7 year old commits suicide

Ragsnstitches

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TomLikesGuitar said:
Susan Arendt said:
TomLikesGuitar said:
Why do I feel like all the anti-bullying crusaders were never bullied?

I was bullied to a pretty substantial degree, and it made me a better person. My parents got a divorce when I was young and it taught me about life. I was emotionally stable enough to handle it, and this kid was NOT.
Good for you. I was bullied to the point of wanting to kill myself because I couldn't bear the thought of life being an unending stream of unhappiness and loneliness. The only reason - literally, the only reason I'm here today - is because someone at school told me that if you kill yourself your family has to clean it up and I believed them. If you made it through bullying with flying colors, good for you. Appreciate your good fortune instead of looking down on those who weren't as lucky.
I'm not looking down on anyone. All I'm saying is if you are considering suicide because of childhood bullying, it's because you're kind of a soft person. Being soft will get you nowhere in life, and if you honestly ONLY didn't kill yourself because you didn't want your parents to clean it up, you had/have a serious problem that needs to be addressed.

Anyone who has studied psychology will tell you that it is NEVER normal to seriously consider taking your life, and if you have you NEED to get help.

Now, there are laws in place today (in America at least) that weren't in place just 40 years ago as far as abuse in school. My dad went to school in Newark in the 60's and bullying is NOTHING today compared to what it was back then. Yet, today, bullying is more of an issue. There's MUCH less physical bullying and, hell, there's probably more bullying online than in real life, but STILL kids are taking it to these drastic measures.

I was always a smaller kid, and I got picked on a lot (They called me "stick boy" lol) and I got my ass kicked a few times. The first time it happened, I told my dad, and he told me that it would end when I stopped letting it happen. Jesus Christ did I try so hard to not let it happen. I fought back and would get beat harder. I tried to be friends, and was ridiculed for it. But one day in junior year of high school, it just stopped. I felt amazing because I never gave up, and was a much bigger, more confident person as a result.

Now while your milage may vary, I know for a fact that a lot of these new "cyber-bullied" kids don't have it nearly as rough as I had it, but they are still going as far as killing themselves. The problem has to lie somewhere that hasn't been explored yet.

Maybe it's not a problem with bullying, but it's a problem with the fact that we are making our kids a little too soft by trying to protect them from everything and not teaching them to stand up for themselves like my dad's parents did. And like my dad did.

I'm NOT saying that's an absolute truth. But it makes a lot more sense than that the kids today are just becoming soft for no reason.

Ragsnstitches said:
Okay, let's cut out the filler and rhetoric here...

Have you ever had a thought of suicide? Have you ever come to a point where that felt like a choice? Because what's apparent here is that you seem to think people who make this choice do it out of lazyness or ignorance, rather then desperation. You seem to discount the notion that it may even have an underlying medical conditioned... YES people can be depressed for reasons other then external stimuli.
Of course I've thought of suicide. It's ALWAYS a choice. It's ALWAYS the easy choice. It ALWAYS has and always will be the easy choice. The thing is that a strong person will ALWAYS come to the conclusion that suicide is not a viable solution and will fight to fix the problem. A weak person will conclude that suicide is in fact the best solution, and that person needs help. We instinctively know that suicide is the worst way out, but the fact that so many people feel pity for suicide cases makes it almost an alluring concept.

I VERY VERY HIGHLY DOUBT THAT ANYONE WHO COMMITS SUICIDE IS THINKING ANYTHING OTHER THAN "That'll show 'em." OR "They'll be sorry when I'm gone."

If we looked at suicide with a less pitying light, maybe less people would seriously consider it.

I literally just said it could have been a medical condition in the last post. I hate to say this again, but semantics plays a huge part here. If the fault lies with a disease the person has, does the fault also not lie with the person? It's clear Dahmer had some sort of mental disease, so is it not his FAULT that he killed those people?

The answer does not exist here, and no one should truly be faulted in this freak accident (as I said before).

Also, the argument that others MIGHT have it worse,
Trust me, others DO have it worse. I don't care if this kid was beaten daily (which I highly doubt), others DO have it worse

when you yourself said you just don't know what led to this kids suicide, just doesn't sit well with me. You decide to settle on something mundane and insignificant as an example, something that grossly underestimates the problems that lead to suicide, then arrogantly claim that others have it worse. Blanket Statement much? Of course others have it worse, but does that make the problems less significant for that individual? There isn't a metric system to judge the severity of a person mental health nor is there a value system to what influence causes what damage to an individual.

