View from the Road: An Axe to Grind, Part 2
- Thread starter John Funk
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I'll accept the argument for Grinding as an equalizer, but as downtime or a pacing tool, it sucks.
If a game needs downtime there are better ways to get it. Socializing is one that any MMO can offer, so why not encourage that over grinding?
And as for a pacing tool, that's a nice way of saying its filler. Well too bad. Portal was 2 hours long and it was perfect. Many people said that was because it didn't over stay its welcome. Point being, if you can't make the pacing of your game stand up for more than a certain number of hours, either you rewrite, rescale or you dump the project. You do not make players stare at boring numbers. Shame on players for doing it, too.
If a game needs downtime there are better ways to get it. Socializing is one that any MMO can offer, so why not encourage that over grinding?
And as for a pacing tool, that's a nice way of saying its filler. Well too bad. Portal was 2 hours long and it was perfect. Many people said that was because it didn't over stay its welcome. Point being, if you can't make the pacing of your game stand up for more than a certain number of hours, either you rewrite, rescale or you dump the project. You do not make players stare at boring numbers. Shame on players for doing it, too.
There's also economic balance within the game to consider, at least for WoW. You can't learn the higher level crafting professions until you are level 65, and that prevents people from being able to just make a bunch of level 1 crafters of every profession.
For the most part, though, I think the leveling time in WoW is way over the top. It doesn't take 6-10 days of gametime to learn your character. Once you already have a character at 80 who you can do raiding/pvp/whatever with, leveling becomes this relaxing sidegame you can spend time on when there's nothing else to do. But before 80, it's just a wall keeping you out of what most people consider the "real" content of the game.
For the most part, though, I think the leveling time in WoW is way over the top. It doesn't take 6-10 days of gametime to learn your character. Once you already have a character at 80 who you can do raiding/pvp/whatever with, leveling becomes this relaxing sidegame you can spend time on when there's nothing else to do. But before 80, it's just a wall keeping you out of what most people consider the "real" content of the game.
I love the economic transaction analogy. I play games in a variety of genres; some I'm good at, some not so much. Regardless, even in most games, there's That One Part that gives me exceptional grief. Perhaps it's because I'm just not fast enough to pull off the jump, or I just can't memorize that boss's patterns. For example, on my second God of War I play-through (Normal Mode) I kicked butt--until I got to Ares's final form. I simply couldn't beat him. I tried for two weeks and couldn't do it. I swallowed my pride and let it drop me to Easy mode--and I killed Ares in 20 seconds. I was good at almost the entire game; there was just that one part I didn't "get."
The point is that it's nice to have various sources to raise "capital" from so I can buy my way further in the game. Not all games let you change difficulty mode (if they even have one!) mid-game. Game designers can't foresee every possible hang-up for every player.
The point is that it's nice to have various sources to raise "capital" from so I can buy my way further in the game. Not all games let you change difficulty mode (if they even have one!) mid-game. Game designers can't foresee every possible hang-up for every player.
Last point is very true, whenever I want to grind my team a few levels in HeartGold or EV train, I'll flick on the telly and my attention will be more on Cold Case than the recurring Elite Four Pokémon I grind against.
Plus I wouldn't see an issue with having character classes that are designed around professions. Why can't I be a blacksmith with mechanics similar to other classes (I would have certain techniques that I'd need to time to craft weapons at a forge and my success rate determines the quality of the item) and the ability to run my own shop and so on? You can downplay the grind by making in-game activities more varied and by promoting other aspects of the game for downtime, such as (another user pointed out) socialization.oneplus999 said:
My biggest problem with WoW is that it's pretty much all combat. You have some fun flirts and animations but your ability to customize your character is extremely limited and nearly every interaction you have with other players relates to grinding or raiding. As a consequence less skilled players have to run high-level dungeons in order to get their money's worth and it creates numerous issues for Blizzard in terms of how they need to balance the encounters. WoW can be challenging but since I returned to the game in March it hasn't been. I'm all for making it less time intensive but the fact that I've only been challenged in one or two instances (not accounting for terrible PUGs) has been a major turn off.
With that said, I agree that there's a place for grinding. Grinding in itself can be enjoyable when it's implemented well. Sometimes I just really love the mechanics of a game, or there's one enemy I love fighting, and it's great for creating downtime between boss fights. However, I think that's the only time it should be used to create downtime, the rest of the time it should be more like a hard-coded tutorial that goes unnoticed while you progress through the story. I'd love it if leveling felt like a side-effect of doing things that interested me rather than serving as my primary goal. While WoW can be played that way it doesn't feel like it's geared toward that mindset-something that could be solved by taking an already lively world and adding a bit of vibrancy to it. They've got the right idea with the goblin starter zone. I'll be curious to see if the rest of the grind changes that significantly come Cataclysm.
