A Challenge to Pro-#GamerGaters and Anti-#Gamergaters

Jung Frankenstein

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AvtrSpirit said:
Jung Frankenstein said:
actually takin the LSAT here in a couple days.
Duuude! Don't lose your sanity over GamerGate. It'll blow over in a few months but your LSAT results might affect your whole life. I'm sure there are better ways to relax. Play (or listen to) some music. Walk around the block. Take a nap. Just don't get involved in topics that might make you lose focus.

Anyway, best of luck for the LSAT!
Thank you for the luck, my good sir! I'm gonna need it. Actually, to be completely honest, the fact that people are having actual discussions over this heartens me greatly. I was going to be a college professor until I saw what academia was actually like (as another poster said, clique-y and basically a huge war with a hundreds of factions). GamerGate is kind of a cool story, like reading about a war, only it involves things I know and care about, if that makes sense. I read to relax though. I was reading House of Leaves, and if you know anything about that book, GamerGate is actually wayyy less taxing on the brain. Haha. I'm actually about to head out to the garage to read right now.

Again though, to bring down the mood, it's not completely a game to me either. At least not for the people genuinely being hurt. Stuff like women being harassed for simply expressing their views, I mean, it has to go to the law. Guess who deals with it after the cops are done? I have no idea which side of the room I'm gonna end up on, but I really do want to make the world a better place. Call me crazy, I think we can do that by talking it out. No loss of sanity here. I'm new to being a presence online at all, so even just nice comments back are cool, so, thanks again.
 

Irick

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Sethran said:
Thanks for the support Avtr - and for understanding.

Despite the doctoral defenses going back and forth in the thread, I'm actually very happy with how this thread has worked thusfar. When last I checked in it was only on page one, and I've learned a lot about my fellow Escapists just from reading their stories and reactions.

Again, if you don't want to post here you don't have to - it's completely fine to opt out.

So for those that have already introduced and begun the discussion, here's a question; How can we move past our grievances with one another?

A lot of the issues people have with #GamerGate is how individual members of the movement have treated others; specifically so-called SJWs, people who 'don't support' them, and people who simply ask questions. Is there a way to move past this? Or has the damage already been done and too extensively?

It seems to me that everyone is in favor of transparency and everyone is against harassment, so how do we shift focus from the harassment of the past and move forward to the issue we all want to fix? Is there even a way?

Edit: I would have kept responding to everyone, but you all just took off with the thread so much that I can't keep up. Thanks to everyone who responded though, I'm reading as much of it as I can!
We just... move on. We can do that. We must do that. These are important issues.
We have to accept that these are important issues, we have to accept that if we want to address them we have to do that. We can't expect either side to apologize for anyone under their banner, though we can certainly appreciate it when they do, or when they defend us against some vitriolic insult.

We are gamers. This is our community, these are our topics and they are important to us. These discussions have got to be happening. We need them so that we can evolve. We need them so that we become better informed. We need them so that we can get better.

I take pride in my hoby. I take pride that we are largely inclusive. I take pride that we are evolving and that our art is expanding. It's truly exciting to see what I have to say is a true golden age in games development, and I want to keep that. I want to keep our community diverse. I want to keep these principles of integrity, transparency and inclusiveness at the forefront of our minds. I want us to become better for this experience.

I hope it's not just me.

But I'll do my damndest either way.
 

Nikolaz72

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Apr 23, 2009
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Nik here, frequent poster here since 09.

I've been a gamer since I was able to walk, playing Starcraft 2 multiplayer when I was 6 (My father helped a 'lot') I've always loved videogames and I spend a large part of my life on the web.

In real life I'm a political activist and I think I could most correctly be called a feminist social-democrat social-liberalist. So quite left leaning, more than the majority of Americans so I'm not some conservative.

My beef with #Gamergate. I've been called a conservative fascist, a terrorist, a chauvinist, a relic of a time gone by as gamers were dead. Infact, to start with I was firmly in the middle. Politically I am like any SJW, but this is NOT about politics, there is no right or left. No conservatives or liberals, we have gamers and we have SJW's. And the SJWs are not fighting for the right to women having a voice, women have spoken out against their banner and been forcefully silenced countless times in the last month, no.

People on this side has been doxxed, DDosed, hacked, lost their jobs and received death threats in the -mail-, not over the internet but the MAIL. Guess which one is far more personal and would warrant leaving the house and which one is likely an overreaction?

They care not for women, they simply have their own agenda that they want to push and they're using women for it. That's why I stand with Gamergate, I'm against the misuse of women by the games media to pursue their own agendas, that being increasing their influence and relevance. I'm against the continued alienation of gamers in the games media, and I'm against the increasing corruption between these game journalists and the elite 'independent developers' This conflict has given me a glimpse into the void and what I saw wasn't pretty.

Not to mention the way they went about their insults.. The insults they used mimicked the ones used by schoolyard bullies.. Nerds, Dweebs etc. As gamers they should honestly know better than to, of all things- make themselves the jocks of the schoolyard who bullies gamers. THEY ARE GAME JOURNALISTS FOR CRYING OUT LOUD.

As for the apology.

This entire thing has me outraged, and while that is justified I do my best to not insult any individual involved in the other side, especially not escapists. At the end of the day once this conflict is said and done the escapist and our community is still going to stand, we're still going to be able to discuss whats wrong with March Madness and why Valve is superior to Infinity Ward. I don't want there to be this huge divide and the underlying feelings of hatred between users once Gamergate is said and done.

