Alpha Overhaul
Here's hoping other developers are paying attention to Alpha Protocol.
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Here's hoping other developers are paying attention to Alpha Protocol.
Read Full Article
Alpha Overhaul
- Thread starter Shamus Young
- Start date
RPG is indeed a fickle term. But it has come to mean what it has come to mean, like it or not.
That said, I myself prefer the "leveling up" meaning. But why can't we have both, like with Dragon Age? A deep leveling system and that "role playing", all in one.
Yes. I'm STILL whining about the heavily dumbed down Mass Effect 2. I mean, 1 was shallow enough. 2 was..really shallow.
Choices have REAL effects in AP, like you said.
And shouldn't Lionhead be in the first group? Last I checked, Fable 1 and 2 did have choices.
That said, I myself prefer the "leveling up" meaning. But why can't we have both, like with Dragon Age? A deep leveling system and that "role playing", all in one.
Yes. I'm STILL whining about the heavily dumbed down Mass Effect 2. I mean, 1 was shallow enough. 2 was..really shallow.
Choices have REAL effects in AP, like you said.
And shouldn't Lionhead be in the first group? Last I checked, Fable 1 and 2 did have choices.
I prefer games with good stories on top of good gameplay, it doesn't matter to me whether or not I have control of it.
Sure, in theory it sounds nice, but no one has executed it. More often than not you end up with a bland script that has to be written for a number of different circumstances and then spring board off of your choices to deliver consequences, which further dilutes the storytelling.
If you want to offer choice in a game where story takes precedent, offer a few meaningful choices that radically alter the story path. You start with one critical choice early in the game, and the two options radically change the path the narrative follows. After that, some hours of game down the road, you offer another choice that splits the story yet again. Finally, you offer one last choice before the climax and each one will give you a different ending. Using that structure, you can end up with twelve unique stories, and your choices actually did matter to the narrative.
I feel that if you want unbridled freedom of the narrative, either play D & D or write a book.
Sure, in theory it sounds nice, but no one has executed it. More often than not you end up with a bland script that has to be written for a number of different circumstances and then spring board off of your choices to deliver consequences, which further dilutes the storytelling.
If you want to offer choice in a game where story takes precedent, offer a few meaningful choices that radically alter the story path. You start with one critical choice early in the game, and the two options radically change the path the narrative follows. After that, some hours of game down the road, you offer another choice that splits the story yet again. Finally, you offer one last choice before the climax and each one will give you a different ending. Using that structure, you can end up with twelve unique stories, and your choices actually did matter to the narrative.
I feel that if you want unbridled freedom of the narrative, either play D & D or write a book.
Damn, the endless bad press on Alpha Protocol made me skip it, but this article really makes me want to play it.
Might have to squeeze it into my budget after all...
Might have to squeeze it into my budget after all...
First, thanks for saying what I have been thinking Shamus. For all it's flaws, I am seriously loving this game for the exact reasons you mentioned above.Galad said:
Now, for the question above. . . yes, there are tons of consequences based on your choices. The narritive is writen through Flashbacks, so they provide some kind of framework and then you are plunged into the mission hub. If you are looking for multiple endings, that is one thing, but the best part about the game is that the choices impact you way before you reach that point.
Curse You Shamus! Here I had gone and made up my mind about Alpha Protocol now here you are making me want to give it another chance! Why you gotta be like that?
Anyway this was quite a good read and a nice prodding of the Oblivion/Fallout 3 "Freedom is Everything" types. Hopefully Bioware and Bethesda ARE paying attention to AP and what it tried to do, because really it can only better the RPG genre and the gaming industry as a whole.
Anyway this was quite a good read and a nice prodding of the Oblivion/Fallout 3 "Freedom is Everything" types. Hopefully Bioware and Bethesda ARE paying attention to AP and what it tried to do, because really it can only better the RPG genre and the gaming industry as a whole.
He's completely right. I'm on my third run of Alpha Protocol and I know that even when this is finished, I will not have seen everything.
