BBC Debate: Games Aren't Art ... Yet

[The Wooster]

BBC Debate: Games Aren't Art ... Yet

Ekow Eshun, former director of the UK's Institute of Contemporary Arts, doesn't think games are art right now but he sees their potential.

Debating the topic with author, comedian and regular panel show ghost Charlie Higson on BBC Radio 4's Today Programme, Eshun stated quite plainly that "Video games are entertainment." Now, before you scuttle off to grab your debating stick, he did go on to say; "most of the things we enjoy in life are entertainment. Lots of books, lots of TV shows, lots of films aren't art. That doesn't make them bad, it makes them really enjoyable."

"Most of the things we like, enjoy and admire are really good but whether they're at the precise high level where we say this changes how I see the world in a significant and deep way, well, actually they don't."

When asked whether Minecraft, one of the usual suspects wheeled out by the games-are-art crowd, counted as art, Eshun replied in the negative. "No, it's not art and I think it's probably not trying to be art either," he said. "I'd suggest that the things we really consider art are the things that allow us to ask profound questions about who we are, how we live and the state of the world around us. I think most games don't get to that place, and it's important to set that bar quite high."

What separates Eshun from, say, Roger Ebert [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/100062-Ebert-Re-Emphasizes-That-Games-Will-Never-Be-Art], is that while he believes no current games can be counted as art - though you do have to wonder how many games he's played - that isn't a condemnation of the entire medium. "I think the likelihood is that at some point there will be games that ask profound questions," he noted.

Higson, a gamer himself, didn't disagree, but he did argue that the impact games have had on other mediums is undeniable. "Hollywood films - most of them look like computer games. Most of them aren't as good as computer games," he pointed out.

"In terms of storytelling, a game like Grand Theft Auto is enormously complex and works on loads of different levels, and it looks amazing too."

Though the games-as-art debate remains as popular as ever, you do have to wonder if there's any point to it. "Art," both as a concept and a definition, is often arbitrary and nebulous, there will never be any real consensus on the matter. A far more interesting question is why acquiring the "art" label, a label you'd be sharing with such luminaries as Tracey Emin [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracey_Emin], matters to the gaming community in the first place.

Source: Eurogamer [http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-11-01-bbc-debate-games-arent-art-yet-but-thats-okay-article]


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[hudsonzero]

"In terms of storytelling, a game like Grand Theft Auto is enormously complex and works on loads of different levels"
wait GTA had a story?

 

[SomeLameStuff]

"In terms of storytelling, a game like Grand Theft Auto is enormously complex and works on loads of different levels"
wait GTA had a story?

That's what I was thinking.

I was under the impression that it was all about cousins and bowling.

 

[The Wooster]

"In terms of storytelling, a game like Grand Theft Auto is enormously complex and works on loads of different levels"
wait GTA had a story?

From 3 onward they're actually very well written crime comedy/dramas.

 

[SwishiestB0g]

Honestly, go play the Witcher for a game that can make you question who you are, the world around you, humanity even. No good, evil, right or wrong.

Is it okay to kill something because it's not like you. Something we're struggling with even today, racial, societal and cultural acceptance. That game makes me think and question how we deal with those issues.

Though that's just my opinion.

 

[Charli]

"I'd suggest that the things we really consider art are the things that allow us to ask profound questions about who we are, how we live and the state of the world around us. I think most games don't get to that place, and it's important to set that bar quite high."

Firstly, I think that will change and has already changed for us younger generations.
What inspires and forces you to question yourself and surroundings is not necessarily the same for someone else.

Why is matters sadly is because Art and Mathematics are the building blocks of a creation like a video game. It is a culmination of all types of artists and programmers and such working together in a way never conceived before. Being taken seriously by people sadly demands a credible label before it, and to study the creation of the media can have a profound impact if some arseholes don't actually recognize it as an actual 'thing' so to speak.

There are plenty of games that qualify as artwork in my eyes, and as such I have to extend the classification to the ENTIRE media, because as much as the pretentious crowd try to hide it there are a million failures to be 'art' in the Artistic, Music or Written world that ironically enough don't qualify to be the very thing that they are classified as either.

Derp.

 

[RipRoaringWaterfowl]

He's off by t___________h__________i___________s much. We have art now from games, and thank God you, Mr. Eshun, at least know we'll do more of that in the future.

A lot better than R____________o___________g_____________e__________r E____________b_______e____________r_________________t, who, while a fantastic film critic, jumped the gun on this subject.

 

[MASTACHIEFPWN]

Of coarse they are Art right now, Just not super popular games, look at "The most anticipated game ever." It's call of duty Modern Warfare 3.
*Megafacepalm*

If we just invested our talent into more creative, less repititive media, then hell yeah it'd be better than that goddamn De Venci.

 

[zehydra]

that's bull, entertainment IS art

 

[ddq5]

I kinda have to agree. I've played a lot of *awesome* games, but none so far that cause my to stand up and exclaim "THIS is ART!", which I've done for a few movies, TV shows, and songs. Some have gotten very close (Portal), but as a whole at least, games still have a ways to go. But I look forward to games gaining a greater sense of artistic achievement.