It might take a while, but I'm sure we will win. And we could even win without to level personal insults or threats against our opposition. I oppose all threats against Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian, I don't agree with the SJW's but they have a right to say what they do and they shouldn't be insulted for it- engaged? Yes, insulted- No. IF you feel like insulting someone, instead of insulting them put them on your ignore list. Sure it's better to engage them with civility than to ignore them entirely, but if you cannot then ignore is superior to insulting them.
 

Akjosch

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So ... my story.

I was born and raised in Communist Poland, almost 40 years ago. This would have been hard enough. As a kid you don't notice the oppression, the media silence and general dreadfulness much, but you do notice the fear in the eyes of the people you love, trust and admire when certain topics come up and they just go ... silent. It takes years, decades even, to understand how badly media censoring themselves for the "greater good" can screw up people, even without the mass surveillance and secret police going after dissenters. It didn't help that I was a minority (which wasn't even acknowledged at the time to exist - Silesians) and a grandson of a Wehrmacht soldier. The reflection of the very same censorship is what got me to be active in GamerGate to begin with, but I'm getting ahead of myself. When I was 14, we moved to Germany. New culture, new language I almost didn't speak a word of, new life, but in the end people are people, and what got me the most social contacts was gaming.

I've been a gamer since before I could read. I've read computer magazines since I discovered them, at about the age of 8, and even wrote a few programs on paper before I had my first computer. I've designed my first board game at about the same time. I've been gaming and programming small games for me, my family's and my friends' amusement since then, as well as modding games. I play board games, both classical like Chess and modern ones, card games, tabletop RPGs and computer games, and always will. I'm not unique in this regard in my family; even my parents, at the ages of 63 and 65, are playing what is essentially the eSports variant of the Bridge card game (Bridge Base Online); my brothers play, and almost everyone I know of my 200 or so cousins, nephews and nieces (I'm a hobby genealogist ...) plays as well. Since I've got my first "proper" internet connection almost exactly 20 years ago at the university, I also started playing with and programming for MMOs (text-only at the time, and we called them "MUDs" and "MUSHes"). This further solidified my conviction that people are just people, and sorting anyone in cupboards labelled with gender, nationality, race, sexual preference and acting differently depending on cupboard is both a giant waste of everyone's time and simply dishonest. So - I don't do that. I just play games with them, and they are gamers. They don't need to be anything else, I don't need to know anything else about them, and I don't even ask for any further details, for me to accept them. You're a gamer? Welcome.

As for GamerGate: There's been a ton of shit done and said under that label. No point denying the facts. I also feel sorry for the recipients of abuse and harassment; even the guilty ones have the right to a humane treatment. Thing is, in a leaderless movement, ultimately everyone is only responsible for themselves and can only honestly apologise for their own actions - everything else would be a bold-faced lie. And I'm ready to apologise for everything I did wrong. Point me to the tweet, post or anything by me where I was obviously in the wrong, and I'll do so readily, and will also make sure that the original is left untouched as a testament to my failings.
 

LightningFast

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Hello!

Name's Lightning Fast. Dan, if you prefer. I was "the Dawg" at some point, but I really hated that and high school is over. I'm a bit younger than all you, just starting my first year at university. FIrst game was Super Smash Brothers on the N64; played it at my cousins house when I was barely old enough to hold the controller. I'm also one of the few gamers who can say he was both the person who accidentally erased someone's save files, and had his save files accidentally erased by a younger relative at some point.

Luigi is my main man and always will be, because he is a coward who rises above his fear to do cool stuff. And in the end, is that not what being brave is all about? The Walking Dead game has very recently changed the way I look at games, and though it hasn't much gameplay of its own, I see it being used as an example of how stories can be made more impactful through player choice.

I'm going to try to tackle this from a neutral standpoint, but I'll admit in advance that the average outsider sees this more from the harassed party's point of view, simply because of the fountain of bile and shit that is the vocal minority.

GamerGate, if defined as it was intended, a movement dedicated to the betterment of ethics in games journalism and calling out of shifty practices, is positive. Nobody would be anti-GamerGate if this were the case. I don't know how many of the accusations against Zoe Quinn are true, then yeah, we need to speak out against corruption of game journalism, but I've never really heard of anyone else buying reviews with sex, so I honestly think there's other more corrupt aspects of the industry we need to focus on.

Unfortunately, the oft-hostile environment of the internet, where people are quick to judge and have but a like or two to state an opinion, those who would normally find no quarrel with each other begin to fight over slight ideological differences that could easily have been clarified in another setting. (see JonTron and Tim Schafer, and their subsequent make-up. If you haven't heard, they're teaming up to take down ISIS now.) It's become quite clear to me that the only real progress that gets done happens when forums are opened to calm and intelligent discussion, and people, even who very aggressively disagree with each other, do not resort to personal attacks. It's even happened before among the gaming community about this very goddamned subject. We saw the journalistic corruption displayed in the Dew and Doritos Incident (I'm not calling it DoritoGate, because we use gate for fucking everything and it sucks). We talked about it like civilized people, and we actually saw many voices among gaming journalism, respected mid-tier journalists, speaking out against this sort of corruption. We got their support because nobody attacked Geoff Keighley personally, and the movement was not associated with such toxic douchebaggery. And you know what? There was change. Small change, to be sure, but some. People became more skeptical of paid-off journalism, forcing the larger outlets to become ever so slightly less corrupt and shifting the focus from them to a group of generally reliable, intelligent, yet still somewhat renowned critics like Total Biscuit and Angry Joe. People who tackle these issues rationally and calmly (I was particularly impressed with one of Greg Tito's articles on the subject of GamerGate) are the ones who come out on top of this. It makes the rational people look better, it creates actual progress in the issues we're discussing, it unveils some of the corruption that plagues this industry, and it encourages healthy. Fucking. Debate.

