Morality Matters
Our panel welcomes a new member and turns its eye to the question of morality.
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Our panel welcomes a new member and turns its eye to the question of morality.
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Morality Matters
- Thread starter Extra Consideration
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Oh God... I remember that part in Chrono Trigger when I was put on trial... Man was I shocked by that. I was so surprised, I actually restarted the game to avoid being a jerk the next time around.
The comment about not caring about digital people kind of puts me in mind of Lunar: Silver Star Story Complete. I remember watching the "Making of" disc that came with the game, and one of the developers said that in the original game, when the hero leaves his hometown, he parts with Luna, the heroine. In Silver Star Story Complete, the Playstation remake, Luna instead stays with the party throughout the first quarter of the game, because the developers though that gave you a much better chance to connect with and understand her, so you'd actually CARE about her in the rest of the story. Smart move. No morality choices in Lunar, obviously, but it strikes me that if more developers put that kind of thought into their story structure, we'd have games that had much more emotional stories so that "morality" plays DID have an impact on us.
I recently played Vampire: The Masquerade Bloodlines, and that introduced me to an interesting thought. Mechanics other than how people react to you can be tied into morality too. The player character in this game is a vampire (go figure) and as one of the bloodthirsty damned, one HAS to drink blood and do some other morally questionable tasks in order to keep the mortals in the dark about the existence of you and your ilk. However, the more of a dick you are without filling up your karma meter with life-saving and other such heroics, the greater the chance of your dark side taking over, causing you to feed and kill indiscriminately and wresting control from you, the player, until someone comes to put you, the player character, down. Also, if you're playing a Malkavian, the insane clan of vampires, your insanity manifests itself (in various hilarious ways) more often the more of a dick you are.
I know the two-dimensionality of the morality meter isn't subverted by these tactics, but it sure adds more depth to the choice between being a dick and being a good person.
I know the two-dimensionality of the morality meter isn't subverted by these tactics, but it sure adds more depth to the choice between being a dick and being a good person.
The Chrono Trigger mention is quite out of left field, but somehow passed the fences on this. When explaining to my friends that once I had gotten every ending in Chrono Trigger, that in any subsequent play-through I just ignored getting all of the optional characters, and always had a team of Marle, Ayla, and Lucca. I never revived Chrono, I never repaired Robo, I never helped Glenn with his soulsearching quest for a raison d'etre, and I definitely never picked up that evil Magus fool. Of course, when I told my friends this, they were like "YOU MONSTER! HOW COULD YOU NOT HELP ROBO!" This is meta-morality, for sure, but an interesting note.
On the subject of Morality systems, though, is that especially in newer games they have made it very, very obvious what choice does what. Dragon Age 2 is a good example of this. A halo and angel wings is good and pure, a green leaf is peaceful, a purple laughing face is sarcastic/unbiased, and a red gavel is warmongering. (I probably missed something.)
The reason they did this was obvious, because people were complaining that when they picked what they thought to be the 'evil' choice, it ended up being more good than evil. But isn't that the point? To pick what your character would do, not necessarily "The Evil Choice."
On the subject of Morality systems, though, is that especially in newer games they have made it very, very obvious what choice does what. Dragon Age 2 is a good example of this. A halo and angel wings is good and pure, a green leaf is peaceful, a purple laughing face is sarcastic/unbiased, and a red gavel is warmongering. (I probably missed something.)
The reason they did this was obvious, because people were complaining that when they picked what they thought to be the 'evil' choice, it ended up being more good than evil. But isn't that the point? To pick what your character would do, not necessarily "The Evil Choice."
Totally agreed on Chrono Trigger. I had the same pang of guilt after getting to that trial. I've been so used to stealing anything not nailed down in RPGs, that I was surprised to actually be called out on it. Felt ahead of its time almost.
I don't mind morality systems because worst case scenario? It's just a bar with gameplay effects (unlockable abilities, stats, appearance, etc.). I think it's great when games can hit you with a real dilemma, but gamers seem to be pretty savvy, so at some point they have to accept that everything is happening within a closed system created by programmers. The best devs can do is avoid making the choices too shallow or transparent and we as gamers have to suspend our disbelief a little to enjoy the choices within the scope of the experience.
And I have to disagree with Yahtzee that morality systems block off content. That's looking at it the wrong way because there is basically no way for a moral choice system to overcome that. If choices are going to have meaning, then different things need to happen based on those choices. Inevitably something will have to lay unseen until a subsequent playthrough.
I don't mind morality systems because worst case scenario? It's just a bar with gameplay effects (unlockable abilities, stats, appearance, etc.). I think it's great when games can hit you with a real dilemma, but gamers seem to be pretty savvy, so at some point they have to accept that everything is happening within a closed system created by programmers. The best devs can do is avoid making the choices too shallow or transparent and we as gamers have to suspend our disbelief a little to enjoy the choices within the scope of the experience.
