A few thoughts about January 6, 2021

Agema

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"My client is an idiot, but he's not a malicious idiot" is a step or two above the "it was just a prank, bro" defense. Not from a legal standpoint, but a moral one.
....
I feel like our friend is going to learn one of the harsh laws of history: If you win, it's a revolution; if you lose, it's sedition or treason.
Yes. Whilst not a lawyer, I had the distinct feeling this trial would be the easiest of slam dunks for the prosecution: as close to a "Yes your honour, I'm guilty, please take pity on me in sentencing" as it gets (unless the defendant is so stupid as to insit on pleading not guilty).

Thus the main tactic, I must suspect, is to play for every bit of sympathy and mitigation he can reach for.
 
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happyninja42

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"My client is an idiot, but he's not a malicious idiot" is a step or two above the "it was just a prank, bro" defense. Not from a legal standpoint, but a moral one.

The usual arguments to be made are not available to him, so I guess he has to respond with this. He can't argue that his client wasn't there. This is a very well documented crime. He can't argue that his client wasn't aware of what it was he was doing: there are numerous pre-raid interviews where this Shaman lays out his worldview in crystal clarity. This man really thought he was doing something on par with the October revolution.

I feel like our friend is going to learn one of the harsh laws of history: If you win, it's a revolution; if you lose, it's sedition or treason.
Yeah I mean, there is no doubt he did it. He's front and center in so many different sources of footage, saying his fucking name and everything. So trying the tack of "my client didn't do it." Is just not available, at all. So, the lawyer can only do what he can. There is actually a really interesting podcast, called Opening Arguments, where a real lawyer, and a friend of his that is mostly a comedian, but also has an interest in law, discuss various legal issues on every episode. There is one episode, just a few weeks ago I think, where the main question is "What does a lawyer do if their client tells them they're guilty?" And it kind of touches on this subject I think. As far as what a lawyer can/can't do in situations like that. And how he can 'best represent his client" , which, in situations like this, boils down to "ok so, I'm advising you to take the deal, because you're totally fucked and there is no way you're getting out of this scott free. " Whether the client takes the lawyer's advice, is another matter.
 
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CM156

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Yes. Whilst not a lawyer, I had the distinct feeling this trial would be the easiest of slam dunks for the prosecution: as close to a "Yes your honour, I'm guilty, please take pity on me in sentencing" as it gets (unless the defendant is so stupid as to insit on pleading not guilty).

Thus the main tactic, I must suspect, is to play for every bit of sympathy and mitigation he can reach for.
I don't have all the facts of the case, so I can't speculate on what the best course of action is. But I'm leaning into thinking that since this guy is dead to rights, a plea deal of some sort is his best bet.
Whether the client takes the lawyer's advice, is another matter.
I know a lawyer in criminal defense who has one of these on his desks.
 

Asita

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I don't have all the facts of the case, so I can't speculate on what the best course of action is. But I'm leaning into thinking that since this guy is dead to rights, a plea deal of some sort is his best bet.
I admittedly don't have a legal background, but the more I think about it, the more it feels like Watkins's statement is less about Chansley's defense and more that he's phishing for a deal if/when the courts pressed charges against Trump for inciting insurrection.
 

gorfias

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I read he has plead Shaman guy has plead innocent but has been denied bail as a continuing threat to the community. I'll have to research it to find out if he has a criminal background. Not sure what his grounds will be... I imagine there are multiple charges against him. Maybe the innocent plea is mostly against a charge of insurrection. How does he defend against a charge of trespass? Even if he were lured in, at some point, he had to know he was unwelcome. Did he leave immediately? Can he prove it?
 

Seanchaidh

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I read he has plead Shaman guy has plead innocent but has been denied bail as a continuing threat to the community. I'll have to research it to find out if he has a criminal background. Not sure what his grounds will be... I imagine there are multiple charges against him. Maybe the innocent plea is mostly against a charge of insurrection. How does he defend against a charge of trespass? Even if he were lured in, at some point, he had to know he was unwelcome. Did he leave immediately? Can he prove it?
Seems like a very tenuous form of diminished capacity is the argument.
 
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CM156

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I read he has plead Shaman guy has plead innocent but has been denied bail as a continuing threat to the community. I'll have to research it to find out if he has a criminal background. Not sure what his grounds will be... I imagine there are multiple charges against him. Maybe the innocent plea is mostly against a charge of insurrection. How does he defend against a charge of trespass? Even if he were lured in, at some point, he had to know he was unwelcome. Did he leave immediately? Can he prove it?
Small point, but you don't "plead innocent". It's "guilty", "not guilty", "nolo contendere" or an Alford plea, at least in the USA. The latter two are functionally guilty pleas, though an Alford plea is interesting in its own right.