Certain people involved with GamerGate has unnecessarily dragged in the already volatile topic of misogyny in the gaming community (which is one of the larger problems plaguing it), almost as an excuse to attack the controversial Anita Sarkeesian. I see the #notyourshield tag as having a different use, as those who violently harass people who have done nothing wrong be they man, woman, or whatever, are using GamerGate as a shield to get away with it, claiming it to be in the name of "JERNALISTIK INTEGRITY HURR DURR HURRDEYDURR". This is what GamerGate is associated with now, and I worry that it cannot be scrubbed of this reputation entirely. Can I be honest with you? Despite what directions people have chosen to take it in, I still see it as something that was initially spawned as an excuse to attack a feminist icon in gaming culture. Zoe Quinn should not have generated this level of controversy, even if she is guilty of all the things she is accused of. Anita did absolutely nothing aside from provide a harmless critique of gaming culture, which this whole debacle has only served to prove. Furthermore, the latter had absolutely NOTHING to do with this, and NO REASON TO BE DRAGGED INTO IT. Jeez... just leave her the fuck alone. Her videos aren't great, but neither are mine, and I don't receive death threats from strangers over the internet posting my personal information to 4chan.

But to say gamers as a cultural group are toxic, or that they have "died"? I consider that an attack on me and my interests. Yes, I realize it is not a personal attack, and that journalists writing these articles likely aren't even referring to the gaming community at large, rather a specific group of radical, vocal assholes, but I still perceive it as an attack on a hobby that has not only made me many friends over the years, but helped me through by angsty middle-school years. For that, gaming, I thank thee, because middle school fucking sucked. The only thing these articles do is antagonize gamers and further polarize the debate. The common gamer feels attacked, and lashes out at the indies and mid-tier journalists, some of the very same who spoke out against the Dew and Doritos Incident.

I feel like the phrase "Don't hate the player, hate the game" both applies here and at the same time is completely antithetical to the point I'm trying to make. Ruminate on this shit, and above all, FUCKING THINK. You seem pretty smart. Go outside. Play some Mario. Drink a glass of lemonade. I don't care. But if you're going to continue to try and debate this, contribute something meaningful. Please. Fucking. Think.

... I'll admit, as someone trying to be more neutral, to preaching to the choir. Yeah, of course the harassment needs to stop. Everyone knows that. Of course there's some conflicts of interest, because the line between critic and developer is so blurred in the industry. Nobody here has not heard what I've said at some point already. People looking this far into the thread instead of immediately posting "ZOMG ZOE SUX DIX 4 REVEWS HERE'S MINE: 0/10 WOULD NOT TROLL THREAD AGAIN UR FAG SJW" or "FUK U MISOGYNIST GO DIE IN FIER U ARE EVUL POISON FUCK U FUCKER" are likely fairly rational to begin with, and will either agree with me, disagree respectfully, or change their points of view if I've accidentally parroted any information that they've not heard before.

I'll also admit to having a poor work ethic and a somewhat unhealthy need to be the center of attention when I enter a social situation, but those aren't really related to gamer gate.
 

AvtrSpirit

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Sethran said:
So for those that have already introduced and begun the discussion, here's a question; How can we move past our grievances with one another?

A lot of the issues people have with #GamerGate is how individual members of the movement have treated others; specifically so-called SJWs, people who 'don't support' them, and people who simply ask questions. Is there a way to move past this? Or has the damage already been done and too extensively?

It seems to me that everyone is in favor of transparency and everyone is against harassment, so how do we shift focus from the harassment of the past and move forward to the issue we all want to fix? Is there even a way?
Now that some bridge-building is done, it's time to survey the middle ground. (Ok, I'll stop with that analogy now.)

Things we can all unanimously agree on:

- Harassment is bad. Name-calling and doxing are bad. Doesn't matter which side does it.
- Gamers are not dead. The typewriter is dead. But gamers are not.
- Transparency in journalism is gooood! It's like the strength of sunshine and the beauty of starlight... (I've been up for so long that my mind is starting to unravel. #notSarcastic #failedEnglishTwice #areHashtagsEvenCamelCase?)

Now let's discuss the more contentious issues:

- We need to question/defend Zoe Quinn. How to move on from this: Ignore her sex life completely? Stop expressing anger/sympathy for Zoe/Eron for cheating/publicising? (At least in the context of GamerGate.)

- Anita Saarkesian. How to move on from this: Is she directly relevant to GamerGate?

- From an anti-GG perspective: What the conspiracy actually is. There are many versions of this, but I would prefer one that has proof and not just inductive reasoning. I'm not a huge believer of Cartman-style "I'm just asking questions, Wendy!" #dancesWithSmurfs
 

Irick

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Apr 18, 2012
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AvtrSpirit said:
Now that some bridge-building is done, it's time to survey the middle ground. (Ok, I'll stop with that analogy now.)

