Star Wars: TOR Designer Explains BioWare's Death Stance

[Tom Goldman]

Star Wars: TOR Designer Explains BioWare's Death Stance

Death in Star Wars: The Old Republic won't make players take a red lightsaber to their computers.

Certain MMOs like the upcoming Star Wars: The Old Republic [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/reviews/previews/8591-Preview-Watch-Your-Back-in-Salem] will not be one of those. Old Republic combat designer Damion Schubert recently took to the BioWare forums to explain why the game won't have an overly harsh death penalty, but said it won't be a "cakewalk" either.

In a forum topic asking BioWare to make death "mean something" in The Old Republic, Schubert wrote that he agrees death should have a "sting." However, the sting should be more like that of a bumblebee, than that of a box jellyfish [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Box_jellyfish].

BioWare's philosophy for The Old Republic is that harsh death penalties can ruin a game. They can lead to players that only grind through the game on weaker enemies, and that don't take risks on new character builds. They can make it tough for newer players to learn a game's ins and outs, with experienced players never willing to group with them for fear of losing to a boss. If an MMO chooses to make equipment vulnerable after a death, you might as well never give that equipment out, because Schubert doesn't think most players would risk bringing it along.

He feels a manageable death penalty also allows designers to make encounters more challenging, because players can try over and over without getting frustrated. Well, without getting too frustrated anyway.

Schubert emphasizes that BioWare does not want The Old Republic to be soft on those that die, but isn't planning to remove a limb every time a player accidentally walks backwards into a Sarlaac pit. I'm the type of gamer that can appreciate both kinds of systems, and with the mainstream appeal that Old Republic will likely have, I think it's smart to implement a death system into the MMO that won't have players turning to the dark side out of anger. I'm expecting something similar to World of Warcraft [http://www.amazon.com/World-Warcraft-Battle-Chest-Mac/dp/B000H96C9M/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1296329079&sr=8-2] where players simply have to get back to their corpses, but perhaps molded into a more Star Wars-like system.

Source: VG247 [http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=5289463#edit5289463]

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[StriderShinryu]

I've always felt that often the trek back to your place of death to try again really is punishment enough. Add some extra item degradation due to the death in top of that and you don't really need anything extra.

I hate when an MMO makes you essentially useless for 10 minutes after a death. In that case, I'll often just log out and not bother playing at all... which I suppose fits fine with the MO of your average subscription based MMO.

 

[Tirnor]

This is yet another reason I'll be unlikely to play it.

For a bit of context, I was one of those who loved the idea of perma-death for Jedi in SWG, and greatly preferred the pre-NGE version of the same game.

For when you ran into a certain class it MEANT something. It meant that Doctors had put their time in making medicines, healing wounds, and perhaps risking their lives becoming PVP flagged in a hospital.. It meant that Jedi were either badass or stealthy enough to live long enough to level...

But yes, I agree if you are looking for "mainstream appeal" you want it to be as easy as possible to progress.. with all but guaranteed rewards (I hesitate to use that word... wages would be more appropriate) and lots of dropping lewts or quest items.

*sigh* Never mind... if you need me, I'll be over here yelling at kids to get off my lawn.

- Tir

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Disagree, but I'm used to the Ranger runs in Everquest.

I dunno, putting in a weak death penalty seems to get players in the Statistics frame of mind, rather than actually being scared of things. One hit deaths shouldn't be too harsh but if you're walking through the middle of the Tattooine desert and you stumble upon a Sarlaac, you should be crushed for just being dense.

/Calvin's_Father "It builds character"

and greatly preferred the pre-NGE version of the same game.

I think everyone bar SOE preferred pre-NGE.

 

[Pandaman1911]

I think the death penalty should be "You load the last place you saved at." This way, the punishment for failure was entirely on you. Have to go back to the start of the level? Well that's because your dumb ass forgot to save.
Unless of course there's no manual saving in this. In which case fuck that.

 

[Exterminas]

Sooo many shiny words and not a single definate statement in them. Great example of Dev-Talk, which more and more resembles politician-talk.

 

[Jumwa]

A stiff death penalty is a quick way to ensure I wont even consider your game.

