The Needles: I Want My D&D

Andy Chalk

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Nov 12, 2002
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The Needles: I Want My D&D

Andy Chalk contemplates D&D, Neverwinter Nights 2, and exactly where computer RPGs went wrong.

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TheKbob

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Hey, I agree... hence I did not plop down money for NWN... I would suggest trying out The Witcher,... you basically are playing the 3.5 book complete scoundrel in that game and it's pretty easy in terms of actual application.

HIGHLY Recommended, the devs are still backing it and putting in overtime, even after the games release, to make it so much more. Support them with your $$$! :D

OH and give D&D 4th Edition a try. Min/Maxing people you probably love to hate are crying "It's not real D&D!" (IE because they cant stack up 5 rule books and break the game,...), but for someone like you who wants simple rules and just more roleplaying fun with friends, it's a HUGE recommendation. Take $23~ and drop it on the PHB over on Amazon and just give it a read. It's amazing, my girl even wants to play it!
 

Jordan Deam

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If I recall, Andy's spent plenty of quality time with The Witcher already. I seem to remember something about some type of card ...
 

TheKbob

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Well Im new to the Escapist, so don't throw stones *ducks*

And if you are alluding to the... oh so Lude cards in The Witcher, then lol...
 

unangbangkay

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I don't see the place where you think D&D RPGs suddenly "got it wrong".

AD&Ds rules were more arcane than anything the 3rd edition games could come up with, the only thing different was that there were options for multiclassing and min-max-based character building in the 3rd Edition games, just as in the pen-and-paper rules.

However, the key word here is OPTION. In that you could choose to take it, or not.

You didn't have to use them. Any of the neverwinter nights games were easy enough with any single-classed character. If you didn't want it to be, it was not a numbers game.

Also consider that both NWN and NWN2 have much heavier multiplayer focus than any of their predecessors, which means providing a whole bunch of rules and options that might not have made a lot of sense in the main campaign. That means, yes, adding in the option of playing a Svirfneblin Arcane Scholar of Candlekeep. Prestige classes, multi-classing, min-maxing, all of that, because players running their own campaigns constructed with the tools would want it.

All this reads like is that you don't like building a character. Fair enough. But wait! There's a "recommended" option for every single level in any class as you go through the campaign! And it worked! Why didn't you pick that option rather than fault the games themselves?

I for one consider Mask of the Betrayer one of the finest D&D RPG stories since Planescape Torment. I can't fault you for "throwing your hands up" because you thought crunching some numbers (even when you didn't really have to) was too hard, but frankly speaking, you didn't give it a chance.
 

BloodSquirrel

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I would cream myself if I found out that Bioware was going to make a 4th edition D&D RPG. Not only is 4th edition a better game in of itself than third, but it's probably better suited to a video game as well.
 

unangbangkay

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BloodSquirrel said:
I would cream myself if I found out that Bioware was going to make a 4th edition D&D RPG. Not only is 4th edition a better game in of itself than third, but it's probably better suited to a video game as well.
You'd have to ask Atari, since they own the D&D license as far as I know. Obsidian did an admirable job with NWN2, IMO, and their next expansion seems to presage some of the changes imminent in the 4th edition of the Forgotten Realms setting (due august in P&P).
 

Aries_Split

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4ed is a video game transistioned to paper. Which sadly, I don't like. I'm sticking with 3.5. Until they fx 4.0 in 4.5
 

Saevus

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Aries_Split said:
4ed is a video game transistioned to paper. Which sadly, I don't like. I'm sticking with 3.5. Until they fx 4.0 in 4.5
Well said.

I can't say that I entirely agree with the article, as I've never really minded crunching numbers to produce a viable class. I just make sure that it isn't munchkin to an extreme, and I'm happy with it.

But nearly every RPG from NWN on has been tripe, in my opinion, with zero imagination. Not because of a focus on the rules, but because the real special parts of D&D - storytelling, characters, all things present in the Infinity Engine games - have been left swaying in the wind. Chalk it up to trends, a risky market, consumerism, whatever - but for the past years, the RPG market has been desperately, and depressingly, dry.
 

TheKbob

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Aries_Split said:
4ed is a video game transistioned to paper. Which sadly, I don't like. I'm sticking with 3.5. Until they fx 4.0 in 4.5
I happily do like! Played many a 3.5 with skilled and unskilled players and the book garbage and rules checks got quite old. Would rather 4.0, less focus on mechanics, more focus on story and roleplay, by far.

Plus, if you even have one person who min-maxes in 3.5, it ruins it for the rest of the party because they become the pack mules for said awesome character (usually Cleric, Wizard, someone using the book of broken swords, or w/e the case may be). I have been guilty of this, as well.

4.0 might be a video game on paper, but I'm cool with that if it means more people will be willing to play. It's about the friends, the time, and the story. Not perfecting characters with "uber options" in about 35 splat books with different rules sets for each, almost.

Divine Metamagic = Game over ;)
 

unangbangkay

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In any case, 4e may well be easier to translate into gameplay since it has a more definitive, distinctive assignment of powers and abilities, and is less dependent on gear as opposed to power selection. There isn't even any multiclassing aside from cross-class power exchange, so instead of having a munchkin-esque Fighter 2/Wizard 8/Eldritch Knight 10, you can have a fighter who bought a bunch of wizard powers and vice-versa.

Then again, a dev mentioned to me that with so many powers like "Hunter's Mark" which confer benefits and penalties simply based on target assignment at will, turn-by-turn, it can get kind of complicated, especially if in a real-time design.

But that's for devs to consider, not me.
 

TheKbob

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Im going to try my hand at DMing with 4th Edition just because it is "easier" or "more casual". I find that everything it going for lowest common denominator these days. It will either bottom out or a new niche markets will rise up... kind of a like a cycle that has maybe happened once or twice before... hmmm.

;)
 

Razzle Bathbone

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The author of the article is confused. There were no prestige classes (like arcane archer) in Neverwinter Nights.

If he was playing a sequel or expansion pack, I assume it would bear mentioning.
 

Korhal

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I like 4E... they took the rules out of the roleplay, and now the rules really only exist to frame the combat and other such actions that need rules to avoid arguments. It's far more freeform and open to RP, and powergaming (which, while fine... nay, the PURPOSE in a video game, is an RP killer like no other) is just not as efficient as creating a character and getting into the action and having fun.
 

Aries_Split

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I like 4e when the DM changes the rules right. 4e has the basis to be fun, but it DEFINATELY needs to be tweaked. I just don't want people to think I'm a rabid hater of it.
 

unangbangkay

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The author of the article is confused. There were no prestige classes (like arcane archer) in Neverwinter Nights
Neverwinter Nights Diamond Edition includes all the expansion packs and most of the DLC, and installs them all at the same time, retroactively adding many prestige classes to the earlier campaigns.
 

runtheplacered

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So.. the author hates making characters? Is that what's going on here? They want to take out the options to make anything other then a fighter, thief, cleric, and mage? I guess he/she should go play Oblivion, then.

If not, then I think I completely missed the point.
 

Trogundak

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YOU ARE MY HERO! ;-)

Thank you mister Chalk for such a great article! Just like you, I really miss the word "Advanced" in Dongeons & Dragons crpgs and I really hate those "brand new games with bad stories, shallow characters and lots, lots, lots of unmeaningful options".

Long live Baldur's gate, Planescape: Torment and... IMAGINATION in D&D CRPGs!!!

Cheers