Things we can all unanimously agree on:

- Harassment is bad. Name-calling and doxing are bad. Doesn't matter which side does it.
- Gamers are not dead. The typewriter is dead. But gamers are not.
- Transparency in journalism is gooood! It's like the strength of sunshine and the beauty of starlight... (I've been up for so long that my mind is starting to unravel. #notSarcastic #failedEnglishTwice #areHashtagsEvenCamelCase?)

Now let's discuss the more contentious issues:

- We need to question/defend Zoe Quinn. How to move on from this: Ignore her sex life completely? Stop expressing anger/sympathy for Zoe/Eron for cheating/publicising? (At least in the context of GamerGate.)
It's tangential at best. It shouldn't be a focus. My heart goes out to them, but it's simply impossible to discuss anything about them without attracting the worst of both sides of the debate (look how quickly the Apology letter to Zoe Quinn devolved)
AvtrSpirit said:
- Anita Saarkesian. How to move on from this: Is she directly relevant to GamerGate?
No.
She's a single voice of criticism. I welcome her personally, and I see her opinion as adding the diverse text that surround gaming. I have some criticism I could levy against her methodology but in so far as her review of _games_ is concerned, i don't care. Now, I might criticize her if she made any hasty generalizations about gamers, and I do wish she would source better in her video essays, but these are not core issues. These are just criticisms of an academic interested in the state of the art. She doesn't mean anything to me in terms of Gamergate.
AvtrSpirit said:
- From an anti-GG perspective: What the conspiracy actually is. There are many versions of this, but I would prefer one that has proof and not just inductive reasoning. I'm not a huge believer of Cartman-style "I'm just asking questions, Wendy!" #dancesWithSmurfs
I'm interested in this as well. I want to clear the air so that real discussion can take place.
 

Ncrdrg

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2012 Wont Happen said:
Anti-gamergate. I don't have too many hobbies with most of my time being out into class, political activities, or simply hanging out with friends. I am against gamergate for the following reasons:

As for anti-gamergate flaws, they've done a couple of bad things, but it has not been prevalent, and it has been targeted against the gamergate group which has abundantly sent death and rape threats to a woman for invented claims. That is not to say the movement against gamergate has only targeted gamergaters who have sent out such threats, and that is not justified. However, it is still far more acceptable, not acceptable but more acceptable, to send threats to a group based on the actions of its members than to do so to a person based on made up nonsense.
WTF man?! "It's okay, they deserved it" is all I got from that post. And "not prevalent"? We've had like 10 times the amount of doxxing and there's a death threat against a GG member every 3 days or so (that I could see). 2-3 of us lost their jobs because people called their bosses and made up shit to get them fired. Milo got a freaking syringe for christ's sake. "But hey, if I deem they're bad enough, it's acceptable." What, you really think that people that threaten Quinn, Sarkeesian and company don't feel this way too? There's no freaking excuse for it. Think about what you're saying man, you're literally excusing abuse because you don't like GG. That's not how it works.
 

flying_whimsy

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Honestly I came into this thread hoping to just read a bunch of bios and happy thoughts of gaming; there are plenty of other places to talk about all this stuff so I won't join in any discussion in this thread. I just want to share.

I'm weird. I won't bother describing myself otherwise because any labels would need clarification to a level that renders them useless. I'm also a gamer; one of my first memories is holding a controller for the original sega console and wondering what the little rubber thing in the center of the d-pad was for. I can't remember a time when I didn't play video games. Games are not central to my life, but they are a defining feature. It's a hobby and a passion that I like to share with family and friends; my fondest gaming memories all involve other people. I believe in games as art, not just as they are, but what they can be.

I've been watching the gamergate thing since the zoepost first appeared (boy was I surprised when it turned into something more than just a celeb scandal). I've always been of a social justice bent (partly from going to a liberal arts college, but mostly because I'm a pretty strict egalitarian in regards to opportunity). However, I hate censorship. Nothing makes me more angry. So from the start I was pro-gg. I've stayed informed; I read everything and keep up to date on news from both sides. The more that happened, though, the more I began to realize just how wrongly I've been treated by the social justice movement over the past decade (they actually tried to keep me from voting in the 04 election, for example). My college experience was hell due in no small part to this shit. I'm tired of being told how to think, how to feel, and that somehow just because of how I was born I'm part of all the world's evils. I've never oppressed anyone. But now here comes the games media (people I trusted) to tell me I am somehow wrong because I actually like games. Fuck. That. Noise.

I took a long, hard look at who I am and what I believe in. I am honestly different than I was when this whole shitstorm started. I may not be able to contribute much (let's be honest, anything) to gamergate, but I'm still here. I just want to play games. I want to trust my gaming news sources. And I want game devs to be free to make games that offend me.

I can only apologize for my actions, and I have done nothing wrong. I hardly speak since I don't use social media, so I let others hold the bad eggs accountable (and they do). As a whole, gamergate doesn't have to apologize for anything: we self-police and try to follow better ethical standards in how we conduct ourselves. Games media and the anti-gg do owe an apology: they have slandered and fought dirty as a group every step of the way. This is a consumer revolt and people's livelihoods are on the line, so I can understand folks on either side for going to extremes. I don't approve, but things have gone beyond the point where a simple apology and a promise to change will end this peacefully. (To give an example, I was afraid to post this because I don't want to get doxxed or added to some silverstring database, but my voice is simply too small to garner that kind of attention.)

Sorry this is so long.
 

carnex

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So, I'll take your challenge on.