A "not guilty" plea is not a binding and factual assertion of innocence. It's telling the prosecutor "prove it, nerd"
 

gorfias

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Small point, but you don't "plead innocent". It's "guilty", "not guilty", "nolo contendere" or an Alford plea, at least in the USA. The latter two are functionally guilty pleas, though an Alford plea is interesting in its own right.

A "not guilty" plea is not a binding and factual assertion of innocence. It's telling the prosecutor "prove it, nerd"
You are right, thanks. I was referencing something I read that must have used the wrong term. Never heard of the Alford plea before... reviewing. EDIT: Seems to amount to the same thing as the nolo contendere . Hmm.
ITMT: All I can find of priors is a speeding ticket. Not that this is all there is... but dang. And they're denying him "release" (no bail even set?) as he might be dangerous to the community.
 

Trunkage

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You are right, thanks. I was referencing something I read that must have used the wrong term. Never heard of the Alford plea before... reviewing. EDIT: Seems to amount to the same thing as the nolo contendere . Hmm.
ITMT: All I can find of priors is a speeding ticket. Not that this is all there is... but dang. And they're denying him "release" (no bail even set?) as he might be dangerous to the community.
I would say that he's probably seen as one of the main instigators. And the level of crime that he did is seen as high (going after members of congress.)

I hope that he's not made a scapegoat of. I could imagine McConnell or someone similar pretending that it was all his fault to protect others
 
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gorfias

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I would say that he's probably seen as one of the main instigators. And the level of crime that he did is seen as high (going after members of congress.)

I hope that he's not made a scapegoat of. I could imagine McConnell or someone similar pretending that it was all his fault to protect others
The whole thing reminds me of the Reich-stag fire. Communists set fire to a government building. It was bad. But bad enough to justify the mass murder and purge of Communists? Much as I think Communism a mass murderer ideology (until modern technology can end scarcity) did the fire deserve the ideological genocide that resulted. Same for the "great trespass of Jan. 6". What they did was wrong. But that we have some broken glass and only 1 dead (an unarmed woman a clear and present danger to no one... cept she did have a back pack... who is to say it did not have explosives in it? What are the rules of engagement in such a confrontation?) "insurrectionists" that trespassed, roamed around some, and then went home? Some insurrection. Is all the fuss about playing the victim for power?
 

thebobmaster

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In lighter news, let this be a lesson to you. If you are going to break the law, don't photograph yourself doing it. If, for some reason, you absolutely have to, don't make that photo the cover of your new rap album.

 

CM156

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In lighter news, let this be a lesson to you. If you are going to break the law, don't photograph yourself doing it. If, for some reason, you absolutely have to, don't make that photo the cover of your new rap album.

This isn't legal advice. Just practical advice.
But don't record yourself committing crimes.
And if you do, don't publish them.
For your own benefit.
 
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Seanchaidh

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This isn't legal advice. Just practical advice.
But don't record yourself committing crimes.
And if you do, don't publish them.
For your own benefit.
If you must break the law, do it to seize power: in all other cases observe it.
 

Agema

You have no authority here, Jackie Weaver
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The whole thing reminds me of the Reich-stag fire. Communists set fire to a government building.
Minor point: Communists allegedly set fire to a government building.

As the Nazi Party were at that point the government (albeit still via normal democratic principle, pre-Enabling Act) and not exactly unbiased and trustworthy, this is a claim which forever needs to be treated with a certain healthy skepticism.
 

gorfias

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Just because they failed in their plot does not mean that they shouldn't face charges for trying.
Sure, but what actually happened is so lame, I think people should have the discernment to see calling this an attempted insurrection is extreme, abusive and a selective political prosecution.
 

tstorm823

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Sure, but what actually happened is so lame, I think people should have the discernment to see calling this an attempted insurrection is extreme, abusive and a selective political prosecution.
That's because you're looking at what actually happened, not what they want to have happened. What actually happened is a bunch of over-zealous idiots rioted their way into the capitol, and accomplished nothing but getting themselves arrested. What other people want to have happened is that Donald Trump directed his personal militia to take over the US government, so they breached the building with the help of every single Republican in Congress, so now every Republican politician is guilty of treason, and they can all be removed from office so that Democrats have absolute power.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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That's because you're looking at what actually happened, not what they want to have happened. What actually happened is a bunch of over-zealous idiots rioted their way into the capitol, and accomplished nothing but getting themselves arrested. What other people want to have happened is that Donald Trump directed his personal militia to take over the US government, so they breached the building with the help of every single Republican in Congress, so now every Republican politician is guilty of treason, and they can all be removed from office so that Democrats have absolute power.
I mean, there's a congressman saying that January 6th was basically the same as any other tourist day while being on camera helping barricade the doors.
At the very least, he should be removed from congress for mental incompetence
 

BrawlMan

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I think people should have the discernment to see calling this an attempted insurrection is extreme, abusive and a selective political prosecution.
It is what it is. I make no excuses for idiotic assholes who wanted to overthrow the government. Nothing is extreme about it. They will suffer the ultimate consequences. Deal with it.