The Game Stash: Show Some Respect
Do gamers ask for more respect than they're willing to offer?
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Do gamers ask for more respect than they're willing to offer?
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The Game Stash: Show Some Respect
- Thread starter Steve Butts
- Start date
Actually gamers do ask for absolute respect by demanding it other than leading by example and trying to be nice to non gamers, look at casual gamers, according to the hardcore crowd they should be burned at the stake for even thinking of shaking a wii mote.
With regards to Jack Thompson, I loved the guy, he was pure funny and now we are stuck with the much less funny Pachter in terms of mainstream news items, this is a huge shame. Personally I actually don't respect Robert Ebert's opinion on movies much less games, and your right I will ignore anything Ebert says because I've never respected his opinion.
Off Topic, Steve, I heard a vicious rumour you've turned 30 today, Happy Birthday,thanks for coming to this site since I don't have to go to the "other site" anymore to read your articles and beacuse I'm so happy I'm currently growing a handlebar moustache in your honour.
With regards to Jack Thompson, I loved the guy, he was pure funny and now we are stuck with the much less funny Pachter in terms of mainstream news items, this is a huge shame. Personally I actually don't respect Robert Ebert's opinion on movies much less games, and your right I will ignore anything Ebert says because I've never respected his opinion.
Off Topic, Steve, I heard a vicious rumour you've turned 30 today, Happy Birthday,thanks for coming to this site since I don't have to go to the "other site" anymore to read your articles and beacuse I'm so happy I'm currently growing a handlebar moustache in your honour.
Its funny. Gamers always ask to be respected and treated well, but whenever anyone criticizes games, gamers respond by sending rage-fueled hate-mail and sometimes death threats.
If gamers want to be treated well, perhaps they should start acting better.
Seriously, who cares what they think? Just play your games and be happy. I know you want to convince the general public that gamers aren't rage-fueled killing machines, but sending threats to an opponent of gaming doesn't exactly help our cause.
EDIT: Also, happy birthday you magnificently mustachioed man.
If gamers want to be treated well, perhaps they should start acting better.
Seriously, who cares what they think? Just play your games and be happy. I know you want to convince the general public that gamers aren't rage-fueled killing machines, but sending threats to an opponent of gaming doesn't exactly help our cause.
EDIT: Also, happy birthday you magnificently mustachioed man.
Irridium said:
Yeah, but it isn't only gamers that do that. Movie kids do it too. Not to say that it's okay, but as Steve said, it's human nature to want your opinions validated...
But I have to agree that sending spam and threats is getting a bit out of hand.
A nice read and appearantly it's your birthday so congratulations.
PS: And I am still waiting for the escapist store to start selling Game Stash membership cards
PS: And I am still waiting for the escapist store to start selling Game Stash membership cards
This is so true...Irridium said:
We want to be taken seriously, and...this happens. We cant expect people to actually want to sit down and talk to us, if, when they say something negative its like the re-enactment of some form of 4chan attack...
I think gamers in general need to get there head out there preverbial ass at times.
In what I mean that, you are people, like everyone else (despite how much you want to believe you are something superiour), Therefore you are governed by the rules which are in society...Alot of gamers I know, fall into that category, and are people who know what they are, and how to act...
Some though...are the ones who make the bad names for gamers.
I see what you are saying, but I think part of the problem is that there is such a large amount of assumed knowledge on the side of those with the negative bias. Not saying it's a good thing when some gamers explode at the negative implications, but if it were simply "I don't get it" then I doubt many gamers would mind nearly as much. Thompson and others make constant false statements about how evil games are and how they are corrupting anyone they come in contact with. Ebert, a highly visible and respected critic, makes completely baseless statements about the nature of games that he himself retracts later due to an admitted ignorance of the subject matter. Etc.
Many gamers do take personal ownership of their chosen hobby and this sort of commentary can seem akin to someone not saying that they don't get along with your family but instead saying that your family is a bunch of evil jerks that abuse kittens when not working for the puppy kicking commission in their day hours.