My name is not a secret. Most places I register to I register as Carnex. It's my internet persona and is attached to my name in several places. I started gaming with Asteroids on arcades, my first home game I played was Hungry Horrace on ZX spectrum and from that time on, computers is where my mind really gladly escapes to from real world. Now 32 years later I still play games although now they have different meaning to me. Now they are that magic hour when I don't grab onto things to keep my life, and lives of people I support/help from sinking to the bottom. They are my link to sanity in a way.

Of all other hobbies due to personal fall I took (had to get another job and go back to school) I no longer have time for my photography, cycling or archery. All I have left is video games, my 40 ares of land I maintain and my historical swordfighing.

Also, here from time to time. Promoting what I see as sense in various topics.

I'm somwehat pro #GamerGate. I'm actually against the other side, everyone here by now knows some of my political views. Both sides have gone many places they should have stayed away from. But difference is one side has the power and other has the outrage. And I really dislike when those in power try to censor valid position. Not to mention how much I adore the hypocrisy of their position on social issues.

What I would like? Well the first part has come to fruition, to some extent. And that's exposure of their behavior. Second part is too idealistic to happen tho. And that is to launch interdependent investigation and for perpetrators to suffer professional consequences according to their transgression.

Captcha: the tribe has spoken
Capctcha, you really now ho to raise my confidence :p
 

Mahrin Skel

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I am a 43 (44 tomorrow, yay me for fighting off entropy another year) year old male. I'm a gamer, I have been a fansite operator, games journalist (way back when), and game designer, I am currently going to college full time to get a degree.

I am not really pro or anti gamergate, not as a fence-sitting way of avoiding attack (which is good, because it wouldn't work), but because I see legitimate issues *and* illegitimate behavior from both sides. I'm going to violate the terms of your challenge a bit by focusing on root causes. To begin with, you need to understand that this has been building for years, on both sides.

The "professionals" (meaning that they get paid), the game developers and the "games journalists", have been becoming more and more alienated from the overall community of gamers. For developers it is because of corporate policies that made it unsafe to participate in the community (because anything you put online could become the basis of a PR incident and cost you your job, no matter how junior you were in the project you are always seen as a representative of it). For journalists it has been a result of the professionalization of the gaming press, moving from writers who were gamers first to ones that were college educated in media studies and came into games journalism because writing jobs are scarce and nearly anyone under 30 is enough of a gamer to write about them, if they have been trained in writing.

It isn't safe for a developer to talk about games with anyone but another developer, paradoxically with a "games journalist" (because for the most part, they have been very good at protecting confidences), or with that handful of academics that are involved in gaming to one degree or another. So you've gotten an insular world of developers and writers that interact with each other far more than they do with the larger gaming community. This has led to an "us" (the professionals) and "them" (the public) division.

Now, if you're on the "professionals" side of that divide, what you tend to see from the public is the worst, the things that penetrate the walls because they were attacks. And the very worst, in both intensity and sheer volume, are those aimed at women. *Every* developer knows a woman in the business that has been brought to tears by the trolls, and many of us have known women who decided it wasn't worth it, and quit the business. So the anti-GG narrative has tended to resonate with them. On the other hand, we're *all* gamers first, most of us so hardcore that we put up with the incredibly bad conditions that go with working on them out of sheer love for the medium and the community it creates. We know that the trolls are just a minority and don't represent anyone but themselves, and holding the entire community responsible makes no sense. So except for a handful for whom the issue is very personal, developers have been staying out of it, especially since everything I said about it being dangerous to employment to be involved in the community applies in spades to something like this.

Now, the general game enthusiast recognizes the signs of this alienation, and increasingly has been deprived of a voice that represents their viewpoint, expresses their concerns, speaks to their desires. But they are also disconnected from and blind to the fears, viewpoint, and needs of the professionals (one could argue that the journalists should have been trying to bridge that gap, on the other hand nobody has been trying to get them to). They've seen that the only thing that gets through the wall is pure rage, and there's been an arms race among a subset of them to weaponize that. So when the eye of the public is directed at you, it's just an incredibly disturbing experience, especially if you don't have the corporate PR apparatus to insulate and support you. And, as I said, it takes on some particularly nasty properties when women are in the focus (not, IMO, particularly because gamers are misogynistic, but because misogynistic attacks are the most effective on women).

It is *not* hatred of gamers that is fueling most of the anti-GG side, it is raw fear. And it's not misogyny or even moral outrage over ethics that is fueling the pro-GG side, but anger that they have been disenfranchised and seem to be held in contempt by the "professionals". And just to make it really complicated, there are the trolls and pot-stirrers operating from and against both sides, trying to keep the "fun" going by preventing communication, some in pursuit of another agenda, others just because they thrive on chaos and drama.

There are only a handful of us that can even try to stand in the middle. Mostly developers that are either extremely secure in their employment, or for one reason or another don't have to worry about finding a new job for a few years. And we've mostly been taking fire from both sides.

