A Challenge to Pro-#GamerGaters and Anti-#Gamergaters

[Sethran]

Hello everyone, how are you doing?

Good? Me too. Bad? I'm sorry to hear that. Indifferent? Well, that sucks.

So before we begin let me start with an introduction. I've been a member of the Escapist since 2008, I've been a gamer - and no, I don't think it's an offensive term - for most of my life, getting my start on the NES and PC back in the 90s. I'm what you might call an omni-gamer in that I enjoy every kind of game for it's own merits. I like RPGs, FPSs, RTSs, whatever you want to call it I can probably find at least one example of that type of game that I have or would enjoy. I'm also married, have dealt with ADHD all my life, currently work as a security engineer for an I.T. firm, am an actor and have been performing for over 10 years now, and am going to school to get a degree in Film

Now before you get bored, there's a point to all of this.

I'm a typically silent member of the community as a whole because I don't believe that shouting at one another makes a change, especially not on the internet where vitriol flows freely thanks to anonymity. I like to think that there are a lot of people like me who, even though the Escapist's forums aren't the worst example of this, are afraid to dip their toe into the conversation because they don't want it to get bitten off.

That being said, since reading the frankly embarrassingly large amount of back-and-forth going on recently thanks to this whole #gamergate thing, and the frankly disgusting treatment of people that has been going on around the internet since it's founding that has somehow ramped up in the past few months, I've decided to issue a challenge to my fellow Escapists - both pro and anti #gamergaters alike.

Pro #GamerGaters, let's start with you first.

I want you to give us a paragraph - doesn't have to be super detailed, just look at the one I did above, describing yourself. Tell us a little about you, about your likes and hobbies, enough for us to see you as a person and not an anonymous person behind a keyboard. Then, explain why you support #GamerGate - and try to be as amiable as possible, we don't want to spark hostilities here.

And then, I want you to admit and apologize for the things you know people associated to #gamergate have done that you find objectionable. Don't try to sweep it under the rug, don't try to ignore or hide it - your movement cannot grow if it's unwilling to acknowledge it's mistakes, or the mistakes of those who claim to support it.

That's my challenge to you.

Anti #GamerGaters, you're next.

Just as with the above, I want you to give us a paragraph. Not the most detailed, just look at the one I did above. Describe yourself, give us a little bit about you and your likes, your hobbies, why you would or would not consider yourself a gamer. Just like with the #GamerGaters, I want to be able to see you as an individual and not an anonymous person behind a keyboard. Then, explain why you do not support #GamerGate - and please refrain from being hostile. I don't want to see facts and links and essays, just your personal opinion.

Then, I want you to admit and apologize for the things you know people who are anti-#gamergate have done that you find objectionable. You know they exist, just as much as the opposite exists. And just like how #GamerGate can't progress if it ignores the worst aspects of it, neither can your side of the argument.

That's my challenge to you.

Now's the part where we ask ourselves "Why should I do any of this?" Well, you don't have to if you don't want to, but I find that so long as we do not accept and acknowledge mistakes on either side of the argument, then the discussion always devolves back into pointing out those flaws as justifications like "Your side did this, so you don't get to talk" - even if what the person is saying is logical and well thought out. And, of course, such dismissals only spur further anger and arguments.

And finally, my challenge to EVERYONE;

DO NOT turn this thread into a quote-a-thon of back and forth essay slinging. There are other threads for that.

DO use this to spark a conversation, to make that crucial connection required to form a sympathetic understanding with your opposition, to try and reach some neutral ground from which to have a rational, adult, and logic filled discussion about the issues we're trying to resolve.

If we just take a minute to get to know one another BEFORE we start the discussion, to understand where each other is coming from and to know that they might not be the worst the opposition has to offer, then maybe we can get somewhere - rather than 300+ pages of bickering.

Maybe, just maybe, right here on the Escapist forums, we can get people to stop slinging around 'social justice warrior' and 'misogynist' whenever this issue comes up.

Are you willing to take my challenge?

 

[Sethran]

The Dark Cloud series was great, I loved them both!

Thanks for taking the challenge, WNH

 

[DANEgerous]

Okay so I am Pro #GamerGate. Hi My name is Richard Dane Lewis I have been a gamer since I could talk my first console was the NES which I played to death along with my own Mom and brother. The first game I ever beat fully was Super Mario Brothers 3 along with my Mom who is unfathomably good at water levels. I had exclusively Nintendo until the PS2 came out in 2000 and at the same time got a PC that was not horrible and could run games in an acceptable manner. Gaming has been a part of nearly every friendship I have ever had with people ranging from 8 to well over 50, I have found it to be one of the most open and vibrant communities I have ever been a part of. It tends to accept anyone poor or rich young or old male or female any faith or none, all political parties, races, and sexualities I have found them all as gamers. It as I have stated in previous posts is one of the only places I feel truly accepted and I say that with it having been with me for every part of my life. I have neither the will nor capability to cast gaming aside as it contains to many relationships to do so. From family to friends, and coworkers to proffers I had in school they are all on one of my gaming friends lists and even if we have not talked in a decade we can over a game when I see their username is in something I play, long time no see old friends.

Now for the second part... nope. Sorry not going to apologize. Why? Simple people I know in #GamerGate have defended their critics, spoken up against doxxing and sexism and tend to call for a ceasefire. Perhaps I am just blind and utterly wrong here, to that I can admit but I keep coming back to people on my side that thing gender should not play a roll in this madhouse, that do not care about the sex life of people and just want a more open and transparent form of journalism. That said anyone who condones "Black Hat" hacking, Sexism, Doxxing, or even mere insults is here by denounced by me as an ally, I can not accept such underhanded tactics.

