The Stigma of Role-Playing Must Die!
- Thread starter Greg Tito
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Some way to play these games without actually meeting in person would be a good start. Some sort of webcam-group would be nice.
As you said, a new player can't really be asked to DM a game. So if there are no nearby players, then you can't start playing, and if you don't start, you can't be a DM eventually, therefore there will be no groups, so people can't start... Self repeating cycle!
The location barrier has kept me out of the game so far. I tried some play by post, but it took ~6 months for one battle to play out. Some sort of webcam type setup for people with no nearby groups would help with that.
As you said, a new player can't really be asked to DM a game. So if there are no nearby players, then you can't start playing, and if you don't start, you can't be a DM eventually, therefore there will be no groups, so people can't start... Self repeating cycle!
The location barrier has kept me out of the game so far. I tried some play by post, but it took ~6 months for one battle to play out. Some sort of webcam type setup for people with no nearby groups would help with that.
I'm getting the impression that really this is just you and your friends. I'm hosting a D&D game with my friends, and my dad has been tabletop gaming for 20 years. It is in fact how he met my mother. If your friends aren't supportive of a particular hobby, maybe it isn't society or some grand conspiracy, maybe it is just your friends. I live in Kentucky for crying out loud, and neither me nor any of my friends or relatives have run into this.
I think this is just you.
2nd theory: New Yorkers are pricks (though this comes mostly from personal experience).
I think this is just you.
2nd theory: New Yorkers are pricks (though this comes mostly from personal experience).
I think meeting in person to play is largely the point. It's meant to be face-to-face cooperative, rather than online which always has an element of together-but-separate.Nimbus said:
I'm thinking of trying the game, mostly at the encouragement of this column. But I run into the same problem, my friends (who are perfectly happy playing TF2, ME2, Oblivion, Dragon Age,etc.) don't want to play D&D because they don't want to be that guy. I don't have any clue who that guy is (well, yea I do - it's our friend Eric who is 25, obsessed with Magic: The Gathering, and has been a giant douche for as long as I've known him - all three facts are coincidental.) I'm not the kind of person that gets caught up in matters of external projections much so being seen as "that guy" doesn't bug me, I just wish my friends would get over it.
No, I don't think it's just him. Start asking random people on the street and chances are they'll have a negative perception of D&D. You're just one of the lucky few who have two geeks for parents, a group that will hopefully be increasing as the years go on.Rokar333 said:
I think that was a good point about needing experienced DM's being the main problem. It's hard to force yourself into a complex culture like geekdom, and its especially hard when the residents don't treat their hobby in a relaxed and casual way
Its not a barrier I have encountered myself. I know people who are encouraging of others starting Roleplaying games and one person who will go out of his way to get people involved.
That said im sure that the barrier exists even if it has not affected me. The extended group of people I play with also seem to be an oddity where almost everyone is interested in GMing some kind of game. This means that should we want to introduce new groups of people there isn't a shortage of people willing to GM the game.
That said I also know of a couple of groups that have started up fairly recently made up of totally new players although they are also people who have other tabletop hobbies (Warhammer) so its not the leap that it is for most people.
Am interested to see other peoples stories about this, I can imagine also it is harder for people in the US where the negative stigma is likely greater than here in the UK (although you would think Glasgow would be a rather Geek unfriendly kind of place but its not).
Kaihlik
That said im sure that the barrier exists even if it has not affected me. The extended group of people I play with also seem to be an oddity where almost everyone is interested in GMing some kind of game. This means that should we want to introduce new groups of people there isn't a shortage of people willing to GM the game.
That said I also know of a couple of groups that have started up fairly recently made up of totally new players although they are also people who have other tabletop hobbies (Warhammer) so its not the leap that it is for most people.
Am interested to see other peoples stories about this, I can imagine also it is harder for people in the US where the negative stigma is likely greater than here in the UK (although you would think Glasgow would be a rather Geek unfriendly kind of place but its not).
Kaihlik
I have never played D&D but thats not to say that I wouldn't. I have played alot of games based on D&D rules (Baulders Gate 1&2, Neverwinter Nights, etc..) but the problem I have is that all the people I know would never play D&D.
I'm a bit of and odd sort myself. I'm in my late 20's, I ride a motorcycle everywhere I go, and am a member of a "biker group" and most of my friends are my "biker" friends. These guys are all mid 30's and older and most of them have no idea what a table top game is. I'm already made fun of for being a "biker" that plays WOW, and that is a popular video game, I can imagine how "Hey, you guys want to play some D&D?" would go.
