A little moral quandary for you all...

Haerthan

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Pinkamena said:
Haerthan said:
Pinkamena said:
Haerthan said:
Pinkamena said:
If such a cure (because that's what it would be) was invented, it should become mandatory for all transgenders.
I really hope you are joking. I really hope so. Because what you just said is wrong.
Don't hate on my opinion, bruh
That is hate speech what you just said dude. You have no right to force ANYONE, regardless of gender, identity, ethnicity, etc, in situations that FORCE change upon them. Otherwise you are no better than the Nazis and their genocidal ways.
Kids are forced to go to school so we can change them.
Not in Canada or America. And we are not changing kids against their will. We are educating them, math, biology, history, yada yada yada. This analogy doesn't work. But I won't debate the difference between forcefully changing people of something NATURAL and education.
 

Methodia Chicken

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insaninater said:
Methodia Chicken said:
Actually, gene therapy isn't science fiction, we can treat a handful of genetic conditions with gene therapy, so i wouldn't say it's far beyond today's technology, though we're not quite there yet, but we might be in a generation.
Well hopefully, I simply meant widespread successful treatment of multiple genetic causes in adults.
the example before birth is far more realistic.
 

Augustine

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Having it available, and affordable appears to be the most amiable way to go.
People can decide what they want do with themselves.

Having a mandate to make people do it, would be something I would oppose. Strongly.

I don't honestly see much difficulty here with this scenario.

Also, "normal" people don't exist. 'Tis a myth.
 

stroopwafel

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insaninater said:
Actually, gene therapy isn't science fiction, we can treat a handful of genetic conditions with gene therapy, so i wouldn't say it's far beyond today's technology, though we're not quite there yet, but we might be in a generation.

Gene therapy only works for quantifiable diseases with very specific target cells. Gender dissocation can't be traced to a singular genetic mutation and the brain has differentiated to this state already during early development. You'd have to genetically engineer a fetus to re-assign gender identity with the appropriate gender. That is far in the realm of speculative science fiction. After birth there is really nothing that can be done anymore, as the tissues and neurological activity have already formed. Unless the genetic building blocks can be re-arranged and reset in a live host, which is as likely as ever happening as teleportation and time travel. :p
 

Erttheking

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zumbledum said:
erttheking said:
Ok first of all, being a rapist isn't a mental condition. Second of all, at what point would a depressive person being forced to have their condition removed benefit society as a whole? Third of all, plenty of bi-polar people function perfectly well in society, no need to addle their brains.

And honestly you crossed the line into uncomfortable territory when you said "ignorant" because who gets to decide what mindset's are "ignorant" and deserve to be wiped out?

We don't live in Oceania.
If feeling the compunction to rape isnt a mental thought condition what is it? point in making someone not depressed i would of thought is self evident, they wont be depressed anymore. plenty of un medicated bi-polars? or are we not counting psychological pharmaceuticals as mind altering.
Ignorance isnt a good thing (it's a lack of knowledge) not sure why you want to preserve it and how telling people things crosses a line or why you think i want to just nuke them, it's a bit beyond me , simple explanations cure ignorance no need for invasive or extreme methods.

never heard of Oceania , see in this regard i am ignorant and unable to understand your point this not being a good thing (imo if not yours) i took 5 mins to google it discover its a 1984 reference now i understand your jab. but i don't really think education equates to a dystopian big brother future, i more see it as the panacea for such issues. Why are you so against telling people stuff or Education as its institutionally known.
It isn't a mental condition. If it was, I'm pretty sure we would've gotten it identified by this point. Point in FORCING them to not be depressed any more. What is the benefit to forcing someone to go through a process they don't want to go through? There's a difference between drugs that temporarily affect the chemicals in your body, and permanently altering the mind of someone, especially without their consent, as that's the big selling point here that you seem to be backing and I am against.

No it isn't. The thing that scares me is that people can't agree on what constitutes ignorance. Some people might argue that being politically correct is ignorant, while others

There's a big difference between teaching someone something, and conditioning them to accept a mindset. And I don't think you rewire someone's brain, as suggested in this thread, just to teach them something they didn't know. You change the way that they think. And the thing that freaks me out is that there'd be someone on top calling the shots on what people who go through the process should be thinking. And no one should have that much power. Long story short, teaching someone something they didn't know couldn't be farther away from fundamentally changing the way their brains thing, in a lab, without their consent.

When you get down to it, mentally conditioning someone without their consent is pretty much brainwashing. I can't get behind it. They WANT it? That's a different story. But you can't just force it on someone.
 

FalloutJack

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Five quotes, one thread, no waiting. God damn.

small said:
Machine Man 1992 said:
DarkRawen said:
thaluikhain said:
To be fair, guys, I'm skeptical about the whole 'They' thing, myself, but I looked up the definition to double-check. Not saying it's the total rule, because no two persons are exactly alike, just that this is what the definition states.


