Three Reasons for Robin
- Thread starter MovieBob
- Start date
I completly, totally, and fully agree.
There really is no reason they cant fit Robin in the Nolanverse. And if they want the third film to at least do good, since it will never be anywhere near as successful as TDK, that's really the only thing they can do unless another cast member dies.
There really is no reason they cant fit Robin in the Nolanverse. And if they want the third film to at least do good, since it will never be anywhere near as successful as TDK, that's really the only thing they can do unless another cast member dies.
I really liked this post, and I totally agree. I was also going to mention that the current main bat-series is called Batman and Robin, and has a much lighter campier tone while still being fairly serious. That's what Morrison was going for. It's also good to mention for the un-initiated that in the comics right now, The first Robin is Batman, and he's doing a damn good job.
To be honest, I agree that Robin should be in the next Batman movie. The previous two have been about Bruce Wayne moving beyond what he wants to become a symbol (or a performance, if you want to get all metafiction) that people need to realize what is right and wrong. What better way to cap off his transition from flesh-and-blood man to a modern mythological hero than to take someone under his wing, who can also carry on his legacy in the way that the flesh-and-blood Harvey Dent could not? And it can certainly tie into the other themes of Nolan's films in very interesting ways.
i also agree. robin was probably the most human element in batman. otherwise it would be just "the adventures of Mr scowl and his incredible belt". robin shows the humanity in the comic book world. unlike all the heroes in the comic book universe all the robins were actually effected by the world around them. the first robin grew up and did his own thing and became a batman knock off, the second died a horrible death which left batman with a deep source of grief and the last one i think eventually killing the joker only to eventually unknowingly become the joker of the future. kind of badass.
Agreed with you last time, agreeing with you this time.
To rephrase my opinions on the matter from last time, I think a lot of the problem people have is that they believe Batman can't be gritty if he's got Robin, whereas I think this is provably untrue. The naysayers point to Batman & Robin, Batman Forever etc, but in my experience that's because they haven't read some of the comic books, like Dark Victory. Anyone who can read Dark Victory and say that it's an upbeat novel is clearly the sort of person who begins each day with genital mutilation.
Also, Death in the Family, one of the most highly regarded of all the Batman stories, is focused entirely around the development of Jason Todd, leading to his eventual (You should know this by now) death. Dick Grayson was introduced with his parents brutal murder by a mob boss, Tim Drake's father gets murdered, his mother gets mrudered, his girlfriend gets murdered, and then Batman seemingly dies and there's a massive scuffle over who gets the cowl, these are not light and fluffy plotlines.
I don't just think there's room for Robin, I agree that there's a need for Robin. Batman alone is a borderline psychopath, Robin brings him back from that brink (another thing which is explicitly commented on in not just one but several comic books.) Also, remember Ra's Al Ghul's little demotivational speech about Bruce's father failing to act? Robin in any incarnation gives Batman the chance to be the father who did act to stop the violence, so it even makes sense in-universe. There's nothing inherently comical about Robin just because he wears a circus highwire costume and makes the occasional joke (again, really not something he does in Dark Victory). It's all in the treatment, and if Christopher Nolan honestly couldn't handle Robin right then it's his failing as a director, not the character's failing (and also the writer's fault for not writing him right, casting department etc.) And for the record, so I don't get misquoted, I think C Nolan could handle Robin, it's just that he doesn't want to because he's hit upon the dark and gritty market, so he's not really pushing any limits with the films.
Overall, I know Robin won't be in the third movie of this remake (both Nolan and Bale have stated they'd walk out if it happened), but I think he should be, and I think if he was handled well, he could prove to be just as much as a surprising character as this new interpretation of the Joker was. Because remember how everyone said Heath Ledger was going to be awful? Remember how that turned out? There is nothing at all to say that adding Robin couldn't be just as good.
TL;DR: Batman needs Robin to stay sane, and Tim Drake was the most awesome Robin ever.