I might get to play one day, if I find the proper people to play with. The few D&D players I do know view me as the outcast. No one takes a guy that looks like a modern day Fonzi, but with more spikes, chains, and crazier hair, as a serious gamer.
I'm a bit of and odd sort myself. I'm in my late 20's, I ride a motorcycle everywhere I go, and am a member of a "biker group" and most of my friends are my "biker" friends. These guys are all mid 30's and older and most of them have no idea what a table top game is. I'm already made fun of for being a "biker" that plays WOW, and that is a popular video game, I can imagine how "Hey, you guys want to play some D&D?" would go.
I might get to play one day, if I find the proper people to play with. The few D&D players I do know view me as the outcast. No one takes a guy that looks like a modern day Fonzi, but with more spikes, chains, and crazier hair, as a serious gamer.
Let's put it this way:
Roleplayers aren't the bottom of the slide.
Below them are the LRPers, LARPers, Freeformers, Re-enactment, Cosplayers (And don't DARE get these lot mixed up), Furries, Monster Wannabees, Shinty players...
Yes, sports as well. See what your Liberal friends would think of a nice game of Kabbadi instead? Maybe you could stretch it to Dodgeball...but would you still get those looks?
Myself, I just spent a weekend with some freeformers, writing a game. There's 30-40 of us including a biochemist working on cancer cures (female/married), a bank stock investor (male/married), a nuclear physicist (female/single) and many more diverse occupations. Usually it's only the ones with kids that complain about not having a life anymore.
What's the basis of what we do? Sit round writing for a day or two while getting drunk, play boardgames, dress to play the games, get drunk again, chat about the world and head off home.
Not exactly different to any group of friends on a night out. Do we look like we're crazy? Certainly. Do we have a whale of a time? Sure. Do we go back to busy jobs and social lives? Yep.
Put it this way, how's it any less social than sitting in front of a screen, projector or VDU for hours a day?
Oh yeah, we're told it's not. Same as we're told to drink 8 pints of water a day. Personally I try and make my own rules.
Roleplayers aren't the bottom of the slide.
Below them are the LRPers, LARPers, Freeformers, Re-enactment, Cosplayers (And don't DARE get these lot mixed up), Furries, Monster Wannabees, Shinty players...
Yes, sports as well. See what your Liberal friends would think of a nice game of Kabbadi instead? Maybe you could stretch it to Dodgeball...but would you still get those looks?
Myself, I just spent a weekend with some freeformers, writing a game. There's 30-40 of us including a biochemist working on cancer cures (female/married), a bank stock investor (male/married), a nuclear physicist (female/single) and many more diverse occupations. Usually it's only the ones with kids that complain about not having a life anymore.
What's the basis of what we do? Sit round writing for a day or two while getting drunk, play boardgames, dress to play the games, get drunk again, chat about the world and head off home.
Not exactly different to any group of friends on a night out. Do we look like we're crazy? Certainly. Do we have a whale of a time? Sure. Do we go back to busy jobs and social lives? Yep.
Put it this way, how's it any less social than sitting in front of a screen, projector or VDU for hours a day?
Oh yeah, we're told it's not. Same as we're told to drink 8 pints of water a day. Personally I try and make my own rules.
While I can understand what you mean, would you be put off football just because you saw some drunk fans smashing up the place? Admittedly we do have some ... characters in the hobby, but why do you think we need more "normal" people?Cousin_IT said:
If it's any consolation, I recently started playing DnD with a few friends.
All of them know what the game was about (vaguely) but never played.
And by using RPG video games (or more precisely, the restrictions in them) as a example, they started to share my enthusiasm.
I came in contact with the game through Neverwinter Nights. And always thought it would be cool to play it for real. To really roleplay your character, instead of the 3 pre-selected choices. But I didn't know anyone else.
Until I got into my university where people were not only massive geeks, they were all open and proud.
It still took me a few years to buy myself the core books and dice, but I'm having a blast as newly DM.
The people I play with are also newbies, but I got some great tips from the forums here, and the "senior" geeks.
So, in conclusion: As DnD might still be a hidden hobby to some, there are those rare and wonderful places where the geeks flock and the dice roll.
All of them know what the game was about (vaguely) but never played.
And by using RPG video games (or more precisely, the restrictions in them) as a example, they started to share my enthusiasm.
I came in contact with the game through Neverwinter Nights. And always thought it would be cool to play it for real. To really roleplay your character, instead of the 3 pre-selected choices. But I didn't know anyone else.
Until I got into my university where people were not only massive geeks, they were all open and proud.
