Fable 3 Dev: Used Games Sales are "More Problematic" Than Piracy

[Andy Chalk]

Fable 3 Dev: Used Games Sales are "More Problematic" Than Piracy

Lionhead senior developer Mike West says that sales of preowned Xbox 360 games are actually a bigger problem than piracy on the PC.

Piracy on the PC is a problem. We all know this. What we didn't know, however, is that it's not as much of a problem as the legitimate trade in legally-owned product known as "pre-owned game sales." That's right, kids, carting the old crap that you're never again going to play down to the store so you can afford to buy the hot new EA Sports release does more damage to the industry than simply downloading it from some skeevy torrent site. Or something like that.

"Piracy these days on PC is probably less problematic than second-hand sales on the Xbox," West told Eurogamer [http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-05-17-lionhead-pre-owned-worse-than-pc-piracy]. "I've been working on PC games for many years and piracy is always a problem. There are a lot of honest people out there as well, and if they like your game they'll buy it."

But there will also always be those who insist on pirating games and technologically, he added, there's really nothing that can be done to stop them. Fortunately, West said that the success of Fable III [http://www.amazon.com/Fable-III-Xbox-360/dp/B002I0JGDM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1305747442&sr=8-1] on the Xbox 360 essentially insulates it from PC piracy and that any sales on the platform are basically just "a bonus."

"For us it's probably a no-lose even with piracy as it is," West said. "But, as I say, second-hand sales cost us more in the long-run than piracy these days."

Other developers have in the past equated used game sales with piracy but I think this is the first time I've ever heard someone say it's actually worse. I can sort of see where West is coming from; the 360 market is much larger than the PC and game trade-ins are not just legitimate but encouraged by many retailers, so dollar-for-dollar Lionhead and Microsoft may actually "lose more sales" to the pre-owned business than to piracy. But to say that it's "more problematic" than the flat-out-illegal act of piracy is an odd claim, especially since piracy has for years borne the brunt of the blame for the collapsing PC game industry. I'm honestly not sure what West is trying to say. Are pre-owned game sales really all that ruinous, or is piracy perhaps not quite as bad for the business as we're sometimes told?


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[Cpt Corallis]

Edit: completely ignore that, got an article i read on another site mixed up. x(

I agree with west, I feel the fact that used games are legitimate causes more problems than piracy.

 

[vrbtny]

Er.... okay. Are we purposely throwing wood onto the embers of a fire here? Or creating a new fire all together?

 

[JET1971]

I can see it being an issue when the game is still top price or even half priced and more potential customers buy a second hand copy for even less. then after a year potential customers wont buy a new copy at all. while for PC games if a potential customer wants it they have no real choice but to buy new if the game has multiplayer these days. pirates wouldnt buy it anyway so thats kinda a moot point for potential customers that i was talking about.

 

[Baresark]

Haha, they are sour because they don't know how to make a good game anymore. Boo hoo, all the mean people want to buy what's better for them, waaah waah. This flip flop game between used games and piracy is just getting old.

 

[Delusibeta]

Er.... okay. Are we purposely throwing wood onto the embers of a fire here? Or creating a new fire all together?

As I said when I posted about these comments [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.284829-Lionhead-Piracy-these-days-on-PC-is-probably-less-problematic-than-second-hand-sales-on-the-Xbox] earlier on (inb4 escapist, etc.), this is pretty blatant flamebait.

 

[Jumwa]

I can see his point. After all, the argument that a pirate would buy the game legitimately if they had no other option is dubious at best. However, someone who buys a used game probably only spent $5 less on a $60 game, if they couldn't have gotten it used, chances are good they likely would've bought the full priced copy.

However, the realistic solution is likely in just adjusting game prices more routinely, and not obstinately keeping a games price at the same fixed point for months and years on end long after the initial buzz around it has died.

 

[Traun]

Well...at last someone said it.
Hope we can all go digital soon, it would eliminate at least that issue.

 

[wooty]

Screw it, for this remark I'm now going to trade my copy of Fable 3 for LA Noire on Friday.