Everyone has different thresholds. Willpower is not evenly distributed among communities. We are not living in an age in the west where where sick babies are left to die or plague victims are mercifully executed. We advocate helping others, like people born with mental/physical defects, people who struggle with social norms shouldn't be abandoned...
And I think all of this pandering to children and forcing them to accept everyone is a part of the reason why bullying has evolved.

Sorry boss, but it sounds like you are or have been a very troubled person. While I feel for you, I can't help but blame you for your problems. I can't help but think that if you were a more weathered person you might not be this way.

I can't relate to a lot of people, I've lived in multiple different countries, and I don't look at friendships or family as meaningfully as others do. When I was in Africa, I saw children quite literally starving to death. I saw children whose parent's had recently died get dragged away to orphanages. Now, in America, I look at a kid who fucking hangs himself over mommy and daddy issues and getting a little beaten up in school and, SORRY, but I can't help but blame the child.

You might be right in a sense though. My anger is somewhat blinding. It is the way the society raises these kids that truly makes them so susceptible to the idea of suicide and it really is unfair to blame them for the way they were raised, but the problem is NOT that bullying needs to stop (it won't).

I strongly believe the problem is that as we evolve as a society into this happy-go-lucky ball of acceptance, we are forgetting how to teach the youth how to defend themselves against hate.

I love America, and I believe people are truly the same wherever you go, but America is one of, if not THE worst offender of super ultra political correct bullshit.

So sure, I try to be nice to everyone I meet until they give me a reason to do otherwise. Most sane people do. But the things I've seen and done show me that I should ALWAYS be prepared for the worst. There are things far worse than bullying and divorce in this world, and if you can't handle that then you really have a lot in store for you.

EDIT:
RazadaMk2 said:
I see this childs death as a failing of society as a whole.
I agree, but in a different way... see above.
Okay, this topic cuts close to both of us, and I think some wires were crossed along the way. I never said (or meant to at the very least) that the way to stop suicide is to stop bullying. Bullying, as far as I'm concerned, isn't the only contributor to suicidal tendencies. But I can assure you, the lack of a safety net for those been bullied doesn't help.

We will never squash bullying and you're right, it's not a realistic goal. But damage that bullying can cause is rarely addressed, even when bullying is blatantly taking place.

Also, speaking on my behalf only, the last thing I wanted when I was at my lowest was pity or making others feel bad.

Strangely enough, we seem to be on the same frequency, just interpreting it differently. Where you believe the person who's suicidal is thinking selfish thoughts, thinking that they will be getting back at their offenders in some macabre way, I think the person who is at his lowest (where I was) is not thinking about getting back at others.
They are thinking of themselves, though not in the same sense you think, in fact, again going by my case, they are thinking about how much they affect others.

They are thinking of how weak they are to succumb to the pressures most people overcome.

They are thinking of how much of a drain they must be to those around them.

They are thinking of how a big a whimp they are for being unable to stand up for themselves.

They are thinking how pathetic they are for thinking these thoughts.

What happens if I'm also apart of a persecuted minority? Say I was gay, or maybe I'm part of a hot topic cool-to-hate religion?

Then someone at school or at home or at work etc. reaffirms these thougts and the spiral of self loathing continues. Bitterness might stem from bullying, but suicide stems from far more sources then just bullying.

Addressing all the sources of mental illness is not practical, but disregarding the very real damage these sources cause is just foolish and callous.
 

Rainboq

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Susan Arendt said:
TomLikesGuitar said:
Why do I feel like all the anti-bullying crusaders were never bullied?

I was bullied to a pretty substantial degree, and it made me a better person. My parents got a divorce when I was young and it taught me about life. I was emotionally stable enough to handle it, and this kid was NOT.
Good for you. I was bullied to the point of wanting to kill myself because I couldn't bear the thought of life being an unending stream of unhappiness and loneliness. The only reason - literally, the only reason I'm here today - is because someone at school told me that if you kill yourself your family has to clean it up and I believed them. If you made it through bullying with flying colors, good for you. Appreciate your good fortune instead of looking down on those who weren't as lucky.
I think the Escapist community should send that person a giant box of something for keeping such a fantastic editor and written alive.