And I have to disagree with Yahtzee that morality systems block off content. That's looking at it the wrong way because there is basically no way for a moral choice system to overcome that. If choices are going to have meaning, then different things need to happen based on those choices. Inevitably something will have to lay unseen until a subsequent playthrough.
The Elder Scrolls: Daggerfall attempted to apply a 'reputation' score for a vast list of individuals, factions and populations that shifted depending on your actions. Of course, Daggerfall attempted a lot that wasn't properly applied...
Don't much appreciate black & white morality. Some ambiguous choices would be nice.
Don't much appreciate black & white morality. Some ambiguous choices would be nice.
When I played Fallout 3, and you get to that level where you have to rescue your dad from the German professor in the VR world, at the end you get the choice between killing all the people in the world, sav the professor himself, in order to put them out of their misery (the professor is German, ergo he is a massive cock, as Germans can only be cocks). But doing so would leav the good professor alone in the world he had created, and while some might see that as justice, I really could not bring my self to doing that. WHile putting the inhabitants out of their misety would mean I got good karma, I could not bear the thought of the professor (he might have been a doctor, come to think of it) living in his VR world alone for all eternity. So yeah. Didn't really make a point. I guess fuck you, morality meters.
I actually remember that. It's based off of the morality system that was originally built into the tabletop RPG of the same name. People enjoyed itso much(aparrently) thatwhen the new system came out, it was added to all of the games.conflictofinterests said:
It is a unique take on Morality, at least in games, so I think it is worth bringing up. Why am I more upset that being a dick in Fable 3 unlocks more stuff than being a good guy? I kind of get it, but the way they do it is pretty weak.
Other than Chrono Trigger and Bloodlines, most of the morality workings in games seems pretty weak.
Well, I could rant a bit about the fact that morality is a social construct, and as such is purely imaginary. That it is entirely arbitrary, and therefore no system in a game will every encompass the accepted morals of more than a handful of people at once.
But since we are sticking with the IMHO opinion approach... I honestly don't believe I have a moral compass. I obey laws because I have no desire to endure the punishments imposed by society. Therefore every moral system I have ever played has felt tacked on and out of place. I play both sides just to see all the content, but don't feel guilty or wholesome for being "good" or "evil" in a game.
If you make a supporting character interesting enough, I will act in a moral or immoral way that matches to learn more about them, to draw out the depths of their storyline, but that's about all I find interesting about it. As far as I'm concerned, they can be done away with.
But since we are sticking with the IMHO opinion approach... I honestly don't believe I have a moral compass. I obey laws because I have no desire to endure the punishments imposed by society. Therefore every moral system I have ever played has felt tacked on and out of place. I play both sides just to see all the content, but don't feel guilty or wholesome for being "good" or "evil" in a game.
If you make a supporting character interesting enough, I will act in a moral or immoral way that matches to learn more about them, to draw out the depths of their storyline, but that's about all I find interesting about it. As far as I'm concerned, they can be done away with.
*reads part about new guy praising Chrono Trigger*Extra Consideration said:
You know, Mikey, even though you forgot the bread...
For now, I´d be glad if they could at least throw in a middle grey option into all that black and white. Sometimes I don´t want to be neither a hero nor an asshole, but just a bit mean.
You see, I wanted to let them free, I saw him as malevolent force who should be trapped in his world, but I honest to god couldn't figure it out how to activate the failsafe, I had to just do as he said and get out.Olofelefant said:
Yahtzee's mention of the guard in OpFor I can understand. It doesn't take me long to connect to a loveable comic-relief type character, and I'd hate to upset one of those guards...I can imagine his voice now...no...no, Jeff, I'm sorry! Forgive me Jeff! JEEEEEEEEEEEFF!
Truer words were never spoken.Olofelefant said:
OT: Adding morality to a game does get very tricky and can be a daunting task to the developers... And if the outcome is entirely different from one another, some players feel that they might of missed out on something and having to play the game again doing everything the same way up until the point of decisions can seem sort of boring... I don't know, that's just me, I like to finish my games in one go.
Most bad moral decision games boil down to good vs. evil, they don't give options that are all morally ambiguous. Infamous for example has you choose between saving your ex or about 7 doctors - are you kidding me?!
I quite like it when you're kept in the dark, so apparent good and bad options are reversed or you don't have all the facts and are forced into just going with your gut on a random choice...
I quite like it when you're kept in the dark, so apparent good and bad options are reversed or you don't have all the facts and are forced into just going with your gut on a random choice...
As someone who really does appreciate good morality systems in games, I'm in total agreement with Yahtzee's point about not caring about a game world and it's characters just because we're told to. This is, in retrospect, why I've never been a fan of the Fable games and yet I love Bioware's titles.