 

[Tom Hill]

This does seem to encourage illegalness but tbh if it's cheap and you get the whole game, ppl will buy second hand. I do.

Talk to the game distributors about this not the audience.

 

[Cartographer]

I can see his point. After all, the argument that a pirate would buy the game legitimately if they had no other option is dubious at best. However, someone who buys a used game probably only spent $5 less on a $60 game, if they couldn't have gotten it used, chances are good they likely would've bought the full priced copy.

However, the realistic solution is likely in just adjusting game prices more routinely, and not obstinately keeping a games price at the same fixed point for months and years on end long after the initial buzz around it has died.

Well, do consider that it is the retailer that the publishers are selling to, not the public, and used sales will probably have had an enormous affect on the number of games the retailers buy.

Lets assume 10 years ago a high street retailer would order 30,000 copies of the game to cover their national stores. They pay the publisher for 30,000 copies (and then mark it up to high street price) and sell it to you and me.

Now, the retailer knows they are only likely to sell 12,000 in the first month, and the remaining 18,000 will be used sales, months after release. They know they only really need to order 12,000, because the remaining sales will be 2nd, 3rd or 4th hand, the initial customers will have traded them in. They pay the publisher for 12,000 copies and sell them to you and me 3-4 times.

Sure I'm pulling numbers out of the air, but there is no reason for retailers to buy more stock than they can reasonably sell, and if they know they have a viable trade-in market, they certainly aren't going to order as many copies from the publishers as they would without the trade-ins.

 

[ccesarano]

I'm not a fan of the used games industry. Even used book sales don't see this much of an issue. You can have book stores that sell nothing but new books and still make a profit, whereas a games store can only do so if it sells used games. This is simultaneously part of the industry's problem ($5 retail markup is NOT going to generate revenue for the brick-and-mortar store) and part of the retail stores' lack of vision (why does Hot Topic have all the video game shirts instead of Game Stop? Or all that other merchandising that is marked out the whazoo?).

What is most ridiculous is the sheer racket of it. Is it really worth saving $5 to purchase an opened game whose disc and case are in questionable condition? Especially considering how poorly people treat their games BEFORE trading them in? Is it really worth getting $20 (on a new game) back? Think about it. You buy a new game for $60, GameStop profits $5. You sell the game back and GameStop gives you $20. That puts them at -$15. But then they sell it for $55, and make $40 profit (let's assume they're generous and give you $30 for a brand new game...then they make $30 profit anyway).

It's a scam and a sham. If I go to a used book store I'm only paying $1 or $2 for a book that originally cost $7-9. If you're going to sell me a used product it shouldn't cost a small 10% discount beneath the new product.

Of course, that the games industry relies 100% on the disc itself (or DLC) for their revenue when television and film rely on product placement and merchandising, well, our industry really needs to catch up.

 

[MajWound]

I don't know what they expect anyone to do about it. Ban selling and buying used games? Impossible. Convince people to only ever buy new games and never sell any old games? It's not going to happen. The used game trade is fantastic for the consumers (especially kids) who need to get that little bit of money back to buy more games. Okay, so anyone who has ever traded at GameStop knows that they shell out BULLSHIT money for your games. "What do you have there? A week-old COMPLETE Rock Band set? Eh, I'll give you $20 for it. You hated your brand-new copy of Mortal Kombat and want to sell it the very next day? I can't give you any money, but take this old cheeseburger I didn't get around to eating last week." But imagine if you couldn't recoup ANYTHING for your used game. You'd have to do something drastic like RECYCLING them, God help you.

And let's say you weren't that excited about Brink, but your friends are all playing together and they think you're a ****** for missing out (projecting WAY too hard by now). Do you honestly want to shell out $60 ($50 on Steam, heil to the PC gaming master race) for a game you had no intention of playing in the first place? Fuck no you aren't, but you may certainly run down to Play It Trade It at 4316 N High St, 43214 and snag it for a pittance indirectly from someone who hated it. All I'm saying is that the option is there, and it's better for the consumer.

However, if the game publishers ARE worried about this shit, there's always one action THEY could take. They could stop selling hard copies and go completely downloadable. But Jesus knows they're not going to make any significant effort. They'll just ***** at us.