 

[Sethran]

The first game I ever beat entirely was Secret of Mana, but I think that's just because that was the only game my older brother let me play by myself.

As to the second part, speaking up about a thing doesn't eliminate it's existence. I'm not asking you to apologize for anything, just to acknowledge it's existence.

Thanks for taking the challenge, Dane!

 

[Calbeck]

Pro #GamerGaters, let's start with you first.

I want you to give us a paragraph - doesn't have to be super detailed, just look at the one I did above, describing yourself. Tell us a little about you, about your likes and hobbies, enough for us to see you as a person and not an anonymous person behind a keyboard.

Scott Malcomson (sez so on my Twitter), old-school gamer with his toes in just about every fandom there's been since the '80s. For about as long, I've enjoyed debunking conspiracy theories as a hobby, teething on Mayan-Astronaut nuts and eventually assisting the Anti-Defamation League with investigating the Militia Movement during the mid-'90s.

Lifetime independent voter, with a brief but passionate time in trying to beat back the Buchanan Brigades when they invaded and tore apart the Reform Party (Arizona Delegate at the 2000 National Convention). Before that, I was on the ballot for Governor of Arizona on a thousand-dollar budget (Ethics, Economy, Education). Got about 8,500 votes, most likely from folks who saw me rip into the big names at public debate forums.

I do tech support and I happen to have the month off, so I'm enjoying a bit of indulgence in my old myth-busting habits.

Then, explain why you support #GamerGate - and try to be as amiable as possible, we don't want to spark hostilities here.

When most of a genre-specific media force turns around and plasters their customers with hateful, vicious language which solidly cements the Fox News stereotype of gamer culture? No. I'll stand with the accused against the slander. And no, that's not a term I use lightly. I authentically believe that the journos levying the charge know full well it does not represent gamer culture in general, let alone gamers as a whole.

Since then, I have of course done as much deep-dive research as I can from here, mostly collating and confirming existing data rather than assuming "X is right because I like them". I never knew any of these people a few days ago anyway, I had no friends to protect-at-all-costs. I could burn the nascent bridges, if it was the right thing to do.

As I investigated, one of my first discoveries was Kotaku's open declaration that they did not examine ANY relations (romantic or otherwise) between reporters and persons of possible interest. The reasoning? That this would be an invasion of privacy.

Problem: disclosure to an editor of any relations (especially romantic) are required by mainstream publications, even if no coverage (or sex for that matter) takes place. As soon as a relation develops, the editors must be made aware so they can take appropriate steps, such as moving the reporter to a non-conflicting beat. This is done not only to prevent actual quid pro quo, but even the APPEARANCE of impropriety.

Because, surprise surprise, it turns out that when people find out about an affair they tend to assume the worst. It's human nature. Plenty of historical scandals had nothing behind them but were created due to bad policymaking and poor or no oversight.

Here, Kotaku had no oversight. It left security holes bigger than Windows 95. What would have kept an EA representative from giving a Kotaku reporter a $10,000 check and a cuddle over a romantic dinner?

And then, I want you to admit and apologize for the things you know people associated to #gamergate have done that you find objectionable.

I will be frank: I have not seen anyone from #gamergate harass, doxx, death-threat, hate on minorities or hate on women. I know, intellectually, that SOMEONE has done these things SOMEWHERE, but I have no names and every example that's been hurled at me by an anti-GG member seems to have been right around the time of the original ZQ Explosion. Weeks before I got here.

Naturally, I expect to be called liar/shill/whatever. I've seen and heard the same from the Buchananistas. I'll deal.

 

[shrekfan246]

Hello everyone, how are you doing?

Hi, I'm all right. Been pretty stressed out, but I've been relaxing with a bit of the old Transformers - War For Cybertron.

Are you willing to take my challenge?

I dunno. All the good intentions in the world seem to fall flat once they hit the internet.

...

Eh, why not.

Howdy, I'm a person who exists. At least I generally think that I exist. Sometimes it's questionable. EDIT: My name is on my profile, for those who care enough about it. 8D

I've been on this website practically daily for the past three and a half years, and I've been a regular chatter in the Brovengers user group for a little over two of those years. I often laugh at many of the posts I see around the internet, because I find the way people conduct themselves on the internet to be pretty hilarious at times. I've been playing games since I was a toddler, for about twenty years now, across PC, Sega Genesis, Nintendo 64 and Gamecube and Game Boy and DS and most recently the Wii U, across Playstation and PS2 and PS3 and PSP and Vita, Xbox and Xbox 360. But I don't really associate myself with the term "gamer", because I feel almost ashamed of it at this point. I've seen too many people who self-identify with it do and say truly horrifying things over the years.

I've always been something of a social recluse despite being able to make friends easily; I can get the same things out of interactions with people online as I do in person (with a few obvious exceptions as far as specifics are concerned). After graduating from high school, I spent two years dealing with severe depression and then resolved to spend the last two years trying to better myself, resulting in a loss of a little over 100 pounds. I've currently been unable to get a job or the money required to attend university and will be trying again for the 2015 school year, and I would like to have a career as a writer and/or English teacher.

Now on to the difficult stuff.

I can't support GamerGate because from where I see it, it's inherently tied to all of the political baggage that people have been complaining about near constantly for the last two and a half years. For every comment I see that's trying to get video games journalists to just acknowledge that their readers have issues with the way they present their work, I see five different comments that remark on how this or that website needs to be shut down and how this or that writer needs to be pushed out of their job permanently, I see people celebrating when freelance writers announce they're going to stop talking about games, I see people arguing about feminism and social justice warriors, I see them browbeating any dissenting voice into submission just by sheer volume. I see them doing the same exact things they criticize the other side for doing, and I see them refuse to acknowledge or own up to that.