To rephrase my opinions on the matter from last time, I think a lot of the problem people have is that they believe Batman can't be gritty if he's got Robin, whereas I think this is provably untrue. The naysayers point to Batman & Robin, Batman Forever etc, but in my experience that's because they haven't read some of the comic books, like Dark Victory. Anyone who can read Dark Victory and say that it's an upbeat novel is clearly the sort of person who begins each day with genital mutilation.
Also, Death in the Family, one of the most highly regarded of all the Batman stories, is focused entirely around the development of Jason Todd, leading to his eventual (You should know this by now) death. Dick Grayson was introduced with his parents brutal murder by a mob boss, Tim Drake's father gets murdered, his mother gets mrudered, his girlfriend gets murdered, and then Batman seemingly dies and there's a massive scuffle over who gets the cowl, these are not light and fluffy plotlines.
I don't just think there's room for Robin, I agree that there's a need for Robin. Batman alone is a borderline psychopath, Robin brings him back from that brink (another thing which is explicitly commented on in not just one but several comic books.) Also, remember Ra's Al Ghul's little demotivational speech about Bruce's father failing to act? Robin in any incarnation gives Batman the chance to be the father who did act to stop the violence, so it even makes sense in-universe. There's nothing inherently comical about Robin just because he wears a circus highwire costume and makes the occasional joke (again, really not something he does in Dark Victory). It's all in the treatment, and if Christopher Nolan honestly couldn't handle Robin right then it's his failing as a director, not the character's failing (and also the writer's fault for not writing him right, casting department etc.) And for the record, so I don't get misquoted, I think C Nolan could handle Robin, it's just that he doesn't want to because he's hit upon the dark and gritty market, so he's not really pushing any limits with the films.
Overall, I know Robin won't be in the third movie of this remake (both Nolan and Bale have stated they'd walk out if it happened), but I think he should be, and I think if he was handled well, he could prove to be just as much as a surprising character as this new interpretation of the Joker was. Because remember how everyone said Heath Ledger was going to be awful? Remember how that turned out? There is nothing at all to say that adding Robin couldn't be just as good.
TL;DR: Batman needs Robin to stay sane, and Tim Drake was the most awesome Robin ever.
I was adamantly opposed to the idea of Robin appearing in another Batman film in my lifetime, and in three pages Bob changes my mind...
One thing I would love to see in the next Nolan movie however, is Harley Quinn, it's about time she made her film debut. Not as a main villain, but just crop up in the first act as a Joker copycat, obsessed with the image of the character despite having never met him (rather than the traditional girlfriend/sidekick approach) but played more sympathetically, like an emotionally fragile teenager.
Rather than be a new threat for Batman to overcome, she would represent the lasting effect that Joker has had on Gotham, hell I'd even be happy to see her spend more screen time in counselling than in costume.
Just a thought.
One thing I would love to see in the next Nolan movie however, is Harley Quinn, it's about time she made her film debut. Not as a main villain, but just crop up in the first act as a Joker copycat, obsessed with the image of the character despite having never met him (rather than the traditional girlfriend/sidekick approach) but played more sympathetically, like an emotionally fragile teenager.
Rather than be a new threat for Batman to overcome, she would represent the lasting effect that Joker has had on Gotham, hell I'd even be happy to see her spend more screen time in counselling than in costume.
Just a thought.
Ah, Robin, Robin Hood, I see what you did there!
Anyway, this is all pretty good arguments, and I would agree that the whole darkness phase is over, some of the best moments in Iron Man 2 came from RDJr's humour. So yeah, Batman does need to lighten up, because as you mentioned, he's actually starting to look completly ridiculous, not the "Holy **** it's Batman" message Batman is aiming for. And I wouldn't worry about the whole "They'll cast Justin Bieber or whatever" stuff people say, as Chris Nolan as big enough now that he'll be able to just tell the studio's where they can stuff it.