I am by no means a newcomer to MMOs, I've played many of them continuously without break for five years now at least. I rarely if ever die. However, when I do die, it's a quick way to dissolve my interest in playing and cause me to go fire up another game.

For me, games are about fun and escapism, not about frustration. Frustrate me and you lose my hold on your product. WoW's death penalty is already tedious enough. Nothing breaks my mojo like doing a dungeon run then having to take 10-15 minutes to recoup after a wipe thanks to the long run back to our corpses, making our way back through the cleared area of the dungeons, then rebuffing and preparing.

Some people might feel they need video games to provide them with a sense of real accomplishment, and therefore want stiff penalties, frustration and annoyance, but I'm not one of them. I have real life to throw my commitments to, I game for an escape from such things.

Seeing as the title of the website is "The Escapist", I'm surprised it seems a minority view. Perhaps it's just a case of people thumping their chests to proclaim their superiority in the face of others less willing to suffer for a game, or perhaps masochism is more popular than I realize. Or perhaps, even, more people come searching for meaning and value in their life in a virtual environment. I don't know.

 

[Maddhaus]

While I certainly understand the desire of some for harsher "death penalties", I prefer the type of approach being suggested by SW:TOR's designers, if for no other reason than death in MMOs can often occur through no fault of the player.

Let's face it - while internet speeds have improved vastly over recent years and connectivity in general has become more robust, the fact remains that lag spikes and other issues can easily cause character deaths - especially in raid/boss encounters that require precision and immediate reaction to prevailing circumstances.

Frankly, I've never quite agreed with the idea that the player needs to be somehow 'punished' for the death of a character. Yes, death should carry a penalty lest it become even more meaningless than the temporary (or even permanent) death of a digital creation already is; however, going overboard and kicking the player in the figurative bahoogies because a lag spike prevented them from getting out of the insta-kill fire zone fast enough doesn't sound like very much fun from the player's perspective.

 

[Xan Krieger]

Face of Mankind did death in a good way. You didn't lose weapons and armor unless they were in your inventory. Things that were in your inventory like ammo and medpacks would be left in a sack on the ground. Also you had a number of clones, 10 for non-paying people and up to 200 for people with premium accounts. If you lost a clone you could buy another for 350 in game credits (which were easy to earn) or 250 if you belonged to a specific faction.

 

[Pandaman1911]

MMOs don't have saving.

Personally I like both ideas. But Bioware does have a point. We want to encourage play, not discourage it.

Whoops, haha. An MMO? Right then... I'm an idiot, sorry!

 

[TerranReaper]

To be honest, I kinda liked the concept of a very harsh death ala EVE Online, it made you more cautious on the decisions you made and the risks that you make by doing something, also made sure you had to invest into a clone and update it as time progresses. I can understand having manageable death penalty though, not a lot of people are too willing to restart if some accident was to happen.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

Unless of course there's no manual saving in this. In which case fuck that.

It being an MMO, I find a save/load function unlikely. Just sayin'.

I am in favor of this. Lack of skill isn't the only thing that can lead to death in an online game. A burst of lag, complete loss of Internet connection, a sudden emergency, an itchy foot, an unexpected "call of nature", a computer issue- any of these can lead to losing an encounter in an MMO. Destroying hours, days, or even weeks of progress because of something that could be entirely out of the player's hands just doesn't sit well with me.

 

[Slycne]

For me, games are about fun and escapism, not about frustration.

An all too often misrepresented stance submitting the "fact" that challenge and fun are on opposite end of the spectrum for everyone. For many people the challenge is the fun, where as I suspect you find the fun in the experience or story as a whole.

And not directly related to your comments, one reason you rarely see MMOs truly remove their death penalties is that it provides the mechanic for a very important economy balancing - money sinks. In order to help fight inflation, devs need to remove money from the players. This is often done by incorporating item destruction or durability when the player dies.

 

[Scytail]

I hate when an MMO makes you essentially useless for 10 minutes after a death. In that case, I'll often just log out and not bother playing at all... which I suppose fits fine with the MO of your average subscription based MMO.

wow, you poor baby. there should be some extra penalty for respawning at the graveyard. its taking the easy way back to life instead of trecking back to your body.