I see them aligning themselves with people they really shouldn't be backing who have only gotten involved in this because of the political issues present, simply because those people are expressing support for GamerGate. I see them trying to prove how any and all connections any journalist might have to anybody else is somehow indicative of "corruption", and I see them solely targeting small indie developers and singular outspoken journalists while completely ignoring the legitimate problems games journalism has because of AAA publishers and their advertising branches. And as much as I agree with any push for higher quality games journalism, I want to have that discussion without the extra weight dragged upon it by all of the political stuff. I don't think it's a conversation we can have while a significant number of people involved are solely focused on arguing about "SJWs" and how they're supposedly harming the industry.

At the same time, while I'm probably classified as "anti-GamerGate", I don't agree with that side either. Zoe Quinn, Phil Fish, and Leigh Alexander have done very little but shake the hornet's nest since day one and much as I might respect their work, I can't respect the public personae they've been projecting. All of those "Gamers are Dead" articles were poorly-worded at the very best and heavily misguided, and their timing simply added more fuel on to the fire of accusations being leveled at the games journalists. And, much like the pro-GamerGate side, a lot of people have gotten involved with it simply because of the political implications and have done their damnedest to help stir the coals of the "Us vs. Them" mentality. I've also seen a lot of people marginalize the group of GamerGate supporters who are only concerned about the journalistic side of things by laser-focusing on the political aspects of GamerGate and--while I think that's part of the problem facing GamerGate--I don't think it does anybody any good to say GamerGate is all about pushing back against women in the industry or anything. All it does is make pro-GamerGate people get even more defensive.

 

[RexMundane]

The goblin of cynicism that lives in my brain knows too well how infrequently things like this work out, but never let it be said I didn't try.

I don't remember a time I was ever not playing video games. I'm sure there must have been a time when I naturally wasn't, but I became attached early on with old freely-copied (legit or not, but such details tend not to matter when you're 8 years old) games on my old IBM 8088 and TI-99/4A computers, games like CPokeMan and Alley Cat and Hovver Bovver and Parsec. I had (and have since lost) collections of games and consoles for everything I could get at yard sales throughout my childhood and adolescence, remember the bizarre joy of playing Jungle Hunt on a black and white TV set up in my bedroom, jamming arrows into dragon-ducks in Adventure, and falling into pit after pit in ET. I've... I mean I'm rambling but suffice to say, I've been around a bit.

Gamergate's existence is, fundamentally, why I have trouble telling people I'm a gamer (though it helps too that Gamergate has kindly told me that I'm not one if I don't support them, so thanks for that). It's a lifelong hobby that I'm deeply ashamed to admit to because this public face exists. I can look bast the abuse and sexism and racists on Xbox live etc., I get that they're separate issues in the long-run. It's the rage. Not just that it exists, but that it's endorsed, cultivated, promoted over reasonable discussion, justified for it's own sake, and defended with more anger as it comes closer to whatever line separates it from abuse. And Gamergate is full of it to bursting. I'd list examples, such as proudly self-describing as an angry mob and violent resistence to clearly stated goals because, if met, they'd stop the rage, but that would sort of break the format. Suffice to say, rage of this kind is embarassing, easily gives birth to enemy after enemy, grand impossible conspiracies, and just more and more snarling hostility. Whatever else I may agree with, such as need for media transparency etc., Gamergate is the last thing I'd willingly join if I wanted to affect positive change.

As for apologies, first I'd be remiss to not acknowledge that this whole thing has brought out the worst in many of us, myself included. I've said hurtful things to people I don't know in the slightest (though in whatever schoolyard defense I might employ here, I don't recall ever starting it) and for my sake as much as theirs, I should have known better than to let this get the better of me, and regret basically most of what I've said on twitter, hence why I blocked it for myself for a month. I understand too that there have been various threats against GG'ers, and while I personally still believe some of them are either exaggerated or just plain invented (by, for instance, an opportunist hack journalist with recent history of distorting the truth whose convinced people the post will deliver an un-capped syringe on a sunday and then doesn't want to take it to the police) or otherwise difficult to directly tie to Gamergate opposition, all such threats are nevertheless serious to the people really experiencing them, and to whatever degree I can, I apologize that they're happening.

edit: I notice of the three gamergate respondants, two insist there's nothing to apologize for, and the one acknowledged problems and yet just plain didn't. More fool me for playing along with the premise of the thread in good faith, I suppose. You win again, brain-goblin.

 

[Jesterscup]

Hello,
My name is Ben Lyons, I am also sometimes known by the title "Mistress Sinestra". I've been playing games since the Amstrad 464, I've owned NES SNES, Atari 800, Playstation and PC's. The First game I remember beating was Zelda on the SNES. Gaming whether RPG, board or computer gaming has been a strong part of my life. I'm also a survivor of abuse, but beyond that I lived in a reasonably small place where what happened was public knowledge. Why do I say this? well it's to illustrate in a very real way how I understand how the cruelty people can exhibit, and how much damage. So clearly I have an agenda, to stand up against such cruelty, and to speak out for those such as myself, so all to often don't have a voice, or are simply scared to speak out. Due to the persona I wear as part of my performance art, I still receive such things, but from both sexes ( seriously, I'm Scottish - you don't need to be 'dressed', just be a man in a skirt/kilt and some woman will try to grope you ). I receive a lot of flak from both sides in this great debate.