My problem lies with the simple thing about Robin. He's Robin! He dresses up in green tights with a red unitard and his mask consists of a piece of fabric on his face. He looks ridiculous. More than that the premise is that an orphan is recruited by Batman to fight crime in the afformentioned outfit. It sounds silly when you consider Batman is on a lone mission, doesn't want anyone to get hurt (As Kevin Conroy said in Gotham Knight "I'm willing to put my life on the line, but only my life.") and wouldn't want a kid working with him, before you even think what the Commisioner would think of the situation.
If you got Robin on board while getting around the stupid premise I'd be all for it you'd gain all of your benefits, but that still raises the question of getting around the problem.
Anyway, this is all pretty good arguments, and I would agree that the whole darkness phase is over, some of the best moments in Iron Man 2 came from RDJr's humour. So yeah, Batman does need to lighten up, because as you mentioned, he's actually starting to look completly ridiculous, not the "Holy **** it's Batman" message Batman is aiming for. And I wouldn't worry about the whole "They'll cast Justin Bieber or whatever" stuff people say, as Chris Nolan as big enough now that he'll be able to just tell the studio's where they can stuff it.
My problem lies with the simple thing about Robin. He's Robin! He dresses up in green tights with a red unitard and his mask consists of a piece of fabric on his face. He looks ridiculous. More than that the premise is that an orphan is recruited by Batman to fight crime in the afformentioned outfit. It sounds silly when you consider Batman is on a lone mission, doesn't want anyone to get hurt (As Kevin Conroy said in Gotham Knight "I'm willing to put my life on the line, but only my life.") and wouldn't want a kid working with him, before you even think what the Commisioner would think of the situation.
If you got Robin on board while getting around the stupid premise I'd be all for it you'd gain all of your benefits, but that still raises the question of getting around the problem.
Same thing happened to me. I can't stand Robin - thank you, Chris O'Donnell - but it's hard to fault Bob's logic at all. Plus, this line:Dok Zombie said:
"Looking at that, does anyone think the sequel is simply going to skew darker? I mean, the only way it could even get darker is if the movie ends with Batman slitting his wrists in the bathtub while listening to a vinyl of Die Fledermousse."
just killed me.
Meh, it could work, and it could work really well if it does work... but this is Hollywood, this is the third movie in a series that's making tons of money, we might have gotten lucky with the first two being mostly unmeddled with by big shot producers who only want to make money, but I don't think we're going to be so lucky with number three.
Sadly, history proves me right, too; Spider Man 3, X-Men 3, Superman 3, all the victims of producers stepping in and telling everybody what to do instead of trusting them to make a good movie on their own, hell, even the first series of Batman films had a misstep with number 3, which actually did introduce Robin... as a whiny as hell 25 year old, who was so poorly written that you could almost replace all his dialogue as "Wah! Wah! Wah!" and it would fit in the movie about as well as his actual dialogue did. (and I LIKED that movie, it was campy fun done right, unlike the utter mess that was Batman and Robin)
Like I said, it could totally be done right, and if it was done right it could make for a better film than even The Dark Knight... but history says otherwise, and I'm gonna agree until I see some evidence that says Nolan can fight off the producers long enough to make another good movie.
Sadly, history proves me right, too; Spider Man 3, X-Men 3, Superman 3, all the victims of producers stepping in and telling everybody what to do instead of trusting them to make a good movie on their own, hell, even the first series of Batman films had a misstep with number 3, which actually did introduce Robin... as a whiny as hell 25 year old, who was so poorly written that you could almost replace all his dialogue as "Wah! Wah! Wah!" and it would fit in the movie about as well as his actual dialogue did. (and I LIKED that movie, it was campy fun done right, unlike the utter mess that was Batman and Robin)
Like I said, it could totally be done right, and if it was done right it could make for a better film than even The Dark Knight... but history says otherwise, and I'm gonna agree until I see some evidence that says Nolan can fight off the producers long enough to make another good movie.
Wow, a Swing Kids reference. Moviebob, you rock.
Also, yeah, bring in Robin. But a good Robin, not a nearing 30ish actor to play a teenage acrobat. Find a 13 year old, one who actually could be believed as needing to be placed under adoption when his parents die. Or fuck Grayson, bring in Tim Drake.