--Dave
 

2012 Wont Happen

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Ncrdrg said:
2012 Wont Happen said:
Anti-gamergate. I don't have too many hobbies with most of my time being out into class, political activities, or simply hanging out with friends. I am against gamergate for the following reasons:

As for anti-gamergate flaws, they've done a couple of bad things, but it has not been prevalent, and it has been targeted against the gamergate group which has abundantly sent death and rape threats to a woman for invented claims. That is not to say the movement against gamergate has only targeted gamergaters who have sent out such threats, and that is not justified. However, it is still far more acceptable, not acceptable but more acceptable, to send threats to a group based on the actions of its members than to do so to a person based on made up nonsense.
WTF man?! "It's okay, they deserved it" is all I got from that post. And "not prevalent"? We've had like 10 times the amount of doxxing and there's a death threat against a GG member every 3 days or so (that I could see). 2-3 of us lost their jobs because people called their bosses and made up shit to get them fired. Milo got a freaking syringe for christ's sake. "But hey, if I deem they're bad enough, it's acceptable." What, you really think that people that threaten Quinn, Sarkeesian and company don't feel this way too? There's no freaking excuse for it. Think about what you're saying man, you're literally excusing abuse because you don't like GG. That's not how it works.
I said that its not as bad, but still bad. Gamergate is a movement based on sexist bullshit, so it is certainly less bad to attack them than it is to attack wholly innocent parties. It's still not good, but its less bad. Essentially what I'm getting at is, I'll admit my side has done bad things, but we are not on equal footing to gamergaters. Our actions and beliefs aren't based on sexism. Even if you aren't sexist, if you believe the claims gamergate is based on you have bought into fake information made popular only by sexists. Movements based on sexism are no better than movements based on racism, and they must be opposed vehemently. Death threats shouldn't come into it, but gamergate struck first in that regard and they did it to somebody who is only "involved" in all this by the lies of an ex. It's like the black panthers versus the KKK. Yeah, the panthers probably hurt some people they shouldn't have, but they did what they did to oppose inequality and oppression. The KKK, on the other hand, was an instrument of inequality which hurt only innocent people.

Needless to say, gamergate is the KKK in this analogy.
 

Thyunda

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Yo. I'm Conor McGinley, of Stoke-on-Trent, England. I am most assuredly a gamer and equally certain of staying as far away from Gamergate as humanly possible.
But let's start with who I am beyond a name and a place.

I'm twenty-two, and in those years I've lived in three different cities. At the age of 18, I finished sixth form and moved to Lincoln, where my then-girlfriend was going to go to university. We lived together for a while, but she quickly revealed herself to be utterly psychotic and I left her. A mutual friend asked me recently about our breakup, and she'd told everyone she left me because I was negative and on the Xbox too much. Interesting version of events, given that she was literally clinging onto my leg as I tried to leave. This will be relevant a little later.
Depressed and worryingly skinny I returned to Stoke and got onto an apprenticeship in customer service, after which I gained full time employment at the age of 20 as a vending attendant. There, I met some great people who really got me involved in metal music and that kind of lifestyle. Going to concerts, seeing bands, staying in metal clubs all night, it's great. I'm a social guy who finds equal enjoyment in videogames as I do going out. I do not see why the two have to be treated as distinct 'labels'.
So. Am I a gamer, despite my very busy social calendar?

Mate. I cleared that calendar on September the 9th and I haven't moved from this room since. Sure I got a house party tomorrow night, but that'll be my first break from Destiny since launch. I played the Sega Megadrive when I was very small, then the PSOne, then PS2, and then the Xbox 360. Still have a Gameboy Colour lying around with Pokemon Red in the slot. I tell all the ladies about that.

And this is where we come to Gamergate and why I cannot be bothered with it.

It's a total clusterfuck of a non-issue. Zoe Quinn's ex-boyfriend publishes some fucking manifesto online about what an awful person she is, and this actually gets people's attention? Jesus, what hope do I have? My ex-girlfriend told all my old college friends I caused a miscarriage before I left. Where's the internet campaign against me and my evils?
Oh but it's more than that, isn't it guys? It's about 'corruption'. It's about Devil Women using sex to manipulate men into...selling their free games? This is where things get unclear.
And then there's my brother - "It's a conspiracy, the Reddit admins deleted whole threads."

Is that what conspiracy means? If Reddit can't be trusted, who can we possibly turn to?

The whole thing is bloody ridiculous. And so, I'm just not getting involved. Not my circus, not my monkeys. If Zoe Quinn or her friends or Anita Sarkeesian came to my house and said "Yo can I stay here I'm scared of these internet people" I'd be like "Yeah sure I got a sofa." and then accusations would appear that they had sex with me in exchange for protection. Because they're women and that's how women get what they want. Obviously. (note: strong sarcasm content, not advisable for small children or pregnant women)
 

Aaron Beam

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Oct 12, 2012
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2012 Wont Happen said:
Ncrdrg said:
2012 Wont Happen said:
Anti-gamergate. I don't have too many hobbies with most of my time being out into class, political activities, or simply hanging out with friends. I am against gamergate for the following reasons:

