Update: John Carmack Slams Oculus Lawsuit Decision

[Steven Bogos]

Update: John Carmack Slams Oculus Lawsuit Decision

//cdn.themis-media.com/media/global/images/library/deriv/1355/1355349.jpg
Carmack, who was a former programmer at Zenimax's id Software, says allegations that Oculus's source code was copied from his id Software work are "just not true".

Update: Zenimax has responded to Carmack's post, issuing a statement to Gamasutra [http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/290678/Zenimax_vs_Oculus_Carmack_denies_allegations_slams_expert_analysis.php] stating "In addition to expert testimony finding both literal and non-literal copying, Oculus programmers themselves admitted using Zenimax's copyrighted code (one saying he cut and pasted it into the Oculus SDK), and [Oculus VR co-founder] Brendan Iribe, in writing, requested a license for the 'source code shared by Carmack' they needed for the Oculus Rift. Not surprisingly, the jury found Zenimax code copyrights were infringed. The Oculus Rift was built on a foundation of Zenimax technology."

"As for the denial of wiping, the Court's independent expert found 92 percent of Carmack's hard drive was wiped-all data was permanently destroyed, right after Carmack got notice of the lawsuit, and that his affidavit denying the wiping was false. Those are the hard facts."

Original Story: Earlier in the week, the gaming business world was rocked by the decision of a Facebook [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/169432-ZeniMax-Awarded-500-Million-in-Oculus-Lawsuit] to vent his frustrations, stating that the allegations made against him are "just not true".

Essentially, an expert witness testified that he was "absolutely certain" the finalized Oculus Rift source code closely resembled code Carmack had previously developed while at Zenimax.

"This is just not true," said Carmack. "The authors at Oculus never had access to the Id C++ VR code, only a tiny bit of plaintext shader code from the demo. I was genuinely interested in hearing how the paid expert would spin a web of code DNA between completely unrelated codebases."

He went on to further mock the validity of this so-called "expert witness", stating that "By the end, after seven cases of 'absolutely certain', I was wondering if gangsters had kidnapped his grandchildren and were holding them for ransom. If the code examples were released publicly, the internet would have viciously mocked the analysis."

"I just wanted to shout 'You lie!'" he said. You can read his full statement (which is quite lengthy) here [https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1913546895546485&id=100006735798590].

Oculus has stated that it will be appealing the decision, while Zenimax is looking into seeking an injunction [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/169436-Zenimax-Injunction-Halt-Sales-of-Oculus-Rift-Headset] to halt the sale of the Oculus Rift.

Source: Facebook [https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1913546895546485&id=100006735798590]

Permalink

 

[fractal_butterfly]

I'm on Carmack's side in this case. He does not have to steal code.

 

[Silentpony_v1legacy]

So he's wrong. Flat wrong.

 

[Pyrian]

"non-literal copying" GTFO Zenimax. You can't copyright an algorithm. This is exactly why I said this lawsuit needed to fail: they're being prosecuted based on some abstract resemblance.

 

[Silk_Sk]

"As for the denial of wiping, the Court's independent expert found 92 percent of Carmack's hard drive was wiped-all data was permanently destroyed, right after Carmack got notice of the lawsuit, and that his affidavit denying the wiping was false. Those are the hard facts."

Well, this is getting interesting.

 

[Quellist]

I'm leaning toward not believing Carmack here. Zenimax are posting the facts as heard in court, Carmack is just shouting "Lies!"

 

[Callate]

My knee-jerk tendency is to think "creators > big faceless corporations". And I recognize as someone who occasionally does some programming that a programmer's work has a tendency to resemble his or her other work, and sometimes use similar libraries, in a way that may appear to be copying to a layman but that wouldn't be recognized as such by other programmers.

All that said, Zenimax's claim regarding Carmack wiping his hard drive doesn't look good. And as much as I dislike the idea of Zenimax biting off a big chunk of Occulus while they're still in the midst of trying to midwife VR into viability- and I think the award is far too high in any case- it sounds like they might have made more of a case than was casually visible from news pieces on the subject.

This might, regrettably, fall into "You're correct, but you're still an @$$#*%&" territory.

 

[Zulnam]

Shoudl've kept quiet. Unless you can objectively prove nobody stole any code, you're just adding more fuel to an unwanted fire that has "rocked" the gaming business world.


Because that's what matters.

The gaming business world.

 

[Solkard]

It sounds like much of the evidence against Occulus was provided by Occulus themselves, in which case I don't feel inclined to reward stupidity. It's like that time that girl posted a public image of herself making fun of someone else in the gym showers. If your programmers are openly claiming that they cut n' pasted code from sources Zenimax owns, you kind of did it to yourself.

