Okay, this topic cuts close to both of us, and I think some wires were crossed along the way. I never said (or meant to at the very least) that the way to stop suicide is to stop bullying. Bullying, as far as I'm concerned, isn't the only contributor to suicidal tendencies. But I can assure you, the lack of a safety net for those been bullied doesn't help.TomLikesGuitar said:I'm not looking down on anyone. All I'm saying is if you are considering suicide because of childhood bullying, it's because you're kind of a soft person. Being soft will get you nowhere in life, and if you honestly ONLY didn't kill yourself because you didn't want your parents to clean it up, you had/have a serious problem that needs to be addressed.Susan Arendt said:Good for you. I was bullied to the point of wanting to kill myself because I couldn't bear the thought of life being an unending stream of unhappiness and loneliness. The only reason - literally, the only reason I'm here today - is because someone at school told me that if you kill yourself your family has to clean it up and I believed them. If you made it through bullying with flying colors, good for you. Appreciate your good fortune instead of looking down on those who weren't as lucky.TomLikesGuitar said:Why do I feel like all the anti-bullying crusaders were never bullied?
I was bullied to a pretty substantial degree, and it made me a better person. My parents got a divorce when I was young and it taught me about life. I was emotionally stable enough to handle it, and this kid was NOT.
Anyone who has studied psychology will tell you that it is NEVER normal to seriously consider taking your life, and if you have you NEED to get help.
Now, there are laws in place today (in America at least) that weren't in place just 40 years ago as far as abuse in school. My dad went to school in Newark in the 60's and bullying is NOTHING today compared to what it was back then. Yet, today, bullying is more of an issue. There's MUCH less physical bullying and, hell, there's probably more bullying online than in real life, but STILL kids are taking it to these drastic measures.
I was always a smaller kid, and I got picked on a lot (They called me "stick boy" lol) and I got my ass kicked a few times. The first time it happened, I told my dad, and he told me that it would end when I stopped letting it happen. Jesus Christ did I try so hard to not let it happen. I fought back and would get beat harder. I tried to be friends, and was ridiculed for it. But one day in junior year of high school, it just stopped. I felt amazing because I never gave up, and was a much bigger, more confident person as a result.
Now while your milage may vary, I know for a fact that a lot of these new "cyber-bullied" kids don't have it nearly as rough as I had it, but they are still going as far as killing themselves. The problem has to lie somewhere that hasn't been explored yet.
Maybe it's not a problem with bullying, but it's a problem with the fact that we are making our kids a little too soft by trying to protect them from everything and not teaching them to stand up for themselves like my dad's parents did. And like my dad did.
I'm NOT saying that's an absolute truth. But it makes a lot more sense than that the kids today are just becoming soft for no reason.
Of course I've thought of suicide. It's ALWAYS a choice. It's ALWAYS the easy choice. It ALWAYS has and always will be the easy choice. The thing is that a strong person will ALWAYS come to the conclusion that suicide is not a viable solution and will fight to fix the problem. A weak person will conclude that suicide is in fact the best solution, and that person needs help. We instinctively know that suicide is the worst way out, but the fact that so many people feel pity for suicide cases makes it almost an alluring concept.Ragsnstitches said:Okay, let's cut out the filler and rhetoric here...
Have you ever had a thought of suicide? Have you ever come to a point where that felt like a choice? Because what's apparent here is that you seem to think people who make this choice do it out of lazyness or ignorance, rather then desperation. You seem to discount the notion that it may even have an underlying medical conditioned... YES people can be depressed for reasons other then external stimuli.
I VERY VERY HIGHLY DOUBT THAT ANYONE WHO COMMITS SUICIDE IS THINKING ANYTHING OTHER THAN "That'll show 'em." OR "They'll be sorry when I'm gone."
If we looked at suicide with a less pitying light, maybe less people would seriously consider it.