As for anti-gamergate flaws, they've done a couple of bad things, but it has not been prevalent, and it has been targeted against the gamergate group which has abundantly sent death and rape threats to a woman for invented claims. That is not to say the movement against gamergate has only targeted gamergaters who have sent out such threats, and that is not justified. However, it is still far more acceptable, not acceptable but more acceptable, to send threats to a group based on the actions of its members than to do so to a person based on made up nonsense.
WTF man?! "It's okay, they deserved it" is all I got from that post. And "not prevalent"? We've had like 10 times the amount of doxxing and there's a death threat against a GG member every 3 days or so (that I could see). 2-3 of us lost their jobs because people called their bosses and made up shit to get them fired. Milo got a freaking syringe for christ's sake. "But hey, if I deem they're bad enough, it's acceptable." What, you really think that people that threaten Quinn, Sarkeesian and company don't feel this way too? There's no freaking excuse for it. Think about what you're saying man, you're literally excusing abuse because you don't like GG. That's not how it works.
I said that its not as bad, but still bad. Gamergate is a movement based on sexist bullshit, so it is certainly less bad to attack them than it is to attack wholly innocent parties. It's still not good, but its less bad. Essentially what I'm getting at is, I'll admit my side has done bad things, but we are not on equal footing to gamergaters. Our actions and beliefs aren't based on sexism. Even if you aren't sexist, if you believe the claims gamergate is based on you have bought into fake information made popular only by sexists. Movements based on sexism are no better than movements based on racism, and they must be opposed vehemently. Death threats shouldn't come into it, but gamergate struck first in that regard and they did it to somebody who is only "involved" in all this by the lies of an ex. It's like the black panthers versus the KKK. Yeah, the panthers probably hurt some people they shouldn't have, but they did what they did to oppose inequality and oppression. The KKK, on the other hand, was an instrument of inequality which hurt only innocent people.

Needless to say, gamergate is the KKK in this analogy.
Seriously. You might wanna dig up some sources that show us as the root of all evil if you're going to make such broad sweeping accusations towards us that say that you are in the moral right to attack people's personal lives over this, and that "sexism" which was, FROM THE BEGINNING about the fact that someone had slept with someone who had contributed media attention to her. Of course that was the starting point of the debate, we had no information, no knowledge. We were asking, is this improper, what exactly is going on here, and getting silenced and shut down EVERYWHERE but here.

I've lurked pretty much the entirety of this issue, and I've read and watched everything, and sure, there's always dregs who will scream threats, however, the professional counter-stance has been entirely to sling mud, dirty the waters and claim that there's misogyny, and angry woman haters over thurr. Not once has anyone in the gaming journalism scene stopped to ask why we're angry, or try to read into it, which is why you have this issue in the first place. One side, supported by all the "might" that gaming journalism can bring to bear has been delivering personal attacks, distracting topics, fake news, and absolute silence on the fact that maybe there's something deeper going on here.

I watched this happen before, only last time they called us whiny entitled nerds who don't deserve what we get, as opposed to angry, socially worthless misogynists who don't deserve to be marketed to, much less be treated as human beings. You show me where the GG side has engaged in this harassment at this level. No, I don't accept crappy twitter fights, as everyone's having them constantly. GG/AntiGG on twitter is a cluster of misinformation and lies. 64 characters will do that. But please, call us the KKK more, that does wonders for the discussion.
 

Mahrin Skel

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Sep 22, 2014
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The thing is, analogies like "gamergate is the KKK" are not useful. Does thinking of GG as the KKK offer any real potential for making progress? Or does it just "fire up the base" by throwing them red meat, and anger the other side?

You might be able to make a good case that anti-abortion positions are linked to racism, but throwing that in the face of someone who genuinely believes that abortion is a terrible thing on ethical or religious principle does nothing useful (and to hopefully avoid a derail, I'm pro-choice). *They* didn't pick a side because of some obscure political happenstance 40 years ago, and if you tell them that being "pro-life" makes them racists because the roots of their movement were racist, they're going to be pretty pissed.

And most people on the GG side of this aren't there because of ZQ. Most of them don't care about her personal life, they care about what happened in the aftermath and the way that other people (especially journalists) reacted. Telling them they have no right to an opinion because the "roots" of their movement were tainted is not going to be productive.

--Dave
 

Irick

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Apr 18, 2012
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2012 Wont Happen said:
I said that its not as bad, but still bad. Gamergate is a movement based on sexist bullshit, so it is certainly less bad to attack them than it is to attack wholly innocent parties. It's still not good, but its less bad. Essentially what I'm getting at is, I'll admit my side has done bad things, but we are not on equal footing to gamergaters. Our actions and beliefs aren't based on sexism. Even if you aren't sexist, if you believe the claims gamergate is based on you have bought into fake information made popular only by sexists. Movements based on sexism are no better than movements based on racism, and they must be opposed vehemently. Death threats shouldn't come into it, but gamergate struck first in that regard and they did it to somebody who is only "involved" in all this by the lies of an ex. It's like the black panthers versus the KKK. Yeah, the panthers probably hurt some people they shouldn't have, but they did what they did to oppose inequality and oppression. The KKK, on the other hand, was an instrument of inequality which hurt only innocent people.

Needless to say, gamergate is the KKK in this analogy.
Wow.
Just Wow.
First off, no one here who has identified with gamersgate has started anything about sexism. So that claim is unfounded. Secondly, this isn't third grade. It doesn't mater who started it. If you are going to be hateful to people just because of a label, you're still being prejudice. It's not a justifiable action. Comparing these movements to the black panthers and the KKK is ridiculously insulting to the civil rights struggle. This outright dismissal of the opposition as sexism is intellectually dishonest.

But you know what? That's fine. Seriously, it's obvious you don't want to engage on the topics. I'm confused as to why you are here in that case, but hey. While you are around do you mind being civil? Feel free to refute my points, but please do so using logic and unloaded language and analogy.
 

grassgremlin

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I'll provide my own input.

I've been playing video games ever sense I lived with my cousins and played super nintendo for that one year, and then I got a sega genesis really late in it's cycle on my birthday. The games I had was Sonic 2 and Sonic 1. At the time, I had no money to get new games and it seemed like no one was interested in buying me new games in my family . . . I was a pretty neglected child living in my grandmother's house surrounded by aunts and cousins. I didn't start living with my mother until I was 12.