Also, yeah, bring in Robin. But a good Robin, not a nearing 30ish actor to play a teenage acrobat. Find a 13 year old, one who actually could be believed as needing to be placed under adoption when his parents die. Or fuck Grayson, bring in Tim Drake.
I hate the fact that Nolan and Bale refuse to put Robin in there. They shouldn't ignore a character so utterly important to the mythos.
As a side note, I wouldn't say it was to move to darker stories that almost killed comics in the 90s. What happened is people noticed that old comics were now worth ridiculous amounts of money, so they started buying new ones in bulk in hopes to get rich after a couple decades. To respond to this, the comic publishers started printing their books in massive orders with all sorts of crazy special editions (this is where those multiple covers and foil covers bs comes from). Eventually, consumers realized that old comics were worth a lot because they were rare, while these ones they just bought were worthless because there were so many of them. So people stopped buying comics, but the publishers were still left with these massive orders. Lots of comics printed + no one buying them = near bankruptcy for comics.
As a side note, I wouldn't say it was to move to darker stories that almost killed comics in the 90s. What happened is people noticed that old comics were now worth ridiculous amounts of money, so they started buying new ones in bulk in hopes to get rich after a couple decades. To respond to this, the comic publishers started printing their books in massive orders with all sorts of crazy special editions (this is where those multiple covers and foil covers bs comes from). Eventually, consumers realized that old comics were worth a lot because they were rare, while these ones they just bought were worthless because there were so many of them. So people stopped buying comics, but the publishers were still left with these massive orders. Lots of comics printed + no one buying them = near bankruptcy for comics.
I'm 18 years old so the first contact I had with Robin in a Batman movie was, well, Batman and Robin. Naive as I was back then, I didn't realize what was wrong about that movie. Still, I liked the Robin on the Teen Titans series on Cartoon Network. He was a good mixture of being pushed to the edge, mostly involving Slade (voiced awesomely by Ron Perlman), but he also had some more tame, human moments, like whenever he was hanging around Starfire. I would like to see some variation on that on the new Batman movies.
Not to be a parrot but I'm with you on this one Bob. I just hope they don't make him too... well camp, though Nolan's done a good job of avoiding that so far... I guess there's nothing to worry about. Also I think it would fit with the comics. Batman Begins was pretty much a live action re-telling of Batman: Year One, The Dark Knight borrowed more that a couple elements from Batman: The Long Halloween, now it would fit pretty well with the movie series to follow through with Dark Victory and allow us to have a Robin. The third Batman is supposed to be the last of the Nolan series so it would be nice for him to end it with our Robin. I'm also interested in how Nolan would do Robin with his serious movies?.
Now i always been a fan of robin, but the pictures you chose will probably do more harm than good. showing the worst dipictions of robin is not a strong way to build confidence in your words. unless you were speaking sarcasticly in which case that was a really douche thing to do.
Point of mine though is robin should be in the Batman movies but for this artical i would chose better pics, such as batman holding the lifeless body of robin after being killed by joker, something from teen titans, or maybe a cool pic from the comics. Robin from the worst batman movie (ever) and robin from the crazy old batman movie only invokes memories of a really bad movie and the line "holy snickerdoodles batman!"
But i'm a guttersnipe and your a published writer, so what do i know?
Point of mine though is robin should be in the Batman movies but for this artical i would chose better pics, such as batman holding the lifeless body of robin after being killed by joker, something from teen titans, or maybe a cool pic from the comics. Robin from the worst batman movie (ever) and robin from the crazy old batman movie only invokes memories of a really bad movie and the line "holy snickerdoodles batman!"
But i'm a guttersnipe and your a published writer, so what do i know?
You know, I've never really liked Robin, but you make a really convincing argument. And yeah... Batman needs to take yoga lessons or something. I have this image of my head of the club fight scene in the middle of the movie where he's just grabbing people and elbowing them over and over again... 