It still took me a few years to buy myself the core books and dice, but I'm having a blast as newly DM.
The people I play with are also newbies, but I got some great tips from the forums here, and the "senior" geeks.
So, in conclusion: As DnD might still be a hidden hobby to some, there are those rare and wonderful places where the geeks flock and the dice roll.
I have a similar problem myself. When I was younger and growing up an atheist in a heavily Mennonite town, it wasn't easy to find people who were accepting of D&D. If it wasn't considered satanic, it was considered nerdy -- despite the fact that video games had already lost their "for nerds" stigma and board games were perfectly accepted.
Even now, as an adult, it's hard to find a group. I have lots of friends who enjoy board games, but few who might endeavor to try tabletop role playing, and even fewer who would be prepared to DM. Myself, I have little interest in being the DM, mainly because creating stories and worlds isn't my thing (though I'm happy to read the DM guide and study the rules).
Sure, there are local shops that sell D&D stuff, and they have D&D nights, but I don't think I could stand two hours in a room with many of them. The stereotypes still exist partially because it still fits. There are still socially-awkward, insular nerds who lack personal hygiene who are happy to be poster children for their favorite escape. That's not to say they all are like that -- I know at least a few who are normal, every day people -- but there are enough stereotypical dorks that it's hard to find a good group.
I would try to introduce my boardgame-playing friends to D&D, but there's a major hurdle in the way. When I want to get a group together to try out a new board game, all I have to do is pickup the game, explain it to them for 10 minutes, and we can start to play. Even people who aren't normally into board games are willing to give me 10 minutes to explain it and an hour to play. But D&D takes a huge effort to get started. Just to understand the rules takes at least an hour of reading the players handbook, and it's far too much to take in one sitting. People also aren't really used to role playing, so it can be awkward to ease the group into the action. To make matters worse, you need a DM. If you aren't a DM (or don't want to have to take on that role), you're stuck. Perhaps you could bring in a friend, but now you need to bring in somebody outside your social circle, which makes things even more difficult. But probably the biggest hurdle of all is the time: you can't really appreciate what D&D is about until you are a few hours into a session. Even just organizing that big of a block of time can be difficult, but getting skeptics to dedicate that time to something they know little about is nearly impossible.
I know several people who have played tabletop RPGs, and they all did (and still) love them, but finding people to play with is hard and getting others interested is even harder. Some of it is the stigma that still surrounds the game (IMO, largely brought upon gamers by themselves), but a lot of it is the shear difficulty of getting into the game.
What role playing games need is a "gateway game". Boardgames struggled for years to figure out how to get people past Scrabble and Monopoly and into more interesting boardgames. Games like Settlers of Catan and Ticket to Ride have been successful at doing this: they are simple enough to learn and play, but have enough depth and complexity to make players more comfortable with these sorts of games. If there was a roleplaying game simple enough to learn and get started at, without any experienced players involved, then people could try it out with having to jump the huge hurdle of dedication. Think something like "casual games" or the Nintendo Wii, but for roleplaying.
Unfortunately, I think RPGs have one final hurdle to overcome: playing pretend. We all know how to roleplay, because we all did it as kids: we pretended to be adults, playing house, or doctor, or school. Roleplaying was our biggest tool for exploring social interactions as we grew up. And a large part of that is pretending and imagining ourselves as somebody else. But as we grow up, society tells us that's no longer acceptable. But there are exceptions. Reading books, watching movies, and playing video games allow us to sort of live life as somebody else, even if only very abstractly and temporarily. We don't outwardly display it, but inside we consider what it would be like to be the protagonist and what we would do, and that's allowed. Actors are allowed to go one step further and be the ones pretending, but ask any actor what it was like growing up, and you'll hear about how people think actors are silly. Acting is only accepted when you're really good at it (I find the same thing as a singer).
In order to make RPGs socially acceptable, we have to make "playing pretend" acceptable. I think part of that is drawing the distinction between RPGs and LARP -- a lot of people have seen LARP (it's hard to miss when you see it) and associate it with RPGs, but there's obviously some middle-ground between taking on a role and wearing costumes and makeup (N.B.: I'm not saying there's anything wrong with LARP, but it's a big step from what people are used to and what's socially accepted). I think video games have helped with this: the idea of playing as a character isn't so far-fetched anymore. But acting it out in real life still is, and that's the biggest thing I find turns people off from RPGs. Most of the hurdles I mentioned before were technical, but this one is societal, and those are always the hardest to overcome.