 

[rembrandtqeinstein]

Used games are worse in every way. A pirate isn't in a store with money in his pocket, looking to spend it on a game.

The typical setup in gamestop is a customer brings a new game to the counter then the pimply faced clerk says "you can get a pre-owned copy for for $5 less!" and if you say you still want a new one the scrotbag says mockingly "don't you like saving money?" The first time one of the register monkeys did that was the last time I set foot in a gamestop.

Their whole business model is leeching money off developers/publishers at the point of sale.

When someone pirates a game, they don't take the money were could have potentially spent on that game and burn it, they don't bury it in the backyard. A downloaded copy doesn't magically make money appear.

But a used sale DOES directly transfer money from the publisher to the retailer.

 

[MasterV]

Here we go again. Used game sales are legal, piracy is illegal. The thing you have to do to stop people from doing both, if it bothers you so much mr mediocre developer, is to start making GOOD GAMES. Then people will perhaps want to buy and then keep playing the damn thing.

 

[squid5580]

It seems to me in terms of copies they don't get paid for used games should be 3rd on the list

#1 Piracy - millions of copies are distributed from a single copy

#2 Rentals - Gamefly, blockbuster ect. all offer unlimited time with a game meaning anyone can rent, beat and never buy to thousands of people over the course of a single copies lifetime

#3 used games. Sure that copy is going to change hands a few times but nowhere near the extent of the other examples listed

 

[Elijin]

Id say his comments are meant to be taken within the context of 'To sales.'

In that respect, on the developers side, Pre-owned would be worse then piracy. With Piracy, there are lot of people who pirate things that would just flat out never buy your game anyway. If they couldnt pirate it, they would skip it entirely. So in Piracy, its often the case that the studios are not losing a sale.

However with Pre-owned sales, people are legally buying it, and dont have concerns that they stole or cheated the company or any such. They support a product, and they paid their dollars for a legally aquired legitimate copy. However, the studio doesnt see a dollar in that sale, so they did in fact lose a sale.

So in that respect, to the profit sheets, Pre-owned sales are probably a bigger issue then Piracy. I get what he's saying, but Im seeing it entirely misunderstood a lot in this topic.

 

[Jumwa]

Well, do consider that it is the retailer that the publishers are selling to, not the public, and used sales will probably have had an enormous affect on the number of games the retailers buy.

Lets assume 10 years ago a high street retailer would order 30,000 copies of the game to cover their national stores. They pay the publisher for 30,000 copies (and then mark it up to high street price) and sell it to you and me.

Now, the retailer knows they are only likely to sell 12,000 in the first month, and the remaining 18,000 will be used sales, months after release. They know they only really need to order 12,000, because the remaining sales will be 2nd, 3rd or 4th hand, the initial customers will have traded them in. They pay the publisher for 12,000 copies and sell them to you and me 3-4 times.

Sure I'm pulling numbers out of the air, but there is no reason for retailers to buy more stock than they can reasonably sell, and if they know they have a viable trade-in market, they certainly aren't going to order as many copies from the publishers as they would without the trade-ins.

I don't disagree with your point, however I don't know how that contradicts what I said.

If they would adapt the prices of games more readily (and likely just overall) then I think used game sales would not be so big of an issue in general.

 

[Wolfram23]

I certainly see where he's coming from. If you buy used, then obviously you're looking to lay some cash down on the game. So most used sales are in fact a loss of sale. Meanwhile, not many people pirating would bother to legitimately pick up the title so it's usually not a lost sale, but on top of that, there's also skewed numbers because some pirates do it as a demo and then do, in fact, buy the game if it's good. So again, it's not a lost sale but a gained sale.

Used games, are a single copy being sold twice... obviously the publisher is only going to see money on the original sale.

But I do think it's partially they're own fault. Combat it by offering lower prices, more content updates and free DLC to legitimate owners. Also, make games people want to own... I have games that I have no intention to sell, and I have other games that I already traded off because they just weren't good, had very little replay value, or whatever else.