So here I stand, Proudly fighting injustice,bigotry,hatred and ignorance wherever I see it, even ( or perhaps especially) when it comes from myself. I don't see myself as pro or anti, both sides have valid points, both sides have behaved badly. Progress is made by those who stand up and say "lets be better" and thats an ideal I try to hold myself to.

So Firstly, I stand by those who seek for higher integrity, in all forms of journalistic press. I apologise for all threats, Doxxing, and the,frankly disturbing, trolling&publication of someones private life, and anything else which may have occurred.

Secondly. I understand quite how vehement those who feel they are fighting for a just cause can be, how anyone not following that line can be labelled sexist or misogynist, how more extreme elements can call for censorship. it's easy to turn round and label someone who doesn't agree with you as a hater. I apologise for these as well.

and if there is any behaviour I've not listed here, I Apologise for as well. As far as I'm concerned having a reason or justification is not an excuse for bad behaviour, and that such behaviour damages any case to be made.

 

[Tohuvabohu]

I like to think that there are a lot of people like me who, even though the Escapist's forums aren't the worst example of this, are afraid to dip their toe into the conversation because they don't want it to get bitten off.

That's how I feel about this. I think there's definitely something very important at the core of this issue, but I feel more comfortable watching from the sidelines. I really hope this topic will not turn into another monstrous back-and-forth thread of pain.

I do support the #Gamergate cause in theory and spirit. But haven't actually done anything to support it beyond that. I feel that it's become a hot mess right now, and there's just too much noise for me to get involved in. I'm waiting for the dust to settle.

Anyway, about myself:

I've been a gamer for my entire life. Literally. As in, the very first memory in my entire life was me slamming a Super Mario World cartridge into the SNES and playing. I've been playing videogames ever since. I enjoy a wide variety of games from RPGs to hack and slashers, shooters, multiplayer/coop, RTS's, TBS's, competitive fighting games, racing games, sims. I've always had a very deep fondness of videogames throughout my whole life.
I am 25 years old, and I currently work as a DOT-Compliance officer for a contractor company building large-scale chemical plants. I finished welding training in MIG/Flux Core processes in the 4g position. I plan to begin a welding career soon, and continue learning more welding processes as well as Pipe/Alloy welding.

And my stance on #gamergate:

Spoiler

I honestly think the core of #gamergate is something that's hard to argue against. Disclosure and transparency in journalism isn't a bad thing at all. And I'd appreciate more honesty from those who bring gaming news to us. Even though I hardly have the time to play games as much as I used to, I still read gaming news daily. It's still an important hobby to me, and the sentiment I hold towards it is very dear. As such, I don't think it's unreasonable for me to greatly appreciate honesty and respect from the journalists.

These same journalists who have been attacking and deriding me these past few weeks, just because of what I believe in. These people are supposed to be professionals. I'm supposed to be able to trust them to deliver news to me of my favorite hobby in the world, and the slander being thrown in my direction just for believing in the core of a movement... I don't like to engage in hyperbole. But this kind of treatment from supposed professionals makes me sick. And I can't bring myself to ignore that treatment.

What makes this even worse is how comfortable we've all become with the corruption existing before all of this happened. For example, We all knew of things like review sites firing reviewers if they didn't give good scores. I mean, isn't it time for a real change?

That being said, it's a shame that the root of this movement lie right beside an invasion of privacy. From the getgo, this all started because of one man's rant about the shit his ex-girlfriend did. And from the getgo, I had no interest in the things that Zoe allegedly did. What she did is her own business. What bothered me was the implications this had on videogame journalism. Yet, it seemed that hardly anyone cared about that. And instead attacked a person. I think this was an incredibly wrong thing for anyone to do.

I never support harassment and threats, and it feels like that's all that was being done before #gamergate actually became a thing. Now that the movement actually seems to have a semblance of direction, and has moved far beyond that, the image problem and misconception of it's core principles are the gamers own doing. And the harassment and bile still continues. Even though I believe the core of the movement, it's hard to associate with it when it's roots lie along something I'm so vehemently against (Invasions of privacy and harmful gossip of someone else's personal business).

If I could apologize for anything, beyond the needlessly aggressive and thoroughly shameful behavior from the worst of those who claim to support #gamergate, I apologize for sitting on the sideline so much and not taking part in the discussion. I'm just so... tired of these back-and-forth internet arguments. But I honestly think #gamergate is more than that, so I could have done more to add to the conversation, or perhaps even try to calm people down.

 

[BubbleBurst]

So, I'm Anti-GamerGate. This is also my first post to these forums, so I'll take one sentence to explain what brought me here. Basically, I'm a gamer, and I am also a feminist who has several friends who are MRAs, we have spent a fair amount of time more-or-less calmly arguing about the relative merits of the #GamerGate movement. I came here because it seems like on of the few forums with both sides represented and some rational discussion, and I think everyone benefits from a reasoned discussion that includes both sides of an issue, including the side I disagree with.

I've been playing video games in one medium or another since NES, through Gameboy and PS2, and now am almost exclusively a PC gamer. I tend towards RPG and Strategy games with occasional platformers or puzzle games, although I'll branch out into shooters with some incentive (usually in the form of friends convincing me). I'm a medical student who spends most of his time doing medical student-y stuff, and I use games to relax and to socialize. I also dabble in a few other hobbies, with photography and astronomy being most prominent. I don't support #GamerGate for a few reasons. Personally, I would love a rational discussion on ethics in gaming journalism; I think there's a lot there that needs to be fixed. However, I don't think that a discussion on journalism ethics is benefited by focusing on so-called Social Justice Warriors trying to "change gaming." I don't think there's anything wrong with social critique, examining the way our society treats certain groups, individuals, or anything else. I also don't think that "Social Justice Warriors," even if you disagree with their causes, are at the heart of any kind of impropriety of gaming journalism. Also, even among people I like personally, I think the #GamerGate movement has taken on a distinctly anti-individual (usually anti-female-individual) tone. I read articles, including several on this site, that describe the personal harassment that people face just by speaking up about #GamerGate, and how that makes people afraid to say anything at all. I realize that that's not everyone in the movement, but I don't think you get to claim to have good motivations in making an argument without denouncing, or at least realizing, some of the terrible things being said and done in the name of that argument right next to you. I think when you ignore harassment under your banner, you condone harassment.