Many gamers do take personal ownership of their chosen hobby and this sort of commentary can seem akin to someone not saying that they don't get along with your family but instead saying that your family is a bunch of evil jerks that abuse kittens when not working for the puppy kicking commission in their day hours.
Your articles are quickly becoming a part of my preferred internet content. Also, happy birthday!
A very well thought out, well reasoned article. I feel more people need to read this (or something like it) so when the next serious Jack Thompson, or Atkins (can't remember his first name, the one from Australia) pops up, maybe we can get more respect by not threatening their life. I always feel ashamed whenever I read an article about that.
Happy birthday!
As to the topic, opinions that challenge our perceptions (as you yourself have put it) are always invaluable and will always be moreso appreciated, at least by myself too, than simple egostroking ones that encourage the feelings you already have. Or at the very least, they certainly aid personal growth a whole lot more.
To offer a more contentious example, I personally still do not view piracy through the eyes of those in the industry, who seem to equate it to a threat to their 'way of life', much like Al-Quaeda is touted every once in a while to hate the American 'way of life' elsewhere. But I still read Escapist articles on piracy and consider their points of view, because I can count on most of the contributors here to present me with at least a modicum of balance as opposed to the traditional gusto of "You must be STUPID to consider it anything but pure evil!" Heck, I even found myself changing my mind about piracy on certain points thanks to certain contributors here!
But the biggest trick of it all is to present such opinions in a respectful *manner*. In other words, "showing respect", as is put in this article, shouldn't apply to the subject or stance of said opinion, but rather to the manner in which it is presented.
However, this is where the trouble really starts. Because 'respect' itself is a word with many subjective meanings. To most it could mean nothing more than "Don't use curse words" or "Don't invoke Godwin", whereas the most respectful thing you can do, in my opinion, is to keep your arguments or opinions in the proper contexts of the debate at hand and to remember there are many layers to the argument you are making. Also, some people deliberately use cursewords and internet memes so as to purposefully *deflate* the argument and bring down the pretentious conceit that the argument is more important than it really is (the Somethingawful community is known to do this frequently and, unsurprisingly, it has caused them to be mislabeled as 'wholly disrespectful' by other, more traditionally-minded, communities because of this).
Then, as noted in the article, there is the *demand* of respect from people, who know next to nothing about a subject from first-hand experiences. My question is: "Why even bother convincing them otherwise?" I mean...a differing opinion is fine and dandy, but sometimes it just runs around in the same circles, using the same ridicolous leaps of logic and the only sensible thing to do at that point is to raise your hands and just decide it's not worth it anymore. Sometimes experience is really the only way to sway someone in an argument than through mere words, in the hopes that at the end of it all you *will* succeed at having them express some form of respect to the subject of your adoration.
As always it's about the level of agreement that different people and communities are ready to agree to I think. One person's 'respect' can simply be translated into 'kissing arse' by another. Personally I've grown used to the idea myself, that respect is a rare commodity on the internet. No one owes you any and you don't deserve such either, unless you have actions to put behind your name that would make you worthy of such - and even then it's contentious. So...it's a luxury in my view. And like any luxury overindulging in it can make one grow fat and lazy.
Then again...being deprived of it is no fun either and personally I don't buy into the whole "I'm shit, you're shit, the world is shit." argument either. It's more of a question behind what the result of you giving away respect to someone or something will be? Is it going to inflate the egoes of the people behind it to levels you think would be harmful to themselves and others in the long run? Will it encourage them towards what you think is genuinely good? Or will it just be a show of common courtesy (not something you come across on the internet too often to begin with).
As to the topic, opinions that challenge our perceptions (as you yourself have put it) are always invaluable and will always be moreso appreciated, at least by myself too, than simple egostroking ones that encourage the feelings you already have. Or at the very least, they certainly aid personal growth a whole lot more.