OT: I've been bullied a lot, to put it lightly. I've been bullied by peers, co-workers and I still get bullied by my family for a wide variety if reasons. I've contemplated killing myself more times than I care to mention and I've been at the moment of following through with at least a dozen times throughout the course of my life. And you know what? I'm happy I didn't do it, I'm glad that I thought of all the people that would suffer if I hung myself and knew that I under no circumstances wanted to hurt anyone but myself. I'm happy because I found friends I can rely on and something to devote my life to, which this website is hugely responsable for, so thank you Escapist team, thank you so much.
 

Astoria

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smurf_you said:
Astoria said:
This doesn't sound right to me. How did the kid even know how to kill himself like this? I know when I was really upset when I was 7 the only thought in my head was to run away, not to kill myself. Someone's planted the idea in his head to do this, it's not the sort of thinking 7 year olds have.
Um I dunno... as an example, I started cutting myself at around that age (from a multitude of reasons I won't go into here) and I can tell you no one every put the ideas in my head.... I just had the idea and started doing it
It's not a natural responce to depression though. You probably don't remember but you would have seen or heard about it somewhere, even if it was just from a movie you saw 5 seconds of. A natural fight or flight responce is something like becoming a bully himself or like I said running away. Although, now that I think about it, that could have been his way of 'running away' as like others have said kids don't fully understand what dying means.
 

renegade7

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ugggh...inb4 some conservative whacko on the news says 'HE COMMITED SOOSIDE CUZ THE LIBRULS MADE HIM CATCH TEH GAY!'

But wow, that is messed up o.0
 

WanderingFool

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Daystar Clarion said:
Inb4 lost faith in humanity.

Parents failed as parents and the system set in place to protect her also failed. She paid for the incompetence of others.

It's quite sad.
Well, there isnt really anything else to say than this...
 

katsumoto03

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I'm reading posts from a lot of people who suspect foul play and can't imagine a seven-year-old doing this.

Believe me, it's more than possible for a seven-year-old to be put in a place where they feel that death is the only way out. It doesn't come completely from the events that are going on in their life.

When you're at that age you have so much to learn about how people work, how social groups are structured and even how your own emotions work. If you are being bullied, you will likely develop serious self confidence issues. And if you have issues with depression (as I am certain that this kid did), it can be a deadly combination.

Lagao said:
I chuckled a bit, then read, and laughed.

Why? It amazes me how low people will sink instead of standing up for themselves.
Wow, you're really tough bro. You're totally right though. This kid just needed to learn how to stand up for himself and everything would've worked out awesome. /sarcasm

Now, I'm all but certain that everything you know about how children deal with each other comes from 80's movies. Get out of here with your idiotic facade of coldness. You're not fooling anyone, and it only makes you look pathetic.
 

katsumoto03

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viranimus said:
Of course it is a tragic thing, but beyond the tragedy it has more to do with this over sensitized to bullying bullshit that helped cause this. At 7 years old you have no concept of what a miserable life is.
Children are far more intelligent than we give them credit for. Would you argue that a child who is forced to pick up a rifle and join an army, barely getting enough food to survive has no concept of a miserable life? I realize this is an extreme example, but I doubt you could make a solid case suggesting that they don't understand that their situation is completely shit.

I have a feeling that someone might say something along the lines of, "Well that's the only world they know. They have no idea what life is like for someone in a first world nation." That's an irrelevant point. They still realize that their current situation in life is causing them constant pain, anguish and misery. Even if they have no concept of how good life is elsewhere, they can still imagine a world without the pain they feel. To some extent at least.

Even if you agree with me with regards to that extreme example, you probably think it's completely different for a child living in, say, America. I have to ask what the difference is. If you are a child who is being bullied and harassed by a huge portion of their fellow students, you still feel pain and misery. You have a feeling that your situation is complete shit and you want to escape it.

If you constantly have the feeling that everyone hates you and are being told that you are nothing but a piece of shit, there's a chance that you'll start to believe it. I don't give a shit how old you are, that's misery.

You barely understand what life is at 7. But if you see your role models on TV who are all those 15-25 somethings doing PSAs about all the horrors they endured from bullying and look around your house and school and things look to be progressing that way, I think it prolly could influence someone impressionable to project a thought of how hopeless the future is going to be. I cannot help but to wonder if that did not play some sort of role in this.
If a child is hearing someone talk about their miserable experiences and is thinking, 'that sounds exactly like what I'm going through", then they are evidently in a similar situation. I don't really understand your point here. I really, really doubt that this has as much of an effect on young people as you seem to think it does.