Fable is supposedly all about having your own adventure and growing your own character, but I've never really cared. Sorry, Mr. Molyneux, but repeatedly farting at someone doesn't make for engaging character relations. There's really no more depth or complexity than a Mario game.
Bioware titles, on the other hand, may not always have the most unique stories but the characters are so well written and the world designed with such care that developing a feeling of caring for the world and it's people just comes naturally. This is even more true with your dedicated companions.
As to this series in general though.. each installment is just too short. These are complex issues that none of the associated authors can even tackle in depth in their own dedicated features. Serving up a discussion on there topics in this format just feels half like you're cheating the subject and half like we're only getting a fraction of the real discussion.
Fable is supposedly all about having your own adventure and growing your own character, but I've never really cared. Sorry, Mr. Molyneux, but repeatedly farting at someone doesn't make for engaging character relations. There's really no more depth or complexity than a Mario game.
Bioware titles, on the other hand, may not always have the most unique stories but the characters are so well written and the world designed with such care that developing a feeling of caring for the world and it's people just comes naturally. This is even more true with your dedicated companions.
As to this series in general though.. each installment is just too short. These are complex issues that none of the associated authors can even tackle in depth in their own dedicated features. Serving up a discussion on there topics in this format just feels half like you're cheating the subject and half like we're only getting a fraction of the real discussion.
i've always thought the little text popping up saying "-2 good" or "+3 karma" or "you gained paragon" was a bit silly. I don't object to morlaity sytems but ones you can't see like what Mikey described at the end, are always going to be better. Seeing you're morallity move up and down pulls out of the games characters and casues you to metagame. Well normally i would help NPC little girl get her cat out of a treebut i need evil points for that skill set so i'm going to murder her instead.
That isn't morality, that a point system. And worse The evil stuff is usually better/more fun than the paragon stuff.
That isn't morality, that a point system. And worse The evil stuff is usually better/more fun than the paragon stuff.
That's a great point--meaning both it's fantastic the developers put that much thought into their game, and it's a solid example of how best to use morality in a game (or any story for that matter).Dora said:
In Silver Star Story Complete, they give you time to talk with the character; to learn about them and how they view the world, and to grow your own attachment to them.
As an obverse to the situation, Infamous's beginning comes to mind.
The intro to Infamous finds Cole on a rooftop with his friend Zeke. There is a quick tutorial on how to use your electricity powers, the two of you exchange one-liners, and then you're off on your first mission. Five minutes and one 'fill you in on the backstory' conversation later, you're given your first moral choice.
Do you give a crate of supplies to the city people, or do you keep it all for yourself?
Will you be selfless or selfish? Nice or dickish? GOOD or BAD.
It was the worst implementation of morality in a game. Ever. Five minutes into the game, you're asked to make an ethics choice for a character you've just met, by a character you HAVEN'T met, for citizens you really aren't ever going to care about anyway.
You guys should bring back Bob.
The moral choice system in Epic Mickey broke the deal for me. It's a perfect example for what Yahtzee was talking about how moral choice systems make you play the game twice so you can see the other half of the content. Also, quests would get locked even before I knew they existed. It was frustrating as hell so I had to quit it.
The moral choice system in Epic Mickey broke the deal for me. It's a perfect example for what Yahtzee was talking about how moral choice systems make you play the game twice so you can see the other half of the content. Also, quests would get locked even before I knew they existed. It was frustrating as hell so I had to quit it.
Frankly, I like how Elder Scrolls does morality. If I disagree with something on a moral basis from an in-character point of view, I don't do it, or I do it in a different way, or I stop the frakkers who are trying to do it. No silly black and white text options that painted my decision as good or evil.
The morality of my choices were defined by me, the character I had envisioned, and the world in which I played. There was no good/evil meter, but there was a famous/infamous rating, and that made sense at least. The world around me judged what I did, right or wrong, based on the impact of my deeds. Perhaps what I did was good, perhaps that sick freak planning to kill someone needed to be murdered himself, but the fact that people who witnessed my act and told about it not seeing it the same way as me still made sense.
Now, Morrowind and Oblivion were by no means perfect games, but I think they tackled morality better than any other game I can pull from my rear at the moment.
The morality of my choices were defined by me, the character I had envisioned, and the world in which I played. There was no good/evil meter, but there was a famous/infamous rating, and that made sense at least. The world around me judged what I did, right or wrong, based on the impact of my deeds. Perhaps what I did was good, perhaps that sick freak planning to kill someone needed to be murdered himself, but the fact that people who witnessed my act and told about it not seeing it the same way as me still made sense.
Now, Morrowind and Oblivion were by no means perfect games, but I think they tackled morality better than any other game I can pull from my rear at the moment.