I use to trade games with neighbors all the time. Streets of Rage, Street Fighter, Sonic, I was bread on the genesis and snes era. Of course, when I did move with my moms, I got brought into the playstation era with games like Wild Arms, my first jrpg and things went from there.

I never played the shooty games regularly, because I was a child born from the cartoonish anime weeaboo video games. It's what's lead to my bios against the sort of movie level AAA games that permeate mainstream because I would continue to keep to my animated "kiddy" games.

That was the insult I got. You played to many kiddie games. I didn't play enough grown up games. Honestly, it's because of those games that I became a cartoonist, albeit a struggling one.

I'm not the unlimited income types or a hedge-fun baby. I'm a gay black boy living in what ammounts to the inner city. It's where I grew up in, though I'm not to keen with staying here.

I didn't get into PC gaming until very recently, drawn in by the fact I discovered emulators in the past before I started to make some money and upgrading to steam. On PC, I could now play all the animated cartoonish games I wanted with Steam. My steam list is telling. If it has animated characters, I will purchase it.

In short, I'm far from the call of duty, gears of war, skyrim types. I bought skyrim and hated it and I was baffled by the hype destiny got.

I don't play a lot of games online because for fighters, I know I'll get eaten alive and some elitist cultures irk me. It'll get on my nerves if I under perform only for some idiot to yell at me through the mic or send me some dumb message.

Not like I cared. I avoided online because nothing to me is more rewarding the playing video games sitting next to someone you know.

Gamegate. I'm so confused by it. I really am. I've tout myself as nuetral because I seriously don't understand either side. I can't be on the side of anti-gamer gate because honestly . . . aren't video games just video games? When did we rely so much on this pretentious artistic, make a statement mentality.

As up and coming webcomic artist who's been meaning to open up rpg maker and go to town, wanna know what kind of game I want to make. Something fun. Something where you can escape from the world and smile and be happy. I don't want to make a statement. I don't want to preach this or that to you. I never been into that sort of thing.

I been told that because I'm black the gaming industry needs me to make games about my life and struggle. About how I am as a gay man. Told by a close friend who is a game dev. He says, "You're the kind of person we need." when I told him about how I struggle with my sexuality.

I never wanted to make games or anything about me, but I'm surrounded by people who demand or encourage I do. Why? Why do I have to be that narcissistic? Do you care about my story that much? Why not just care about the story of the character I create and his adventures.

My brother is always trying to be a hero. Making a difference in his community. I'm all for that. I'm all for making a difference, but that's outside my escapist hobby, what I love. I just want to be something else and do things I never could do in real life.

Why is it so tough for people who fall into my demograph to grasp that? I'm told I internalize my racism and listen to the white man too much. I'm often wishing to be more feminine, but I get people expecting me to be a certain kind of gay. I have to fall into the mass group of gay and not my own kind of gay.

The problem I see in this stuff is that you can't have a individual identity. You have to be apart of the group's identity. Just, I know for a fact with the Anti-gg crowd, I can't relate to them or their sensibility they seem to have. I have to also be uber sensitive about racism and demand to be heard and featured and seen by all. I have to put myself on display to the world.

Of course, then you have the Gamergate side. A place that seems too content with telling you you're wrong and why and destroying you. Attacking people for having a opinion they don't like. I see people try to be on there side, but not be "anti-feminist enough" it's the same thing that's on the anti-gg side. They use words like beta as much as the anti-gg side use the word "man-baby".

It's too much politics. We have extreme liberals on one side fighting extreme conservative. You can't straddle the fence you're either right or wrong. They're so stuck in their conspiracies that they see conspiracies in everything everyone. They are suspicious of everyone. The group sabotages itself. Why work with a man like Milo Yiannopoulos? He's as bad with a agenda as anyone else.

I just fucking hate politics. All I want to do is making fun escapist action adventure games? Why is my race so damn important to gaming? I don't even draw fucking humans. It's all gonna be non-human games. Outlandish stuff where you can fly and leap massive heights and stuff. You don't need my backstory, you don't need to know why I'm gay, I don't need to be championed for anything but making a fun fucking game.

Play in the playground of fun, right? Is it really that hard?
 

psijac

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Sethran said:
Pro #GamerGaters, let's start with you first.

And then, I want you to admit and apologize for the things you know people associated to #gamergate have done that you find objectionable. Don't try to sweep it under the rug, don't try to ignore or hide it - your movement cannot grow if it's unwilling to acknowledge it's mistakes, or the mistakes of those who claim to support it.
No.

Explanation: John McCain was a Prisoner of War for five and a half years. And a lot of bad things were done to him. you can read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain#Prisoner_of_war

I am Vietnamese and was born almost a decade after he was freed, I'm I suppose to accept personal responsibility for horrific things done to him because the people who did so share a label that I do? Does that mean I was under moral obligation to vote for him in 2008? That's the entire problem with Social Justice, it wants the Entire Society to be politically and fiscally accountable for the actions of a distant few. That's not justice at all, its mob rule.

You can be Christian and not be accountable for the Westboro Baptist Church
You can be Muslim and you don't owe anyone an apology for beheading by ISIS

I can probably go on and on but I have a feeling you won't get it. And somehow you think I don't get your version of "it", for not offering an insincere apology for a crime I never committed.