This touchy feely approach does not work. As long as humans exist, Bullying WILL exist. There is no amount of public service, no amount of raising awareness, no amount of anything short of the species evolving into entities of light and energy is ever going to make it go away
This "touchy-feely" approach isn't to show the bullies the light. It's to help the victims get through their schooling without doing something as drastic as suicide.

and you have to make a choice in this existence either you are going to let the things that happen to you define you as a person, or your going to define what things happen to you as a person.
Like it or not, the things that happen to you (especially as a kid) will define who you become to an extent. And what do you mean by "you're going to define what things happen to you as a person"? You're suggesting that you can just choose what happens to you? That's not even something you can debate. That's flat out false. You can't control a great portion of the things that will happen to you. And I'd even go as far as to say that you can't change any of the things that will end up actually shaping you as a person.



Its so wearisome seeing this attempt to stop it from happening when its a fundamental part of our society.
This is a pretty shitty defense. Over the course of human history, many atrocities were a huge part of our societies. (Racism, war and hatred of any kind, really.)


Trying to get rid of it is like asking humanity to cut its own arm off. Even if it wanted to, its not really going to be able to do it.
This is a strange simile. A person is able to cut their own arm off. But whatever.


This whole naive concept of trying to stamp it out is the wrong way to go because it will never go away.
While I do agree with you on this, I think it's a sad fact.

You need to present it to a child, teach them of its existence, then teach them how to deal with it instead of blindly letting nature take its course. You empower the child to defend against it, you dont both perpetuate and foster the hopeless nature of bullying by acting like its a temporary affliction to overcome.
I agree, this is the proper course of action to help people avoid tragic stories like this one.


Stop teaching children that they can be anything they want to be and that they are special and unique lives and start explaining the real life problems their future will bring them and prepare them long in advance.
The purpose of telling children that they can be anything they want is to teach them how to have a goal. It imbues them with confidence. Children are not rational, nor pragmatic beings. They need to use obvious and colourful metaphors to help understand concepts. I'm not saying they're stupid, or unintelligent or anything like that. They simply have a different way of thinking than adults do.
 

viranimus

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katsumoto03 said:
Snipped a lot of valid points
Stop teaching children that they can be anything they want to be and that they are special and unique lives and start explaining the real life problems their future will bring them and prepare them long in advance.
The purpose of telling children that they can be anything they want is to teach them how to have a goal. It imbues them with confidence. Children are not rational, nor pragmatic beings. They need to use obvious and colourful metaphors to help understand concepts. I'm not saying they're stupid, or unintelligent or anything like that. They simply have a different way of thinking than adults do.
Heres where I have an issue. We see exactly what happens when you raise children on this "everyone is special" dogma. It raises children into adults who are consistently let down with their lives because they come to realize their limitations in life. So all that does is specifically creates a point of lifelong disappointment when they realize not only that they arent going to be a rockstar cowboy on the moon, They wont even be more than a fry cook, waitress, telemarketer, door to door salesman, etc. While it is important to give children goals, its also important to take responsibility and understand the potential impacts of what your actions on a child will manifest in later. You obviously cannot predict everything, but it was pretty damned easy to see that telling all kids that they ALL had this potential to be whatever they wanted to be was nothing more of a Easter bunnian level fabrication. Coddling children is detrimental to their development. Instilling them with unjustified confidence only ends in regret and loathing and it has been proven time and time again historically.

But Good post. Gives me things to consider. Cant say I fully disagree but yes you bring up some both valid and interesting points which are worth more in depth and better consideration.
 

katsumoto03

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viranimus said:
katsumoto03 said:
Snipped a lot of valid points
Stop teaching children that they can be anything they want to be and that they are special and unique lives and start explaining the real life problems their future will bring them and prepare them long in advance.
The purpose of telling children that they can be anything they want is to teach them how to have a goal. It imbues them with confidence. Children are not rational, nor pragmatic beings. They need to use obvious and colourful metaphors to help understand concepts. I'm not saying they're stupid, or unintelligent or anything like that. They simply have a different way of thinking than adults do.
Heres where I have an issue. We see exactly what happens when you raise children on this "everyone is special" dogma. It raises children into adults who are consistently let down with their lives because they come to realize their limitations in life. So all that does is specifically creates a point of lifelong disappointment when they realize not only that they arent going to be a rockstar cowboy on the moon, They wont even be more than a fry cook, waitress, telemarketer, door to door salesman, etc. While it is important to give children goals, its also important to take responsibility and understand the potential impacts of what your actions on a child will manifest in later. You obviously cannot predict everything, but it was pretty damned easy to see that telling all kids that they ALL had this potential to be whatever they wanted to be was nothing more of a Easter bunnian level fabrication. Coddling children is detrimental to their development. Instilling them with unjustified confidence only ends in regret and loathing and it has been proven time and time again historically.