To offer a more contentious example, I personally still do not view piracy through the eyes of those in the industry, who seem to equate it to a threat to their 'way of life', much like Al-Quaeda is touted every once in a while to hate the American 'way of life' elsewhere. But I still read Escapist articles on piracy and consider their points of view, because I can count on most of the contributors here to present me with at least a modicum of balance as opposed to the traditional gusto of "You must be STUPID to consider it anything but pure evil!" Heck, I even found myself changing my mind about piracy on certain points thanks to certain contributors here!
But the biggest trick of it all is to present such opinions in a respectful *manner*. In other words, "showing respect", as is put in this article, shouldn't apply to the subject or stance of said opinion, but rather to the manner in which it is presented.
However, this is where the trouble really starts. Because 'respect' itself is a word with many subjective meanings. To most it could mean nothing more than "Don't use curse words" or "Don't invoke Godwin", whereas the most respectful thing you can do, in my opinion, is to keep your arguments or opinions in the proper contexts of the debate at hand and to remember there are many layers to the argument you are making. Also, some people deliberately use cursewords and internet memes so as to purposefully *deflate* the argument and bring down the pretentious conceit that the argument is more important than it really is (the Somethingawful community is known to do this frequently and, unsurprisingly, it has caused them to be mislabeled as 'wholly disrespectful' by other, more traditionally-minded, communities because of this).
Then, as noted in the article, there is the *demand* of respect from people, who know next to nothing about a subject from first-hand experiences. My question is: "Why even bother convincing them otherwise?" I mean...a differing opinion is fine and dandy, but sometimes it just runs around in the same circles, using the same ridicolous leaps of logic and the only sensible thing to do at that point is to raise your hands and just decide it's not worth it anymore. Sometimes experience is really the only way to sway someone in an argument than through mere words, in the hopes that at the end of it all you *will* succeed at having them express some form of respect to the subject of your adoration.
As always it's about the level of agreement that different people and communities are ready to agree to I think. One person's 'respect' can simply be translated into 'kissing arse' by another. Personally I've grown used to the idea myself, that respect is a rare commodity on the internet. No one owes you any and you don't deserve such either, unless you have actions to put behind your name that would make you worthy of such - and even then it's contentious. So...it's a luxury in my view. And like any luxury overindulging in it can make one grow fat and lazy.
Then again...being deprived of it is no fun either and personally I don't buy into the whole "I'm shit, you're shit, the world is shit." argument either. It's more of a question behind what the result of you giving away respect to someone or something will be? Is it going to inflate the egoes of the people behind it to levels you think would be harmful to themselves and others in the long run? Will it encourage them towards what you think is genuinely good? Or will it just be a show of common courtesy (not something you come across on the internet too often to begin with).
I can definitely agree with the first half of your article. Anytime I see a new movie I have a number of critics whom I regularly read. Sometimes they agreed with me about the movie, sometimes they didn't, but that's completely irrelevant to me. It's about why they agreed or disagreed with my stance on the movie. To me a good critic isn't about praising the movies I love and slamming the ones I dislike (despite many people judging a critic by such merits), it's about how detailed they are in explaining their opinion.
It's a movie critic's job, not to just watch a movie, but to watch for the kinds of things that the average person won't think to watch for. Was the movie overbearing and completely off-cue with the action of the movie? Did the story feel forced and thus seem less plausible? Was the action hard to see? I also think a good movie critic should do his homework, which is one of the reasons that MovieBob is probably my favorite movie critic. He doesn't just tell me that a movie is bad, he goes into someone of the production nightmare that attributed to the movie being bad. Last minute changes, director being swapped-out multiple times, script changes... all that jazz.
The same, in my opinion, goes for judging a video game. A quick post on the forums can get me enough thumbs protruding up or down to tell me if a game is good, so if I'm reading someone's review I want a little more meat than that.
I also agree with the rest of the article. We shouldn't be attacking Ebert's credibility when arguing that games are art, but rather we should be challenging that his lack of experience in gaming renders his opinion less valid than that of his thoughts on movies. If he says that a movie is like diving head-first into pool of horseshit, then it's probably worth sitting around to see what he has to say. However, until he actually sits down and spends some time getting immersed within a game, then he can't possibly know for sure whether or not games are art.
