be why I have started to appreciate random-generation more and more...
 

09philj

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 31, 2015
2,154
947
118
I've played a lot of flash and unity point and click adventure games in my time. The two absolute stand out best are those made by ScriptWelder, particularly the highly atmospheric and pant-shittingly scary Deep Sleep games. The puzzles are fairly standard stuff, but it's everything else about them, like the visuals, sound design, and story which make them great.

http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/603900
 

snave

New member
Nov 10, 2009
390
0
0
The puzzles in the second Kyrandia game are one case where I feel the puzzles made the game. Note that the first game in the series is the worst example of pure filler garbage I've ever seen in the genre and the third game is pretty average. But for whatever reason, the second got it right.

Most of the puzzles simply revolved around a single mechanic: you found a cauldron early on and could brew potions. Then you'd find chunks of a spellbook and try to piece together the lost recipes. With lateral thinking and liberal interpretation of the ingredients, most potions could be made, but even then, not all were relevant to progressing the game.

It was a mechanic at its heart so simple, but which opened up some much creative freedom within a thin set of constraints. In turn, it meant puzzles could be deep and not brute-forcable whilst still straightforward without having explicit failure states. Really, I think that's the problem with the old Adventure genre. It's damn near impossible to create a scenario that offers the trifecta: reasonable logic, non-obvious solutions and narrow scope (cough, Scribblenauts).
 

Covarr

PS Thanks
May 29, 2009
1,559
0
0
I'm not sure I like the idea that challenge is even necessary for a game to be good or engaging. When I played The Walking Dead, it was never especially difficult. In fact, I'd say it's one of the easiest games I ever played. The choices ultimately don't matter that much, because the story is designed to snap back and reconverge every now and again. In spite of that, it was one of the most engaging experiences I ever played.

The reason TWD succeeds at this is because it was never obvious what it was doing, at least in a first playthrough[footnote]As much as I adore this game, it has negative replay value. As far as I'm concerned, the only way to enjoy it is to play it once and then never touch it again, as a second playthrough actively ruins the first one[/footnote]. The choices have a way of seeming impactful, even when they ultimately aren't.

In the long run, I think this is indicative of the direction that adventure games are going to have to take to remain interesting and relevant. It can be difficult to make decent challenge in a puzzle game where the only mechanics you have available are inventory and Myst-style minigames, but to assume that difficulty is the only way to take advantage of the medium is to miss out on a lot of possibilities. What makes games different from movies is not challenge, but interactivity. Challenge is simply one form that interactivity can take. I would like to see more games experiment with different interpretations of what "interactive" means rather than just attempting to refine what's already been done.

One example of experimentation gone right is the Ace Attorney series. I thought the Ace Attorney games had stupid stories and crappy puzzles, but they were definitely innovative and had a good, unique concept, something that takes the traditional adventure game structure and turns it on its head. Historically, these games tend to have items, and you either USE item on environment, USE item on character, or USE item on other item. Then along comes Capcom and asks the question: "Why not USE item on dialogue?". This is exactly what I mean by experimentation. No game had done this before. In the hands of a more competent writer (and if it'd been more forgiving about dialogue/evidence combos because stuff that should work doesn't always), it could've been amazing.

That isn't to say I want more games that play like Phoenix Wright. I mean, I do, but that really isn't what I'm getting at. I really appreciated this franchise for the fact that it significantly expanded on the adventure formula rather than just adhering to it. That is really one of Broken Age's biggest shortcoming. It does some new things with story, but nothing about the gameplay feels new or exciting. In limiting the game to an old formula, the developers also locked themselves into the old formula's shortcomings. Simplified verbs are certainly an improvement, but they don't help the game feel actually new, just... old but a little less clunky. They certainly don't solve the biggest problems with older adventure games, namely the guess-and-check "click everything on everything" method of playing that's often needed.

My challenge to Tim Schafer, and to any other would-be adventure game developers, is to innovate gameplay. Find something completely new that turns the genre on its side. If you can integrate your story into this innovation, so much the better, but what adventure games don't need right now is new stories tied to old, flawed gameplay models. Jurassic Park: The Game may have been a giant turd, but I have far more respect for Telltale for at least trying something new with it than I do for Double Fine, whose game was a paint-by-numbers recreation of everything adventure games have gotten wrong for decades.