But Good post. Gives me things to consider. Cant say I fully disagree but yes you bring up some both valid and interesting points which are worth more in depth and better consideration.
I see what you mean. I think that you really shouldn't tell a kid that they can be anything beyond their elementary school years. But when they're really young I personally think it'll help.

Probably the best thing to do is not to tell them that they can be whatever they want, but that they should try.
 

Mikeyfell

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Grey Day for Elcia said:
Mikeyfell said:
I'll never understand suicide as a result of bullying.

I mean when you have a tangible, physical reason for your depression (Like a person who's bullying you) and you're desperate enough to take a life.

Kill the bully!
Take the fucking option that might make your life (and other people's lives) better.
Because you know that bully's just going to bully somebody else now.

It's a terrible thing when someone's more willing to kill them self than doing something that might have a positive effect on their life.
That's not how you see the situation when you are pathologically bullied. When you are belittled and pushed around by someone with power over you (be it a husband, a wife, a boss, a parent, a schoolmate, etc.) all day, every day, you begin to believe them when they tell you that you're worthless and weak. A battered woman said of abuse: "If someone tells you you're ugly and dumb for long enough, you start to believe it."

If they're bigger, more powerful or more important than you, or even if you think they are, you feel minuscule and powerless. You've tried telling others and seeking help, but it doesn't stop. You've nowhere to run or believe you've nowhere to run. You believe they're better than you, that no one will care if they beat you. You feel alone, isolated and unimportant.

That's what bullying does. It turns the victim into their own biggest enemy.

People don't kill themselves to escape bullies. They commit suicide to escape themselves.

Source: someone who attempted suicide
That's the part I don't understand though.
That someone can actually be belittled into overriding their fight or flight instinct.

I know that that's what's happening, I just don't understand it.

I was bullied, a lot.
I just ignored it until I got stabbed by the bully, then I fought back. And never got bullied again by that guy.
 

A.A.K

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Her suffering will teach others.
It's unnecessary, but hopefully this will play part in getting people to pay attention to what's broken around her - whatever caused her to take her life.
 

Lunatic High

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Events like this are hard to even really take measure of, being able to make that decision at that age says to me that the kid likely would have been very intelligent when he grew up. What a goddamn waste.
 

Zack Alklazaris

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I look back and remembering wanting to kill myself at 11 and even then I didn't know what it was called I just wanted to do.

To want death at 7, thats just beyond horrible.
How much longer is this shit going to continue.
 

Stu35

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Jonluw said:
We really need to start treating bullying as more of a serious issue in schools.
I agree. Kids today are way too coddled by anti-bullying campaigns - we need to get some big, nasty bullies in every school to seriously teach children how to become interesting adults.


... (I'm aware this probably isn't the thread to be joking in, but I'm in that sorta mood today).

Seriously though, bullying is wrong.


chadachada123 said:
Hell, even the animals were probably thought of by the kids as being "in a better place now" or something.
I never bought into that bullshit as a child. Cried for weeks when my pet budgie died, had some choice words for my nana when she tried to console me with her religious hocus-pocus 'in a better place' nonsense. That swiftly got 'heartbreak over losing my best, and importantly, most capable of flight, friend' a partner in the form of 'getting the shit kicked out of me by my dad'.

Annnnyway... Not entirely sure what my point is here, just a story I've been reminded of from my childhood. Back on topic:

7 year old committing suicide is something that I'm genuinely struggling to comprehend. It's the first time I've been rattled by something I've read in the news... Probably ever. (I also struggle to comprehend things like Parents who burn their children to death, but I have very little faith in humanity, so that doesn't really bother me).

I guess if anything, this incident removes one more brick in the wall that is 'children are innocent' in my eyes. With every passing year they seem to mature earlier and earlier - even into the more horrifying aspects of adulthood.


[post edited to remove some content likely to offend]