Until that happens, even nerds like myself will have trouble getting a group together, leaving it almost impossible to obtain a wider audience.
Even now, as an adult, it's hard to find a group. I have lots of friends who enjoy board games, but few who might endeavor to try tabletop role playing, and even fewer who would be prepared to DM. Myself, I have little interest in being the DM, mainly because creating stories and worlds isn't my thing (though I'm happy to read the DM guide and study the rules).
Sure, there are local shops that sell D&D stuff, and they have D&D nights, but I don't think I could stand two hours in a room with many of them. The stereotypes still exist partially because it still fits. There are still socially-awkward, insular nerds who lack personal hygiene who are happy to be poster children for their favorite escape. That's not to say they all are like that -- I know at least a few who are normal, every day people -- but there are enough stereotypical dorks that it's hard to find a good group.
I would try to introduce my boardgame-playing friends to D&D, but there's a major hurdle in the way. When I want to get a group together to try out a new board game, all I have to do is pickup the game, explain it to them for 10 minutes, and we can start to play. Even people who aren't normally into board games are willing to give me 10 minutes to explain it and an hour to play. But D&D takes a huge effort to get started. Just to understand the rules takes at least an hour of reading the players handbook, and it's far too much to take in one sitting. People also aren't really used to role playing, so it can be awkward to ease the group into the action. To make matters worse, you need a DM. If you aren't a DM (or don't want to have to take on that role), you're stuck. Perhaps you could bring in a friend, but now you need to bring in somebody outside your social circle, which makes things even more difficult. But probably the biggest hurdle of all is the time: you can't really appreciate what D&D is about until you are a few hours into a session. Even just organizing that big of a block of time can be difficult, but getting skeptics to dedicate that time to something they know little about is nearly impossible.
I know several people who have played tabletop RPGs, and they all did (and still) love them, but finding people to play with is hard and getting others interested is even harder. Some of it is the stigma that still surrounds the game (IMO, largely brought upon gamers by themselves), but a lot of it is the shear difficulty of getting into the game.
What role playing games need is a "gateway game". Boardgames struggled for years to figure out how to get people past Scrabble and Monopoly and into more interesting boardgames. Games like Settlers of Catan and Ticket to Ride have been successful at doing this: they are simple enough to learn and play, but have enough depth and complexity to make players more comfortable with these sorts of games. If there was a roleplaying game simple enough to learn and get started at, without any experienced players involved, then people could try it out with having to jump the huge hurdle of dedication. Think something like "casual games" or the Nintendo Wii, but for roleplaying.
Unfortunately, I think RPGs have one final hurdle to overcome: playing pretend. We all know how to roleplay, because we all did it as kids: we pretended to be adults, playing house, or doctor, or school. Roleplaying was our biggest tool for exploring social interactions as we grew up. And a large part of that is pretending and imagining ourselves as somebody else. But as we grow up, society tells us that's no longer acceptable. But there are exceptions. Reading books, watching movies, and playing video games allow us to sort of live life as somebody else, even if only very abstractly and temporarily. We don't outwardly display it, but inside we consider what it would be like to be the protagonist and what we would do, and that's allowed. Actors are allowed to go one step further and be the ones pretending, but ask any actor what it was like growing up, and you'll hear about how people think actors are silly. Acting is only accepted when you're really good at it (I find the same thing as a singer).
In order to make RPGs socially acceptable, we have to make "playing pretend" acceptable. I think part of that is drawing the distinction between RPGs and LARP -- a lot of people have seen LARP (it's hard to miss when you see it) and associate it with RPGs, but there's obviously some middle-ground between taking on a role and wearing costumes and makeup (N.B.: I'm not saying there's anything wrong with LARP, but it's a big step from what people are used to and what's socially accepted). I think video games have helped with this: the idea of playing as a character isn't so far-fetched anymore. But acting it out in real life still is, and that's the biggest thing I find turns people off from RPGs. Most of the hurdles I mentioned before were technical, but this one is societal, and those are always the hardest to overcome.
Until that happens, even nerds like myself will have trouble getting a group together, leaving it almost impossible to obtain a wider audience.
We have a group of four couples ranging in age from early 20s to late 40s who play D&D together twice a month. All of the guys (and me) also play videogames, but the other women wouldn't be caught dead with WoW or Mass Effect or the like. One couple are evangelical Christians. The campaign has had a waiting list a couple of times over the five years my husband has been running it. On the occasions when we get the "You actually do that?" eye roll we point the doubters at a web site with the short story recaps of major events over the years. It has a small readership now of people who don't even play but like to follow what's going on.