P.S. Thanks
 

Thanatos2k

New member
Aug 12, 2013
820
0
0
For all the shit it gets, Heavy Rain is a perfect example of a modern adventure game. Doesn't really have inventory puzzles, has lots of exploration, and all the mechanics are there purely to drive the story. And then people whined it wasn't a game. Would pointless inventory puzzles have made it a "game"?
 

Steve the Pocket

New member
Mar 30, 2009
1,649
0
0
I've long thought that a good direction to take the genre would be a game that confines the player to a fairly small environment but has much more open-ended gameplay. Rather than having a strictly linear plot where the player has to find the one way to progress to the next scene, rinse and repeat till finished, the player can pick up anything a real person could pick up, use it with anything a real person could use it with, talk to anyone and take the conversation in any direction a real person could try to, etc. And there are explicitly multiple paths to get to the end, so for example instead of punishing players for trying a solution other than the one the designer thought up, it would reward them for their resourcefulness and outside-the-box thinking. The drawback is that it would have to be developed Valve-style, with dozens of playtesters trying everything they can think of and recording the exact reasoning behind their decisions, and the game being updated accordingly.

Alternatively, if you're into the comedy side of adventure gaming, consider Jazzpunk, a game you really owe it to yourself to play. It's a short first-person game that barely has any challenge to it, but you can interact with a bunch of things that have nothing to do with the mission including a few actual sidequests. I remember your column about how it's difficult to do humor well in a game because games usually involve repetition; this game sidesteps that nicely by having pretty much everything only able to happen once -- possibly the reason why adventure games and humor have always gone well together. I think more games like Jazzpunk need to be made, and you seem to have the comedy chops to pull it off.
 

Silentpony_v1legacy

Alleged Feather-Rustler
Jun 5, 2013
6,760
0
0
I've always said certain games and genres were only ever considered good because we had nothing to compare it to.
 

CyanCat47_v1legacy

New member
Nov 26, 2014
495
0
0
Challange is all well and good in games based on skill but if a game is based on story then it should be one anyone can enjoy. the other day i was browsing PC gamer when i noticed acclaimed adventure game designer Ronald Gilbert saying that modern adventure games get bogged down in story and my immidiate thought was: for a man who is basically to adventure games what Marx is to communism you sure are clueless about them Mr. Gilbert. i get that some poeple like puzzles even though i can't stand them but i think that if one is to make a proper "adventure" game and not just a puzzle game with good writing story has to be prioritized. puzzles are what killed the genre back when because suddenly you could play something fun and get a good story rather than having to go though dull annoying puzzles that were really just find the thing that fits with the thing. I'm currently playing dragon age and often find the combat frustrating. despite loving the soty i continue to quit in spite. the combat is good maybe 1/3 of the time but at any other time it just gets in the way of the engaging characters and clever dialog. it's like eating a hot dog drowned in cetchup, occasionally delicious and tedious a lot of the time. when you make thestory a reward for gameplay you loose the ability to reach all of your potential audience.
 

maximalist566

New member
Jan 10, 2012
70
0
0
Last paragraph is pretty much the description of Ace Attorney series. Yes, it includes pieces of moon logic, but it never goes for long. My biggest frustration in quests is mostly "Where/What the fuck should I go/do?". I rarely had such problem with Ace Attorney series and most of them were in first trilogy. I think it is mostly because Ace Attorney has an understandable goal at any time - you must defend your client. To defend your client you must find evidence and find contradictions in testimony. Certain points on your road to the verdict may seem strange, but it never overwhelms you. Plus the game has 4-5 independent chapters, which also helps - no inventory oversaturation, which may happen in other quests.
 

Bob_McMillan

Elite Member
Aug 28, 2014
5,193
1,866
118
Country
Philippines
The only point and click games I played are Flash games, and involved plumbers *ahem*

Anyway, did you really just self-advertise Yahtzee? And the lonk doesn't work :p
 

flying_whimsy

New member
Dec 2, 2009
1,077
0
0
I've always liked adventure games (even now, although my aversion to moon-logic makes it hard to find decent ones).

I'm curious about one thing, though: is Portal an adventure game? I know, it's an FPS puzzle platformer. While the controls and stuff are different, it always felt like one to me. It makes me wonder if an adventure game is defined by the interface, the moon-logic, the story-telling, or something else. Something to think about, I suppose.
 