Eh, I never really considered Dragon Age's system deep. But then I'm holding it against older systems like Fallout and Arcanum; the former being fairly diverse yet easily comprehensible and the latter being tantalizingly restrictive for all it offered.Onyx Oblivion said:
True enough. But Dragon Age is clearly an RPG by either of the two definitions. It's got more depth in it than Oblivion/Morrowind/Fallout 3/Mass Effect/Mass Effect 2/Fable/Fable 2, does it not?DeadlyYellow said:
Well, maybe not Morrowind...Maybe.
I wrote something like this in the review I put up on the "User Review" section of the forums. Though not so indepth or so eloquently. I wonder why so many professional reviewers fail to mention this amazing aspect of the game.
So many games say they have choices and consequences, but they only really have choices. The consequence is usually just a change in the immediate dialog.
Anyway, I completely agree with everything in the article.
Edit: I just realized it sounds like I'm being lame and trying to advertise my review. That was not my intention. I didn't even put a link to it.
So many games say they have choices and consequences, but they only really have choices. The consequence is usually just a change in the immediate dialog.
Anyway, I completely agree with everything in the article.
Edit: I just realized it sounds like I'm being lame and trying to advertise my review. That was not my intention. I didn't even put a link to it.
As far as the systems go yes. Anything with party management offers more depth and complexity than the loner scenario, as well as the increase of number of stats. Bonus points if the stats are interlaced for the derivatives. The Fable series always felt (for me anyway) as in RPG in the same loose sense of the Legend of Zelda franchise. Really an action-adventure that somehow passes into the considered RPG genre without too much fuss. It's probably because the usual high-fantasy setting has become so standardized that anything sporting it just gets lumped into the group.Onyx Oblivion said:
Hmm. Yeah. I can certainly appreciate that while Knights of the Old Republic and Diablo and Final Fantasy could all be said to be evolutionary descendants of Dungeons and Dragons, it would still be nice if "RPG" wasn't the tent term used to describe them all. Likewise, I tend to agree that we sometimes seem to forget that "RPG" is an acronym for something meaningful: Role-Playing Game. And a levelling-up mechanic and a bunch of stats doesn't mean the player is actually playing a role. (Which is not to say the games that are mostly focused on stat-mechanics are necessarily inferior, but that they're closer to the war games D&D was based on plus story elements, rather than what D&D became, which was those war games plus player-invested unit personality.)
The article makes Alpha Protocol sound fascinating; unfortunately, the reviews have given me deep misgivings. As a PC gamer, I have some hope that the game might be patched to the point where I wouldn't feel my investment of time and focus might be betrayed by some shoddy code-checking. It does sound like they've succeeded in making a game where the player's choices will be rewarded simply in having a real effect on the in-game world. And I agree that I'd like to see that in more games; I've certainly had my share of frustrations with the limitations on some of Bethesda's recent stable. I'm just not sure how many bugs I'm willing to grit my teeth through in exchange for that kind of choice, or whether the "we 'depthed' ourselves into a disaster" story is one unique to Obsidian. I got burned by The Sith Lords; I'm not sure I want to go that route again.
The article makes Alpha Protocol sound fascinating; unfortunately, the reviews have given me deep misgivings. As a PC gamer, I have some hope that the game might be patched to the point where I wouldn't feel my investment of time and focus might be betrayed by some shoddy code-checking. It does sound like they've succeeded in making a game where the player's choices will be rewarded simply in having a real effect on the in-game world. And I agree that I'd like to see that in more games; I've certainly had my share of frustrations with the limitations on some of Bethesda's recent stable. I'm just not sure how many bugs I'm willing to grit my teeth through in exchange for that kind of choice, or whether the "we 'depthed' ourselves into a disaster" story is one unique to Obsidian. I got burned by The Sith Lords; I'm not sure I want to go that route again.
I don't know about you but Sith Lords was a debacle because it was unfinished story-wise not because of its gameplay bugs.Callate said:
There are some minor bugs in Alpha Protocol but most of them can be fixed through some editing of the config files. The others appear so rarely it doesn't really matter. In 5 playthroughs I've fallen through the floor exactly one time, 2 minutes away from a checkpoint.