All of that being said, this is the internet, and there are lots of things done wrong on the Anti-#GamerGate side, including some of the hyperbole and harassment that is an internet specialty. I think Anthony Burch saying supporters of #GamerGate are condoning abuse like child pornography was a bridge so far into unreality, it probably ends somewhere in Narnia. I'm sorry that there is a tendency to generalize the entire anti-#GamerGate movement as one being pushed solely by young white men, and I don't like that there is a tendency to dismiss or outright accuse someone of sock-puppetting if they do not fit that stereotype but support #GamerGate.

This is a good topic, I hope it leads to some good, real discussion.

 

[GJHenry]

I'm a filipino gamer since the 90s and I'm a Pro #Gamergate. My first gaming console was a famicom. I have played SNES, Genesis SEGA, Playstation, and PC games. Now, I'm more of a PC user and I don't buy consoles anymore. I like to play RPG, TBS, RTS, 4x, grand strategy, MOBAS, and sometimes first person shooters.

I'm a supporter of #gamergate because I adhere for good practice in business. A good example of bad practice was the latest rantic tactic wherein they deceived millions of people just for their own personal agenda. Another reason is that I want fair reporting. Favoring one party because of personal reasons has consequences. For example, Someone who has a small gaming business with 25 employees released a game that is a masterpiece and his business depends on this game, but it did not sell well because the other party manipulated publicity and gave it bad publicity instead. 25 employees immediately loses their job bringing hardships to their family. Last reason for me is that gaming is escapist tool/To get out of reality/for the sake of fun. It won't turn out to be fun if it will be smeared with current politics. For example, Europa Universalis, a grand strategy game, removed its slavery resource because of political reasons. I don't tolerate slavery but it represent the events during the timeline of Europa Universalis.

Well, there is some extent that people jump the gun but it's not entirely the case. We're not really a hivemind as most people think. The tweets I see most of the time are humiliating us rather than talk about the issues at hand. They still bring up the sexism point of view wherein our message is entirely different. A good example is this [http://i.imgur.com/h8HDt60.jpg]. Although some of us did get out of hand during a debate 2 days ago when our side humiliated the opposition because of his language and I do apologize for that because English is also my second language.

 

[Irick]

I like this idea. Far too often it becomes easy to dehumanise 'the opposition' in any large social movement.

I have been gaming ever since i was old enough to hold a controller. I have some old home movies of my playing shootemups and Legacy of the Wizard when I was about four. I also have a strong interest in martial arts, philosophy and I would consider myself a Hacker. Now, hacker here is probably not used in the way that you think it is. In the context of gaming, a hacker is usually considered someone who exploits a game in order to gain an advantage, and a hacker in the mass media is basically synonymous with cybercriminal. I am a hacker in the MIT sense. I enjoy being playfully clever. Recently I've been studying the philosophy of games. I finished reading The Grasshopper: Games, Life, and Utopia and I very much recommend it. I consider the medium to be artistic at its core and I am enamored by the possibilities that it offers for expression.

Recently a friend bought me Wasteland 2 and i'm <3ing all over it. I love this resurgence in old school turn based RPGs. Shadowrun Dragonfall was awesome, Divinity original Sin was awesome, Xcom: Enemy Unknown was awesome :3. But, lets get down the the crux of the issue.

First off, I would like to explain how I see #Gamergate. Gamergate to me is a call out against:
a) the corruption in journalism (games journalism in particular)
b) the demonization of the term gamer.

I, in general, consider the media corrupt. In this, I have bias, all of my prominent social niches get lambasted in the mainstream media. However, in games media it just seems more obvious. Sponsorships are pretty evident, press parties are kinda ridiculous. I understand that there is a level of collusion that inevitably exists in medium where publishers can dangle the carrot of advanced review copies when at the same time offering massive perks to the games media. I also understand that the current AAA development methodology makes companies press pretty hard on the press for worry of not breaking even. However, these facts need to be communicated, and we should be working against it IMO.

Now, as for the demonization of the word gamer. I understand it was backlash in response to the harassment surrounding Zoe Quinn. This does not excuse it. The term gamer is part of our collective identity. It has a rich history and it's a beautiful representation of my philosophy regarding games. "Gamer" - one who games. The player, the DM, the designer, everyone involved in the gaming sphere is a gamer. They make games happen. That's so eloquent to me and I don't want to see it muddied by our own games media to mean something abhorrent. I don't want to see it become a pejorative.

Going back to my self identity as a Hacker. This same sort of massive media backlash occured against that relatively obscure subculture. It's a subculture that includes some of the greats, Steve Wozniak and Eric S. Raymond come readily to mind. But... you don't hear about really clever engineers or thinkers because that's not 'sexy'. You hear about cybercriminals. The terms has been demonized in the popular culture. I fear a similar fate for the term gamer if we do not as a community stand together and reject these connotations. I see a lot of people who say they are ashamed to be called a gamer. Don't be. Take the term back from the assholes.

I am a gamer and I welcome critical analysis of games. I am a gamer and I welcome all players regardless of age, sex, race, gender or even if they are human. These issues to me... are tangential to the core of #gamergate other than as stereotypes that are being perpetuated about my subculture.