And re: GTA story, I find the story missions the best part of GTA IV, I thought it was really well-done. Better than the random destruction in that game, too. If I want that, I'll play Saint's Row.

 

[lynnfire]

"I'd suggest that the things we really consider art are the things that allow us to ask profound questions about who we are, how we live and the state of the world around us. I think most games don't get to that place, and it's important to set that bar quite high."

Herpa.

There are plenty of games that qualify as artwork in my eyes, and as such I have to extend the classification to the ENTIRE media, because as much as the pretentious crowd try to hide it there are a million failures to be 'art' in the Artistic, Music or Written world that ironically enough don't qualify to be the very thing that they are classified as either.

Derp.

This is exactly what I was going to say. Nicely put

 

[aba1]

Metal gear solid sure dealt with such questions of life and how we viewed it so I guess that could be art though I do feel some games truly are artistic but just like film the medium as a whole mostly isn't.

I think the reason gamers want games to be a art form is that it shows that games can be mature medium and will allow it to be taken more seriously in society's eyes

 

[ckam]

"In terms of storytelling, a game like Grand Theft Auto is enormously complex and works on loads of different levels, and it looks amazing too."

Um... No. Try a different game, GTA isn't really much more complex than Jak 2 and 3.

 

[DarkRyter]

People always have these weird stipulations on what is and isn't art.

I just stick with "Someone consciously made it through some technique or skill = Art."

 

[Charli]

If we just invested our talent into more creative, less repetitive media, then hell yeah it'd be art.

But here's a kicker, the most popular and usually anticipated forms of all things classified as 'art' are thing's like Comics, Trashy novels, Big Budget movies, Generic Corporate Pop music.

Yet these things have ALL fallen under the label of art just because of what they are.

They fall under that label in terms of being taught said media. Yet (in the UK) video games are not offered that same privilege? Despite some utter gems that have no doubt talked to people and really connected with them in ways that the 'popular' forms of media currently under that label wouldn't ever manage.

I calls Bullshit. Video games are utterly Art in that sense.



Now if we want to go debating ACTUAL Artistic value and inspiration that is some whole other ball game and been raging in debates in Art classes centuries over.

Oh just to inform everyone outside of the UK: BBC Radio 4 is considered the 'older generation' radio show. They usually blab on and hold debates and when a topic that they don't understand nor have any desire to comes on they usually waffle about how ridiculous it is and rip it to shreds all the while giving little pats on the back to each other about how great it was in their day.

 

[Hal10k]

"In other news, the debate continues to rage over whether the hamburgers served at a local restaurant are, in fact, delicious. Proponents of the hamburgers being delicious argue that they fit all preexisting qualifications for being delicious, and that this should be obvious to anybody who has eaten one of these hamburgers.

"A smaller subset of this group argues that, while the hamburgers have yet to actually become delicious, they may eventually become so. 'They taste alright, but the chef really has to improve before anybody can call these things delicious. I think most fans of the hamburgers are just being overly defensive,' said a proponent of this school of hamburger thought.

"However, this line of thinking is opposed by the harshest critics of the hamburgers. 'They simply taste awful. How could anybody find these things delicious?' said one of these people. 'They taste nothing like steak, or pizza, or even a decent salad. How can anybody find them delicious if they don't taste like them at all?'

"We eagerly await the day when we can declare a definitive victor in the debate over whether hamburgers taste good."

 

[aashell13]

well, I tend to hold that 3/4ths of the stuff euphemistically termed 'post-modern art' would be more appropriately entitled 'post-modern con art'.

 

[Desworks]

Well, as a medium we seem to be jumping towards the art classification fast. Just last year it was "will never be art", now were all the way to "could be art in the future". It took comics half a century to get to that stage and they are literally drawings!

At this rate, in 5 years all games will be considered art, even the ones that clearly aren't. Also, all gamers will become incredibly pretentious (we're already making steps in that direction, after all)!

 

[gallaetha_matt]

<
Though the games-as-art debate remains as popular as ever, you do have to wonder if there's any point to it. "Art," both as a concept and a definition, is often arbitrary and nebulous, there will never be any real consensus on the matter. A far more interesting question is why acquiring the "art" label, a label you'd be sharing with such luminaries as Tracey Emin [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracey_Emin], matters to the gaming community in the first place.

I respect anybody that will work in some disrespect to Tracey Emin. She's awful. The only reason she's even considered an artist is because she ripped all her work from her better, more talented ex-lover - Billy Childish. The only reason she hasn't been called up for it is because Billy C doesn't want any sort of fame or recommendation, so nobody knows who he is.

Every time I hear her name I feel compelled to point that out. These are your 'artists' folks, give me a gunwielding space marine any day of the week.

 

[Jimmy Sylvers]

This is all rubbish. All entertainment is art, whether it is high art/culture or pop culture is another question altogether but i think a lot of people confuse the two questions when debating this concept.

Actors are artists thus any game that has voice actors is art.
Texture artists are...well I just said it thus any game with textures is art.
Writers are artists... you get the point.

I think that if someone can find me a current generation video game that has absolutely no artists involved in it's production then I will accept that it is not art. I think you would be hard pressed to do so....