I literally just said it could have been a medical condition in the last post. I hate to say this again, but semantics plays a huge part here. If the fault lies with a disease the person has, does the fault also not lie with the person? It's clear Dahmer had some sort of mental disease, so is it not his FAULT that he killed those people?
The answer does not exist here, and no one should truly be faulted in this freak accident (as I said before).
Trust me, others DO have it worse. I don't care if this kid was beaten daily (which I highly doubt), others DO have it worseAlso, the argument that others MIGHT have it worse,
And I think all of this pandering to children and forcing them to accept everyone is a part of the reason why bullying has evolved.when you yourself said you just don't know what led to this kids suicide, just doesn't sit well with me. You decide to settle on something mundane and insignificant as an example, something that grossly underestimates the problems that lead to suicide, then arrogantly claim that others have it worse. Blanket Statement much? Of course others have it worse, but does that make the problems less significant for that individual? There isn't a metric system to judge the severity of a person mental health nor is there a value system to what influence causes what damage to an individual.
Everyone has different thresholds. Willpower is not evenly distributed among communities. We are not living in an age in the west where where sick babies are left to die or plague victims are mercifully executed. We advocate helping others, like people born with mental/physical defects, people who struggle with social norms shouldn't be abandoned...
Sorry boss, but it sounds like you are or have been a very troubled person. While I feel for you, I can't help but blame you for your problems. I can't help but think that if you were a more weathered person you might not be this way.Story
I can't relate to a lot of people, I've lived in multiple different countries, and I don't look at friendships or family as meaningfully as others do. When I was in Africa, I saw children quite literally starving to death. I saw children whose parent's had recently died get dragged away to orphanages. Now, in America, I look at a kid who fucking hangs himself over mommy and daddy issues and getting a little beaten up in school and, SORRY, but I can't help but blame the child.
You might be right in a sense though. My anger is somewhat blinding. It is the way the society raises these kids that truly makes them so susceptible to the idea of suicide and it really is unfair to blame them for the way they were raised, but the problem is NOT that bullying needs to stop (it won't).
I strongly believe the problem is that as we evolve as a society into this happy-go-lucky ball of acceptance, we are forgetting how to teach the youth how to defend themselves against hate.
I love America, and I believe people are truly the same wherever you go, but America is one of, if not THE worst offender of super ultra political correct bullshit.
So sure, I try to be nice to everyone I meet until they give me a reason to do otherwise. Most sane people do. But the things I've seen and done show me that I should ALWAYS be prepared for the worst. There are things far worse than bullying and divorce in this world, and if you can't handle that then you really have a lot in store for you.
EDIT:I agree, but in a different way... see above.RazadaMk2 said:I see this childs death as a failing of society as a whole.
We will never squash bullying and you're right, it's not a realistic goal. But damage that bullying can cause is rarely addressed, even when bullying is blatantly taking place.
Also, speaking on my behalf only, the last thing I wanted when I was at my lowest was pity or making others feel bad.
Strangely enough, we seem to be on the same frequency, just interpreting it differently. Where you believe the person who's suicidal is thinking selfish thoughts, thinking that they will be getting back at their offenders in some macabre way, I think the person who is at his lowest (where I was) is not thinking about getting back at others.
They are thinking of themselves, though not in the same sense you think, in fact, again going by my case, they are thinking about how much they affect others.
They are thinking of how weak they are to succumb to the pressures most people overcome.
They are thinking of how much of a drain they must be to those around them.
They are thinking of how a big a whimp they are for being unable to stand up for themselves.
They are thinking how pathetic they are for thinking these thoughts.
What happens if I'm also apart of a persecuted minority? Say I was gay, or maybe I'm part of a hot topic cool-to-hate religion?
Then someone at school or at home or at work etc. reaffirms these thougts and the spiral of self loathing continues. Bitterness might stem from bullying, but suicide stems from far more sources then just bullying.
Addressing all the sources of mental illness is not practical, but disregarding the very real damage these sources cause is just foolish and callous.