 

[MerlinCross]

These kind of topics don't last too long(and it's just just a recent gamersgate problem) but what the heck it could be fun.

Name is Merlin, or MerlinCross if just Merlin is taken(long story). Been playing games since well, forever really. Uncle who babysat me had an NES and that got me and my family into gaming. My father would make detail maps to games like Zelda and Metroid, my mother loved tetris and Bust-A-Move on the SNES, my brother and I are the 'hardcore' playing just about any game that caught out attention and have been prilivged enough to have just about every system(Save for the fringe ones and Sega based. Poor Sega). However, PC gaming is something we've only gotten really into over the last 2-3 years thanks to having a personal computer. Before that it was a family one with only a few games to it(Heroes of Might and Magic, Starcraft, Command and Conquer, bunch of historic strategy games). So forgive me if I haven't suffered through the debates and rage that cover game forums, I'm fairly new to this.

Now onto Gamergate, why do I support it? Well to be honest I had no idea what the heck was happening. First I saw talk about Quinn getting harassed and thought nothing of it. It's the internet and Quinn is basically another Antia(For some reason) so I thought it was the same trolling/hating element that was doing it. I payed it no mind thinking this would pass in a bit and we'd be complaining about Dynasty Zelda. To my surprise, we didn't. Instead I see a bunch of 'Gamers are dead' articles spring up who's tagline could basically read as; "If you think yourself a gamer, you are bad, should feel bad, and are a blight on the industry and society". Now I didn't read all of them because they all started reading the same, but that's what I took away from that.

Now back to me for a second. I'm a geek. Dork. Nerd, wimp, beta, wuss, etc etc; basically a trope punching bag. Labels that society forced on me because I'm not strong, dislike sports, and other things that 'guys' are expected to like/do. But gamer wasn't one for a long time. "Gamer" to me meant something else, that I was part of this hobby that included everyone. That behind the character it didn't matter who you were. I meet several friends on different websites that were also 'gamers'. Friends in highschool and college, also gamers(Video and tabletop) And with the explosion of popularity of video games thanks to the iphone and Wii, we aren't going to close that door again.

So image my surprise that several websites attack the term 'gamer'. That anyone that uses it is a neckbearded troll that hates women(I'd love to explain that to my mother 'gamer'. Wonder if she shaves daily.). That's when I started looking up on this movement, this argument. I ended up getting interested when the movement turned its attention on the journalists. And this I could get behind since this has been a problem. Guys we come to your sites for reviews, for news, for competing views. But if you're all friends quoting each other, don't we just get a bunch of bobble heads echoing each other? That's my opinion of it. Though I kinda wish this was started by someone taking a large paycheck from a AAA company. Maybe then we wouldn't have so much hate.

Oh another reason why I side with GG is because where I learned of this. From Knowyourmeme. That's right a meme site gathered more news than the news sites. Wtf guys.

I'll admit, I hate what people on Gamergate do. Stop it guys, you aren't helping. Quit going off on any one that speaks their mind. They might against us but harassing them isn't going to change their mind, and might even change the minds of neutral people into siding with them. GG has to shake the harasses and trolls out of the tree so to say. GG can change its image if it silences the more vocal outspoken members that really are just helping the other side prove their case.

Course that leads too problems with twitter, the internet as a whole, and several other problems. But I'll leave it at that.

 

[EpicMike7]

H

Pro #GamerGaters, let's start with you first.

I want you to give us a paragraph - doesn't have to be super detailed, just look at the one I did above, describing yourself. Tell us a little about you, about your likes and hobbies, enough for us to see you as a person and not an anonymous person behind a keyboard. Then, explain why you support #GamerGate - and try to be as amiable as possible, we don't want to spark hostilities here.

And then, I want you to admit and apologize for the things you know people associated to #gamergate have done that you find objectionable. Don't try to sweep it under the rug, don't try to ignore or hide it - your movement cannot grow if it's unwilling to acknowledge it's mistakes, or the mistakes of those who claim to support it.

That's my challenge to you.

I'm a 26 year old gamer from the UK, I've been in love with the medium ever since I picked up a controller and played Sonic The Hedgehog when I was 6 years old. I still enjoy video games but find myself playing them less with more time being devoted to my career and fitness as I get older, I own a PS3 and a 360 and haven't stepped into the new generation yet, largely because of the backlog of current gen games I'm yet to play (still haven't played Bioshock Infinite).

I'd describe myself politically as Centre-Left and have voted Labour in every general election. There was a time when I also described myself as a feminist but feel uncomfortable with the term due some rather unpleasant views from a minority of feminists. I still firmly believe in equality and am completely against discrimination and prejudice.

I am pro #gamergate.

I noticed several years ago a highly biased agenda seeping into video games journalism, writers would stir up a moral panic over highly trivial issues in the name of gender and race politics. A disproportionate amount of site space was dedicated to these fabricated morale outrages and when people commented on this, they were browbeaten and shamed by the supposed pro-diversity champions. I despaired as Anita Sarkeesian [redacted] became the champion of this movement. It was around this time I became aware of the term Social Justice Warrior.

Fast forward to several weeks ago, when the Zoe Quinn 'Five Guys' story broke. I found it somewhat perplexing that so much fuss was made about an obscure indie developer and her sexual escapades, but then one by one over the coming weeks more information claim to light and the pieces fell into place. The rampant cronyism between games journalism and the SJW indie scene was exposed, a bunch of pals hanging out with each other, echoing their narrow minded views and patting themselves on the back about how righteous they are. This was annoying in itself, but then I watched them go on the attack and print a horde of "gamers are dead" articles in a blatantly coordinated effort to demonise their critics. I wasn't gonna let this stand, so here I am in camp #gamergate.