"If a gamer does not complete a game, then they've wasted time, money, and design resources on content that the player never sees." After spending ~5 minutes trying to find words that explain why I can not completely agree with this statement and failing (There is something in the fundamental logic of the argument I disagree with, I just can't pin it down right now) I'll just link to a news post that comes close on a parallel issue. I'll have to think more on this.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/102358-Deus-Ex-3-Team-Didnt-Get-it-at-First-Says-Director
"... the high cost of game development had created a culture where everything a team built had to be something that the player would actually see, so convincing his team to make things that might be missed entirely was difficult, and that he had to stress that the whole point was letting players explore the game however they wanted and not leading them around by the nose."
Why does it have to mean that the developer, necessarily failed if the player doesn't finish the game?
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/102358-Deus-Ex-3-Team-Didnt-Get-it-at-First-Says-Director
"... the high cost of game development had created a culture where everything a team built had to be something that the player would actually see, so convincing his team to make things that might be missed entirely was difficult, and that he had to stress that the whole point was letting players explore the game however they wanted and not leading them around by the nose."
Why does it have to mean that the developer, necessarily failed if the player doesn't finish the game?
I'd say it's much akin to an author having failed if the reader doesn't get to the end of the book.Slizaro said:
Fundamentally, they're the same; skilled craftsmen who produce something for people to experience. If people don't experience it fully, then it's the craftsman who has failed not the audience.
This all looks good to me. Personally I don't see the point in any game having grinding, because when it comes down to it grinding really is just filler and there's so much more that a game could focus on. Like how crunchy english said, socializing can be great for downtime, because I know most of my WoW time was spent dicking around in org chatting.
As for teaches players how to play, that more applies to the act of leveling not just grinding. Because like you said sometimes, "You want to sit down, turn your brain off, and do something that requires next to no thought."
And as for "Nobody wants a game that's all grind, all the time." That's incorrect. FFXI and XIV are pretty much all grind all the time, from level 1 to level cap. And in fact the players of those games enjoy grinding. The only freshness those games have is that eventually you need to party up and grind to get anywhere.
As for teaches players how to play, that more applies to the act of leveling not just grinding. Because like you said sometimes, "You want to sit down, turn your brain off, and do something that requires next to no thought."
And as for "Nobody wants a game that's all grind, all the time." That's incorrect. FFXI and XIV are pretty much all grind all the time, from level 1 to level cap. And in fact the players of those games enjoy grinding. The only freshness those games have is that eventually you need to party up and grind to get anywhere.
But how much of that 2 hours do you clearly remember? Maybe this is because I'm the exception and I enjoyed Portal without subsequently expecting its glorious descent from the heavens, but the only memorable part for me was the final boss fight. Mind you, I still had a lot of fun going through the game for that two hours, but the fact is that Portal was only 2 hours long because it didn't have enough significant moments to have it last more than that.Crunchy English said:
I still prefer that to an bloated 10-hour version of the same content, but I vastly prefer a game like Persona 3, which took me 100 hours on my first playthrough, and had a lot more cool stuff happen throughout. Yes, there were a few moments of grinding, but it was ingeniously paced so that just when you start to get sick of grinding, they reveal something awesome either gameplay- or plot-wise. Overall, I'd argue that Persona 3 was a much better game because of that; the contrast between tedium and novelty allows you to enjoy its most glorious moments even more.
I guess that makes me super awesome at Pokemon then, since I was able to beat gym leaders while being way below their levels.
Well all of them except Whitney in Goldenrod.
Fuck her and her Miltank.
Anyway, more on-topic. Good article, and I agree. However grinding still is a slippery-slope. There's always a chance of a game completely relying on it, rather than using it to strengthen the experience.
Well all of them except Whitney in Goldenrod.
Fuck her and her Miltank.
Anyway, more on-topic. Good article, and I agree. However grinding still is a slippery-slope. There's always a chance of a game completely relying on it, rather than using it to strengthen the experience.
Grinding is not a good pacing tool. It kills the pacing by making it go far too slow.
And as for teaching people to play I really don't think you need to kill 1,000 members of local wildlife for you to figure out "hey, fireball is a good spell".
Again me and Demon's Souls but I much prefer the Demon's Souls approach to teaching the player. Here is a brief tutorial. We tell you what buttons do what. Now go figure everything out for yourself. Oh what's that? The game is scary? The game is kicking your ass? Then you must be doing it WRONG! Try another approach (oh and you can't have your healthbar anymore. You don't deserve it, weakling).
And as for teaching people to play I really don't think you need to kill 1,000 members of local wildlife for you to figure out "hey, fireball is a good spell".