In my experience, presentation is everything when confronted with mockery. Don't hunch your shoulders or apologize, educate. A good D&D campaign is as gripping as a good book or movie, but you get to do it with other people. That's worked for us every time. And gotten us some fun new players.
In my experience, presentation is everything when confronted with mockery. Don't hunch your shoulders or apologize, educate. A good D&D campaign is as gripping as a good book or movie, but you get to do it with other people. That's worked for us every time. And gotten us some fun new players.
Man, I'd love to play tabletop RPGs, but it just never seems to happen. For one thing I work evenings and have Sundays and Mondays off, and I've never found an group online that doesn't meet while I'm at work. And I don't think I could get any of my friends to try it out, and even if I could it would be nearly impossible to get us all together regularly, and even if I could do that we have no experience. I personally would be a terrible GM. I'd be good at the world building and judging aspects, but my descriptions are always short, dry and abstract. I would have an extremely hard time drawing people into the game. A group of experienced role-players that could fill in those kind of details might have fun in a game where I was the GM, but I don't know any experienced role-players, and if I did I could just join as a player, so that doesn't really help.
Ah well. I suppose video games will have to do.
Ah well. I suppose video games will have to do.
There is definitely a stigma where I life about tabletop games, DnD in particular, but I don't think its because of something that happened in the 80s in America.
Personally, I think it's because people here aren't naturally interested, and they're prevented from exploiting even a tiny amount of interest because they'll be, as you said, "that guy".
The people who play tabletop games are, lets say, already social pariahs. If you even consider doing something that they do you are lowered one step on the staircase of society.
Note: I know I used a couple of references from your topic. They're worth using.
Personally, I think it's because people here aren't naturally interested, and they're prevented from exploiting even a tiny amount of interest because they'll be, as you said, "that guy".
The people who play tabletop games are, lets say, already social pariahs. If you even consider doing something that they do you are lowered one step on the staircase of society.
Note: I know I used a couple of references from your topic. They're worth using.
You should have mentioned Vin Diesel who claims to have played D&D as a child. He's turned from nerdy kid to ridiculously manly, no doubt due to that hobby alone.
I bought the game Ancient Odysseys: Treasure Awaits about a week ago under the recommendation of the original Check for Traps and it looks fun. I had a go creating a character. But I think you're right, there is a stigma about it. I'm already thinking about which friends I can ask to play with me even though I'm a Bona Fide Nerd, quoting Monty Python and Star Wars 'til the cows come home and everybody knows I am. It's like that is an acceptable level of nerdiness, the kind that is popular now, but Role Playing hasn't quite made it in yet. Very Strange.
I bought the game Ancient Odysseys: Treasure Awaits about a week ago under the recommendation of the original Check for Traps and it looks fun. I had a go creating a character. But I think you're right, there is a stigma about it. I'm already thinking about which friends I can ask to play with me even though I'm a Bona Fide Nerd, quoting Monty Python and Star Wars 'til the cows come home and everybody knows I am. It's like that is an acceptable level of nerdiness, the kind that is popular now, but Role Playing hasn't quite made it in yet. Very Strange.
I find myself in a weird position. I would enjoy playing D&D, various hurdles notwithstanding, and yet it's hard for me to look at a LARP'er and not feel judgmental. I'm sure its participants are fine enough people, but the activity just seems so wrong. So in a way I can empathize with people who look upon fantasy roleplay with disdain. No other hobby that I know of does that.
And yet even with D&D's moderate roleplay I feel a twinge of embarrassment. A few weeks ago my immediate family and I visited my older brother, and D&D was one of the main activities. Because it involved spending time together, my mom opted to join in, even though she had no prior experience.
tl;dr, I roleplayed with my mom. And something in the pit of my soul tells me I can never live that down.
ReverseEngineered is right when it comes to playing pretend. I don't know if we associate it with acting like something you're not or misguided wish-fulfillment, but regardless of context there's something about pretend play that feels childish and repulsive at my age, and I'm not exactly sure why.
And yet even with D&D's moderate roleplay I feel a twinge of embarrassment. A few weeks ago my immediate family and I visited my older brother, and D&D was one of the main activities. Because it involved spending time together, my mom opted to join in, even though she had no prior experience.
tl;dr, I roleplayed with my mom. And something in the pit of my soul tells me I can never live that down.
ReverseEngineered is right when it comes to playing pretend. I don't know if we associate it with acting like something you're not or misguided wish-fulfillment, but regardless of context there's something about pretend play that feels childish and repulsive at my age, and I'm not exactly sure why.