GUIGUI

New member
Feb 13, 2009
29
0
0
"I struggle to think of an example of a 'clever' inventory puzzle"
Well, there was the case of Zack and Wiki, who had technically an inventory of 1 item.
 
Jan 12, 2012
2,114
0
0
I'm reminded of Gone Home, which is something that's in that grey area of "Is it a game?" You, the player, come home to find your family home empty, and that's all I can say without spoilers.
The entire game is you walking around the house, reading notes left by members of your family and figuring out what happened from them, plus context clues like a flyer for couple's therapy in the recycling, etc. It's got a lot of thinking and realising that this bit of info gives you context for Y you saw earlier, or that using it you can access area Z. It certainly fits Yahtzee's criteria of a story you only engage with as much as you want to, as long as you can figure out how the pieces go together.

So I'd say a good non-inventory puzzle for an adventure game is one where it's not about matching the blue key to the blue door, but the right info to the right scenario. It's learning organically through talking to characters in the town and reading schedules on the bulletin board that the King's Guard is underfed and Stephen works the night shift outside the vault alone, so you could lure him away with the temptation of food and commit your heist in peace.
 

anonymousloser7777

New member
May 20, 2015
1
0
0
I can think of two adventure games that fit Yahtzee's criteria: Facade, and Sherlock Holmes: Crimes and Punishments.

Facade has you interact with an upper middle class married couple, Trip and Grace. Their marriage is falling apart; by speaking to them through text, you can figure out what is making them unhappy and hopefully save their marriage. Of course, you can make them break up if you feel that's right.

Sherlock is...screw it, I'll post the Wikipedia section:

The majority of the game involves exploring crime scenes and examining clues. Once discovered, clues are added to a "deduction board", a gameplay mechanic which involves linking pieces of information together. It will lead to possible different deductions. Once deductions are connected together, player will have a full tree of deductions. Depending on how player interpretes the clues, they will have different conclusions. Therefore the player can fail or succeed in finding the culprit. He also decides whether he wants to absolve or condemn the criminal.

The one downside of this is that you never figure out the truth of the case. Sherlock can put whoever he wants in jail, but it's ultimately the player's responsibility to get it right.
 

lacktheknack

Je suis joined jewels.
Jan 19, 2009
19,316
0
0
This is the part where I gush for a while about Myst Online.

There's no inventory puzzles, only world puzzles based on observation and experimentation. Sometimes they don't work (Minkata's "Five Paths" puzzle is pretty tedious) but when they work, HOOOOOLYYYYYYYY BALLS are they absolutely brilliant. I'll never forget the time I solved the first part of Ahnonay and literally broke the world.

As a bonus, the puzzles are designed entirely to have significance to the overarching plot threads. Why is Kadish Tolesa full of grandiose padlocks? Because Kadish was a rich, indulgent and paranoid miser who literally locked himself in his tomb. Why is Ahnonay just a great big Truman Show illusion? Because the guy who owned it wanted to use it as a magic trick. Heck, even Minkata's Five Paths was ostensibly used as Maintainer orienteering training.

So yeah. Myst Online is a paragon of modern adventure puzzle design, minus Minkata and the Museum Pods. You can quote me on that.
 

008Zulu_v1legacy

New member
Sep 6, 2009
6,019
0
0
While I do like Adventure games, I am drawn more to the comedic ones like Day of the Tentacle, Sam & Max, Full Throttle, etc. I find that these often work better as games because not only do you have to write a compelling story, you have to be able to write funny jokes. While this does often require twice the effort, it shows commitment.
 

Morbira

New member
Nov 28, 2009
67
0
0
Question Yahtzee, have you had a chance to get into the Ace Attorney series? It's essentially the more perfected idea of the L.A. Noire formula you are talking about, but through the lens of court cases and investigations. Court hearings are only advanced by you cross examining witnesses and presenting facts that show contradictions to their stories. You also have a limited number of failures, which some might say is an arbitrary lives system, but I believe it adds the right amount of risk to make you want to think twice about your train of logic before you blow all your chances grasping at straws. Besides that, the characters and cases are very vivid and memorable, albeit campy, but in a fun way that fits the aesthetic. Give it a shot! (If you haven't already.)