 

[mad825]

"non-literal copying" GTFO Zenimax. You can't copyright an algorithm. This is exactly why I said this lawsuit needed to fail: they're being prosecuted based on some abstract resemblance.

So you cannot patent something like....Google's search engine algorithm? Yes, yes you can.

I have only seen you zealously ranting how Carmack and oculus have bared no wrong doings.

 

[Avnger]

"non-literal copying" GTFO Zenimax. You can't copyright an algorithm. This is exactly why I said this lawsuit needed to fail: they're being prosecuted based on some abstract resemblance.

Well yes and no. There are copyrights for the specific implementation of an algorithm (as in literal copying). An algorithm can also be patented which would give protection from "non-literal copying."

I'm of the personal opinion that algorithm patenting is bullshit, but it still is (for the most part) legal.

edit: ninja'd

I'm on Carmack's side in this case. He does not have to steal code.

He might not have to, but it does sound like something he would do anyway. I might not need to steal toilet paper roles from my office's bathrooms but doing so would make stocking my apartment cheaper and easier. (example only >_>)

The facts also seem against him.

 

[Xeorm]

And this is why covering your own ass is so important. Strangely enough, courts tend not to put much reliance on the defense "You gotta believe me!".

 

[thebobmaster_v1legacy]

And this is why covering your own ass is so important. Strangely enough, courts tend not to put much reliance on the defense "You gotta believe me!".

That, and "Nuh-uh!" is generally a poor defense against "We have proof that you wiped your hard drive."

 

[09philj]

I'm on Carmack's side in this case. He does not have to steal code.

But it is something he would do.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

I'm on Carmack's side in this case. He does not have to steal code.

But it is something he would do.

I know its quite a common thing for programmers to steal code from other programmers, no matter how talented the thief may be. I'm pretty sure its an unwritten rule of programming, actually. Its just all about how well you cover your tracks...

 

[fractal_butterfly]

But it is something he would do.

I know its quite a common thing for programmers to steal code from other programmers, no matter how talented the thief may be. I'm pretty sure its an unwritten rule of programming, actually. Its just all about how well you cover your tracks...

I am sure you don't understand the mindset of people like Carmack. He is no simple code monkey. He is a scientist. If it doesn't exist, he will try to create it, just for the sake of seeing, if and how it can be done. If it DOES exist, he will try to make it better or to find new ways to tackle the problem, just to explore the possibilities. We are talking about a guy, who revisited the year old Doom 3 source code, to "make the code more beautiful" and to "add more and better comments". And this just for releasing it as open source to the public, not so sell it or for a remastered version. The whole source code of the game, for free. And he went over it, not for bugfixing, but to make the code more maintainable and readable. No normal programmer cares in the least about commenting, or about others being able to read their code. This guy is a freak. He does not need to steal code, and he never would do so either.

Yeah, I know, I am heavily biased regarding this topic. I have the utmost respect for this guy. And I would be heavily disappointed, if he actually did it. But this will not happen. There is no evidence except for a biased and incapable "expert" witness testimony. They will appeal, and even if they lose the case, I think that they will never be able to prove that Mr. Carmack stole the code. Because he fucking didn't.

 

[Kae]

I would not be surprised if Carmack did steal the code, not that I think he lacks skill as clearly, he is one of the best programmers around but considering how expensive it must have been to produce the Oculus and that it did, in fact, start as an independent venture it would have been a good way to reduce production time and costs, which were ridiculously large anyway despite that I hope Zenimax fails because fuck 'em, plus Carmack God of video games brought us Doom and tons of advances in video game tech that were used for tons of classic games so I absolve him of all of his sins, by which I mean, I don't care if he did something wrong fuck Zenimax they probably deserve it.

[sup][sup]Might be worth saying that I'm not the kind of person that believes in Justice, and even less in corporate bullshit.[/sup][/sup]

 

[deadish]

Man, the whole thing is retarded.

Carmark was the only one at id software working on VR ... he practically wrote everything that he is accused of stealing.

I don't feel all that sorry for Oculus and Facebook (both a shady companies IMHO) but this is just Zenimax being IP trolls again.

 

[bluegate]

But it is something he would do.

I know its quite a common thing for programmers to steal code from other programmers, no matter how talented the thief may be. I'm pretty sure its an unwritten rule of programming, actually. Its just all about how well you cover your tracks...