However, though I will happily condemn anyone on the #gamergate side who has harassed, threatened or bullied anyone over the past few weeks I will not apologise for them because I have never perpetrated such actions. I'm not responsible for their or anyone elses actions, except my own.

 

[Sethran]

Wow, this worked better than I thought it would - I honestly thought most people would ignore it, but turn away to do some gamin' for a little bit and come back to a lot more responses!

First off, thanks to everyone for posting - even the cynic-goblin in your head, Rex.

Now down to bid'niss - and I hope nobody posts before I finish this one.

Calbeck, I'm glad you explained it the way you did; it sheds a lot of light on the mindset of the informed #GamerGate activist, which is something we don't see a lot of in the essay-spewing rhetoric that populates forums regarding this.

Shrekfan, your history sounds disturbingly like my own. My wife battles chronic depression and I'm fighting right there with her, so I understand what you've gone through and you have my support. She's actually just recently gone off her medication so we can try and have a child, but we're making it work day by day.

You also present a very well reasoned argument both pro and anti gamergate, which I respect and which is what this entire thread is about.

Rex, again with people copying my personal history down. Stop it! But seriously, It's very adult of you to be able to admit where you personally went wrong in the debate, and I certainly appreciate it, and I hope others do as well. Now don't get bogged down because some folks don't see what they should apologize for, that's not the point of this exercise. Let the cynic-goblin rest a little.

Jestercup, I thank you whole heartedly for your post - I'm thankful that this discussion is, thus far, being so positive.

Tohu, you (literally) took the words right out of my mouth. Thank you for participating, even though I know how hard it is to get off that fence when the debate is so vicious currently.

BubbleBurst, welcome to the forums and I'm honored my thread was able to be your second post. I also thank you for acknowledging that something like what Anthony did was just as much in error on the Anti-Gamergate side as anything done on the Pro-gamergate side.

GJHenry, your English is doing just fine and thank you for posting. Even though Anti-Gamergaters shouldn't keep ignoring the fact that the movement's premise has changed since it's beginning, it is still true that #GamerGate as a whole hasn't dealt with it at all. From what I've seen, it's mostly just been deflection or ignoring the problem as as whole. Hopefully, a discussion like this will help us finally move beyond the sins of the past.

Irick, I like this idea too - thanks for your sentiment. I'm looking forward to playing Wasteland 2 when I can afford to pick it up, glad to hear such a glowing review. As we've sen, even people who are Anti-Gamergate are pro transparency in journalism, it is an admirable goal. From what I can tell, though, the fighting with #Gamergate as a movement is the refusal to acknowledge the wrongs they've done in the name of that goal. Still, maybe in this thread we can break past that and finally acknowledge what Gamergate has become rather than what it has been.

Merlin, you know until a short while ago I didn't even know that websites did the attack on gamer articles - I really wasn't paying that much attention, just like you. I'm glad we both finally figured out what was going on, and I'm also happy to see you have the clarity of mind to see that just because you disagree with someone doesn't mean you should attack them.

EpicMike, Appropriate use of meme. Bioshock infinite is a really fun game, if you're into that kind of game you should definitely ty to pick it up. I appreciate your candid explanation of why you support #GamerGate, but remember we're trying to keep this a low-hostility thread; Regardless of how you feel about Anita, disparaging her only makes her more relevant.


Again, thanks to everyone for posting - and I look forward to reading more if more folks decide they want to accept the challenge.

 

[Irick]

Irick, I like this idea too - thanks for your sentiment. I'm looking forward to playing Wasteland 2 when I can afford to pick it up, glad to hear such a glowing review. As we've sen, even people who are Anti-Gamergate are pro transparency in journalism, it is an admirable goal. From what I can tell, though, the fighting with #Gamergate as a movement is the refusal to acknowledge the wrongs they've done in the name of that goal. Still, maybe in this thread we can break past that and finally acknowledge what Gamergate has become rather than what it has been.

Well, I do have to ask: why do we need to address the fringe elements of either end of the spectrum?
I don't think people who oppose my views are irrational, hate spewing individuals. I think they have different views. There may be a lack of communication on both sides of this issue. I think that honestly, in the interest of moving the discussion forward we should be ignoring people who say obviously inflammatory things.

There is real, honest misogyny out there. It's a horrible thing, and it should be ostracized when found. And there are real, rabily politically correct people out there, who will jump at the chance to sanitise just about any idea that doesn't mesh with their world view. Both of these groups are bigots. We can't engage them on an intellectual level. We can't gain anything from their outrage. They are the noise in the signal to noise ratio of these discussions. We need to filter them out and confine ourselves to addressing each other on equal terms. This is the only way we will find any sort of resolution to the issues both sides have with the situation.

It's not unreasonable to say that there are bigots on either side of this debate, but I see it as a moot point. I'm not going to argue, for instance that BubbleBurst is wrong in their opinions because there are hateful people who also claim to be anti-gamergate. It might be hard for me to engage if all I see is hateful people... but I don't. Threads like this really demonstrate that.

I mean, look at what people are mostly addressing on each side. The Gamergate people are espousing mainly journalism ethics, saying that there is a lack of it and saying it's generally good. My second point (gamer being corrupted) comes up a bit, but those who are posting here seem principally concerned with journalism. The anti gamergate side doesn't seem to disagree with the fundamental points very directly, at least not in this thread.