It's a movie critic's job, not to just watch a movie, but to watch for the kinds of things that the average person won't think to watch for. Was the movie overbearing and completely off-cue with the action of the movie? Did the story feel forced and thus seem less plausible? Was the action hard to see? I also think a good movie critic should do his homework, which is one of the reasons that MovieBob is probably my favorite movie critic. He doesn't just tell me that a movie is bad, he goes into someone of the production nightmare that attributed to the movie being bad. Last minute changes, director being swapped-out multiple times, script changes... all that jazz.
The same, in my opinion, goes for judging a video game. A quick post on the forums can get me enough thumbs protruding up or down to tell me if a game is good, so if I'm reading someone's review I want a little more meat than that.
I also agree with the rest of the article. We shouldn't be attacking Ebert's credibility when arguing that games are art, but rather we should be challenging that his lack of experience in gaming renders his opinion less valid than that of his thoughts on movies. If he says that a movie is like diving head-first into pool of horseshit, then it's probably worth sitting around to see what he has to say. However, until he actually sits down and spends some time getting immersed within a game, then he can't possibly know for sure whether or not games are art.
I like to read reviews after I've viewed or experienced the content. I'll never read reviews before a movie, so after is the only time I can take 'em in. If I liked it, I'll usually read one or two bad reviews to get a sense of why others might not have liked it. Sometimes, the reviews are crap. Nothing but ill-informed jabs or ignorant rants. Other times I'll get a real perspective on a film that I'd never considered. However, I don't like to read too many bad comments about a film or game that I enjoyed. In this case, I think ignorance really is bliss. If I read too many, it may start to affect my opinion of the game negatively. Sure I may still like it, but that problem I never noticed might nag at me. Sometimes I'd rather have a biased enjoyment of an experience than a well-reasoned, moderately enjoyable experience.
You'll never get young adults to "lead by example", but there's plenty of gamers who are decent, respectable people.
That's basicly humanity in a nutshell. If you judge humanity solely on the worst of us, we don't have a lot to pardon us, but if you look at us as a whole, just take a peak at our accomplishments; it took us thousands of years to go from stone tools to steel, but in just one century, we went from horse and carraiges to nano-technology. Hell we went from horsepower to walking on the moon in less than that amount of time. I was able to survive cancer by recieving modern medical treatment while watching hi-def moves on what is basicly a computer in the palm of my friggin hand, when my grandfather had to die of it in the 40's
That's basicly humanity in a nutshell. If you judge humanity solely on the worst of us, we don't have a lot to pardon us, but if you look at us as a whole, just take a peak at our accomplishments; it took us thousands of years to go from stone tools to steel, but in just one century, we went from horse and carraiges to nano-technology. Hell we went from horsepower to walking on the moon in less than that amount of time. I was able to survive cancer by recieving modern medical treatment while watching hi-def moves on what is basicly a computer in the palm of my friggin hand, when my grandfather had to die of it in the 40's
Unfortunately, however, a frankly sad number of people who badmouth games and hold outdated beliefs are either in power or at least have a degree of influence with people. I agree that people shouldn't be overcome with hatred when it's brought up, but defending a passion is a worthwhile cause, I would say. I very much doubt that movie fans or music fans would appreciate their hobby as a whole being labelled as dangerous. I'm well aware that there are films and there are songs which are deemed unfit for consumption or attacked by the big wigs at the cracker factory, but I never hear anything from anyone that matters that even implies an inherent danger to films and music.Irridium said:
And a very merry, belated womb-poppin' anniversary for that most mustachioed of men, Steve Butts.
I think that gamers will think that anyone who thinks badly of gaming has an uninformed opinion. If a movie critic like Roger Ebert actually sat down and played a game, decided it wasn't for him and proceeded to blast the industry on TV, we would cry out, "But you didn't play this game, or this one! You clearly have no idea what you're speaking of." In the end, I think that we'll always hate anyone who hates games, no matter how valid their points may be.