I am sure you don't understand the mindset of people like Carmack. He is no simple code monkey. He is a scientist. If it doesn't exist, he will try to create it, just for the sake of seeing, if and how it can be done. If it DOES exist, he will try to make it better or to find new ways to tackle the problem, just to explore the possibilities. We are talking about a guy, who revisited the year old Doom 3 source code, to "make the code more beautiful" and to "add more and better comments". And this just for releasing it as open source to the public, not so sell it or for a remastered version. The whole source code of the game, for free. And he went over it, not for bugfixing, but to make the code more maintainable and readable. No normal programmer cares in the least about commenting, or about others being able to read their code. This guy is a freak. He does not need to steal code, and he never would do so either.

Yeah, I know, I am heavily biased regarding this topic. I have the utmost respect for this guy. And I would be heavily disappointed, if he actually did it. But this will not happen. There is no evidence except for a biased and incapable "expert" witness testimony. They will appeal, and even if they lose the case, I think that they will never be able to prove that Mr. Carmack stole the code. Because he fucking didn't.

Professional programmers actually do care about proper documentation of their code and keeping their code readable and thus maintainable.

Programmers working in teams need to keep their code well documented and clean for other members on the team to be able to understand what code does and work off of it. If you have a guy on your team that just blurts out code, that might work mind you, that can't be easily understood, either by reading documentation for the code and its methods/functions or by skimming over the code itself, you have a guy willingly throwing roadblocks up for the rest of the team.

Even programmers who work on their own will want to keep their code well documented and clean, because although they know what the code does at the time of writing, chances are they will be coming back to it some time later by which time it is highly likely they have forgotten what the code does, meaning they will have to spend time re-familiarizing themselves with their own code, wasting time. Especially if you are a solo programmer working on a relatively large project, documenting what you are doing and keeping things clean can save you a lot of time.

And seriously, cleaning up code before releasing it for public eyes to scrutinize to oblivion, seems like a normal practice, rather than something for which a person should be praised to high heaven.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

But it is something he would do.

I know its quite a common thing for programmers to steal code from other programmers, no matter how talented the thief may be. I'm pretty sure its an unwritten rule of programming, actually. Its just all about how well you cover your tracks...

I am sure you don't understand the mindset of people like Carmack. He is no simple code monkey. He is a scientist. If it doesn't exist, he will try to create it, just for the sake of seeing, if and how it can be done. If it DOES exist, he will try to make it better or to find new ways to tackle the problem, just to explore the possibilities. We are talking about a guy, who revisited the year old Doom 3 source code, to "make the code more beautiful" and to "add more and better comments". And this just for releasing it as open source to the public, not so sell it or for a remastered version. The whole source code of the game, for free. And he went over it, not for bugfixing, but to make the code more maintainable and readable. No normal programmer cares in the least about commenting, or about others being able to read their code. This guy is a freak. He does not need to steal code, and he never would do so either.

Yeah, I know, I am heavily biased regarding this topic. I have the utmost respect for this guy. And I would be heavily disappointed, if he actually did it. But this will not happen. There is no evidence except for a biased and incapable "expert" witness testimony. They will appeal, and even if they lose the case, I think that they will never be able to prove that Mr. Carmack stole the code. Because he fucking didn't.

I'm unbiased, and as much respect as I have for Carmack's legacy and all, there's a bit of ego at work here, and it isn't hard for me to believe he took something he thought was his, but in corporate reality wasn't. I'm not saying he did, but there's potential for it to happen and no one, no matter how big a name, is immune to human failings. Scientist or not, he's still human and humans have flaws.
Do I know he did? No. Do you know him personally and can attest to his upstanding, impeccable reputation? No, you don't and can't.
Benefit of the doubt, yes, but there's a lot of grey here. I can see a situation in where Carmack thought what he worked on in whatever off-time he had might have been his work, but if he did it on Zenimax grounds, on their machines and whatnot, by the way things work in corporate society, he did not have the right to do so and could not take his work out of that company without some form of legal issues arising. I don't know that is what actually happened, but in my mind that is a highly likely possibility and if that is the case, its also likely Carmack's ego won't allow him to admit he fucked up because it puts his newest employers on the bad end of the lawsuit.
Again, I don't know what happened but the biggest hurdle here is that Carmack has produced nothing except denials, with no actual evidence. Zenimax has not just their "expert" but testimony from non-Zenimax sources... that's fairly damning as it is.
But to be quite honest, you do not know whether he did or did not do these things. You may choose to believe him, that's a different story but you honestly don't know "he fucking didn't."
And the other side, my comment was lighthearted fun-poking at the penchant for programmers to sometimes steal code, sometimes consciously, sometimes not, from others. But getting an essay in reply, I felt I had to rebut.
Have a nice day.
TL;DR - I don't know if Carmack did or did not do anything, but I'm not willing to say its beyond him because he's human and humans fuck up.