Again me and Demon's Souls but I much prefer the Demon's Souls approach to teaching the player. Here is a brief tutorial. We tell you what buttons do what. Now go figure everything out for yourself. Oh what's that? The game is scary? The game is kicking your ass? Then you must be doing it WRONG! Try another approach (oh and you can't have your healthbar anymore. You don't deserve it, weakling).
good article, and I even agree, to a point, that it has it's place in teaching players how to play the game.
I still despise it, though, and whenever I find out that it's a major part of game X, that usually means I'm not buying it. Plain and simple, it isn't fun, for me at least. Ofcourse I acknowledge that there are people who find mindless repetition "fun", but I am not one of them.
I still despise it, though, and whenever I find out that it's a major part of game X, that usually means I'm not buying it. Plain and simple, it isn't fun, for me at least. Ofcourse I acknowledge that there are people who find mindless repetition "fun", but I am not one of them.
I think this is the best of the grind articles, all of which I have enjoyed.
The grind is necessary in almost any RPG (well any based around gameplay and not story), and in many cases is the best part of the game!
Who here likes Diablo? Diablo is a grind, the entire game, the entire time. It's a freaking amazing game, and lets you play with your friends and kill shit and love it, but it's a grind. To play, you click on an enemy (or enemies) and wait for phat lewt to pop out. Then you do it again. Then you call your friend and get him online and click on guys together. It's repetitive, almost neverending, and an absolute blast. But a grind nontheless.
The grind is essential to any MMO, you guys. It always needs to be there, but with good enough game design, players shouldn't notice it.
When the grind FEELS like a grind, its a cue to developers that their gameplay needs improvement.
The grind is necessary in almost any RPG (well any based around gameplay and not story), and in many cases is the best part of the game!
Who here likes Diablo? Diablo is a grind, the entire game, the entire time. It's a freaking amazing game, and lets you play with your friends and kill shit and love it, but it's a grind. To play, you click on an enemy (or enemies) and wait for phat lewt to pop out. Then you do it again. Then you call your friend and get him online and click on guys together. It's repetitive, almost neverending, and an absolute blast. But a grind nontheless.
The grind is essential to any MMO, you guys. It always needs to be there, but with good enough game design, players shouldn't notice it.
When the grind FEELS like a grind, its a cue to developers that their gameplay needs improvement.
Will, Lance, and the Dark-Type Elite 4 trainer were massive pains for me. Will because his pokemon kept using confusion. And against the Elite 4 it seems whenever I get confused my pokemon always hurt themselves. With that Dark-type trainer its that damn Umbreon and Houndoom that really screw me up. And with Lance, well his Aerodactyle is a ***** to take down.John Funk said:I beat Lance while 10+ levels below himIrridium said:
I can breeze through Koga and Bruno though. Thanks to my Typhlosion, Espeon, and Lapras they don't stand much of a chance.
FFT:
The Monster Hunter games are probably entirely grinding, but they don't feel like it. I've put 250+ hours into MHFU and it's still just as great as the beginning of the game. I don't know what point I was trying to make. Just throwing something out there.
The Monster Hunter games are probably entirely grinding, but they don't feel like it. I've put 250+ hours into MHFU and it's still just as great as the beginning of the game. I don't know what point I was trying to make. Just throwing something out there.
I don't know... I don't really enjoy socializing all that much and it doesn't add anything to the game for me (the Multiplayer part of MMORPG is the last thing I care about).Crunchy English said:
The problem I have with a 2 hour game is that I feel empty inside. Portal was fun but you can't really compare it, it had a good mixture of elements that made a unique experience. But the reason why it could overstay its welcome, unlike many games that are Massive (Fallout, Dragon Age, WoW) was because it was essentially a puzzle game and puzzle games get boring fast. Hell, there is not even a possible way to grind unless you count check and fail playstyle as some kind of grinding (and maybe it should be)
Personally, I need a long game like I need a long book, I rarely feel immersed in under 10 hours even with good elements and if I really enjoy it it feels disappointing.
And I'm a person who enjoys numbers, as an RPG gamer (from DnD to WoW) numbers have always been part of the game.
I also want to support the whole downtime argument. Grinding allows a game to be a relaxing experience, which draws many in do to our hectic lifestyles in today's society. It's like TV but controlled by your input and with a Massive feel to it (when I say Massive it is comparable to a TV show like Battlestar) so it feels more satisfying while still being comfortable.
All but the last point seem to apply to leveling, which I consider a different animal from grinding. I hate the kind of design that forces you to repeat uninteresting combat against nearly harmless foes -either to complete a quest, reach a necessary level for the next section, or acquire materials and wealth. That's what I call grinding.