The only thing preventing progress here is this association. So, here i disagree with BubbleBurst. I don't think we need to address the problem posters within either camp. I don't think that their position is in any was representative enough to even discuss. They are bigots, we are not. The bigots will not abide to an expanding definition of gamer, I will not abide to a hyper-specific definition that excludes all of the good in the community.

This doesn't have to be an us vs them thing. We can be inclusive, we can address the concerns of everyone and we can make our community better for it. We just have to be able to rise above petty party politics and be committed to the goal. Open discussion is the name of the game, we've just got to learn how to ignore the idiots who just want to derail it.

 

[R0guy]

And then, I want you to admit and apologize for the things you know people associated to #gamergate have done that you find objectionable. Don't try to sweep it under the rug, don't try to ignore or hide it - your movement cannot grow if it's unwilling to acknowledge it's mistakes, or the mistakes of those who claim to support it.
(...)
Then, I want you to admit and apologize for the things you know people who are anti-#gamergate have done that you find objectionable. You know they exist, just as much as the opposite exists. And just like how #GamerGate can't progress if it ignores the worst aspects of it, neither can your side of the argument.

Sorry to rain on your parade but these parts are completely assinine. Condemning? Sure. But apologising?

I am an individual. I don't apologize for any real or perceived fault of my peers, who arn't under my direct responsability, may they be political, musical, religious (or non-religious), ethnic, sexual or anything else. Nor do I accept others apologizing for my own views or my own identity, that's for me to do, and me alone.

People expecting otherwise are guilty of committing a Hasty Generalisation Fallacy which only serves, IMHO, to validate the prejudices and bias of the weak-minded. That goes for both sides here, #GG and anti-#GG.

Hasty Generalisation Fallacy
Explanation
A hasty generalisation draws a general rule from a single, perhaps atypical, case. It is the reverse of a sweeping generalisation.
Example
(1) My Christian / atheist neighbour is a real grouch.
Therefore:
(2) Christians / atheists are grouches.
This argument takes an individual case of a Christian or atheist, and draws a general rule from it, assuming that all Christians or atheists are like the neighbour.
The conclusion that it reaches hasn?t been demonstrated, because it may well be that the neighbour is not a typical Christian or atheist, and that the conclusion drawn is false.

/end rant.

 

[Jesterscup]

The only thing preventing progress here is this association. So, here i disagree with BubbleBurst. I don't think we need to address the problem posters within either camp. I don't think that their position is in any was representative enough to even discuss. They are bigots, we are not. The bigots will not abide to an expanding definition of gamer, I will not abide to a hyper-specific definition that excludes all of the good in the community.

Sorry to rain on your parade but these parts are completely assinine. Condemning? Sure. But apologising?

I am an individual. I don't apologize for any real or perceived fault of my peers, who arn't under my direct responsability, may they be political, musical, religious (or non-religious), ethnic, sexual or anything else. Nor do I accept others apologizing for my own views or my own identity, that's for me to do, and me alone.

Touchy subject, But I'd like to weigh in, if i may:

@Irick : I have to disagree. From my point of view we shouldn't ignore those voices within our own camp ( whichever camp that is) that are "problem posters", we should stand up and be counted as not agreeing, and state that their views are NOT representative. Couldn't silence be interpreted as tacit agreement?

@R0guy : yes you are, but by the same point when you take a side and speak, aren't you also speaking for that side/group? Perhaps you yourself have nothing to apologise for, but hell I apologise for people all the time who aren't me, people who also represent things that I represent, I'm not apologising on behalf of that person, but because I believe that their view is not that of 'the cause' ( whatever that may be), and I'm apologising as a representative of that cause.

 

[tehweave]

Pro #GamerGaters, let's start with you first.

I want you to give us a paragraph - doesn't have to be super detailed, just look at the one I did above, describing yourself. Tell us a little about you, about your likes and hobbies, enough for us to see you as a person and not an anonymous person behind a keyboard. Then, explain why you support #GamerGate - and try to be as amiable as possible, we don't want to spark hostilities here.

And then, I want you to admit and apologize for the things you know people associated to #gamergate have done that you find objectionable. Don't try to sweep it under the rug, don't try to ignore or hide it - your movement cannot grow if it's unwilling to acknowledge it's mistakes, or the mistakes of those who claim to support it.

That's my challenge to you.

1. I am a recent graduate from a state University where I studied Film and Video with an emphasis on creative writing. For the past two years I have been running a satirical YouTube webseries about gamers that looks at them as animals in a nature reserve. The show toys with tropes and stereotypes, but does it in the hope that people can see gamers in a more positive light as I am a gamer myself. I've been playing since I was 6, and twenty years later, I still play on a daily basis. I support GamerGate simply because it has risen above and beyond any one individual, and is now about the corruption in games journalism and how easy it is to sway people's opinions, and how certain sites like Kotaku, GameSpot, or even The Escapist can be bought out by publishers to sling positive reviews in their direction.

2. I do, however want to apologize to Zoe Quinn. Because gamergate has moved past her and is trying to focus on bigger issues, unfortunately, she was dragged under the bus in the process. Her "sleeping around" for positive reviews was just a rumor, and it was started by her ex boyfriend, so the merit of those accusations should be shady at best. Unfortunately, they are still around and should have been discredited by now, but they're not. This does happen whenever a big issue is brought up, just like Sarkeesian had to deal with death threats and rape threats when she tried to do something as simple as talk about female tropes in video games. She opened up a discussion and started this whole trend, but her credibility and well-being were sacrificed for it. I'm sorry for the way we treat women who try and move any discussion forward, only to be thrown back because they're breaking the status quo for us. It isn't fair and it shouldn't be continued. But thank you, nonetheless, for putting yourselves out there and starting the discussions we need to have regardless.