Brainpaint said:
^
I am both on the autism and trans spectrum (I identify as non-binary) I have a perspective unlike everyone else I know. Everybody has a different perspective and identity. There is no one standard of a "person". What would they use as a basis for the brain-rewiring treatment to re-organise the pathways to? Because everyone has their differences based on personal experiences and growth.

The idea of giving people an option to change who they've been since birth is also a pretty disturbing concept.
I know everybody here is saying that it should be up to the individual to choose but where do you draw the line on who is and isn't treated? And who else would come forward for this treatment? Left-handed people? People with more severe disabilities? Those with mental disorders like psycho and sociopaths? Would the prison system use a system like this to "correct" criminal behaviour?
Would gay, lesbian, bisexual etc people and those with illegal or socially unacceptable fetishes and desires such as paedophiles, necrophiles and zoophiles come forward for it? And then there's the idea that such people being "reformed" by this method could make some people desire it to be forced upon those individuals rather than a choice they make (a lot of people would probably want that with paedophiles) and then what? Where would THAT end?

So many possibilities with it and so many possible horrors at the same time.
Essentially lobotomising people to fit a non-existant standard could never end well even if they wanted it. Society itself would go steps backward. The problems of lack of acceptance and understanding would stop being deemed the bigot's problem and become the problem of the individual with the difference for not going through the procedure.
"They could easily get their 'disorder' cured. It's their own fault that people still attack them for it."

Also, how do you treat those that are intersex? Do they choose which binary gender they identify with and surgery does the rest of the work?

Anyway, there is a lot more to this than the element of "choice". Thankfully it's only speculation and not reality yet.
I feel as though there's a book on the slippery-slope behavior you describe. A cautionary tale. Or possibly Thee Twilight Zone. Well, we asked for a moral quandary, and this is it. How far does it go and who decides? Thank you for posting. We can only benefit from such questions and ponderings.
 

zumbledum

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erttheking said:
It isn't a mental condition. If it was, I'm pretty sure we would've gotten it identified by this point. Point in FORCING them to not be depressed any more. What is the benefit to forcing someone to go through a process they don't want to go through? There's a difference between drugs that temporarily affect the chemicals in your body, and permanently altering the mind of someone, especially without their consent, as that's the big selling point here that you seem to be backing and I am against.

No it isn't. The thing that scares me is that people can't agree on what constitutes ignorance. Some people might argue that being politically correct is ignorant, while others

There's a big difference between teaching someone something, and conditioning them to accept a mindset. And I don't think you rewire someone's brain, as suggested in this thread, just to teach them something they didn't know. You change the way that they think. And the thing that freaks me out is that there'd be someone on top calling the shots on what people who go through the process should be thinking. And no one should have that much power. Long story short, teaching someone something they didn't know couldn't be farther away from fundamentally changing the way their brains thing, in a lab, without their consent.

When you get down to it, mentally conditioning someone without their consent is pretty much brainwashing. I can't get behind it. They WANT it? That's a different story. But you can't just force it on someone.
well we have identified it we call them rapists, it may not be a pure mental condition but its certainly profile-able behavior, making it a mental issue.
we often force people to undertake treatment they don't want, a depressed person may have to be treated against there will because their condition can affect there hope so they think it wont work , there self esteem so they don't think they are worth it and their confidence so they wont be able to ask for it. My dad really doesn't want to be in the care home he is in, but as he has frequent lapses in awareness violent episodes and dementia he requires a level of care he can only get there , for his own safety and that of those around him he gets treated against his will, but still in his best interests.

there are already people "on top" with this power they are called doctors and teachers, going to school physically alters your brain your mental pathways and the way you perceive and interact with the world. its unavoidable we are physical beings all memories and skills are stored physically.

the thing is you are leaping to a conclusion that this is all some dark Orwellian state gone rampant. that isn't what i am talking about and its not what the op was talking about , that's all you. i am simply talking about the current existing mental healthcare in place in most/all modern countries ,and a perfectly normal and benign education system, which again is often against our will and not something we have any choice in. my parents legally had to send me to school.

ill agree sticking people in a lab and going Josef Mengele on their asses is a very long way away from school , but i never brought up those methods and they weren't part of the OP that's just your assumptions your trying to nail onto me.

oh and people misusing a word doesn't add doubt as to what it means, it just makes them wrong , we do agree on what ignorant means , its defined quite clearly and definitively in the dictionary.
 

Erttheking

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zumbledum said:
So this theoretical procedure can pretty much change anything? Now I'm even more against it.

There is a difference between giving someone medicine and forcibly changing the way that they think, especially when you crossed the line into changing the way that people think because they're "ignorant". Would that involve creationists too? And there's a difference between actively causing harm to someone and having a less than ideal mindset. Are we supposed to just assume that bi-polars and depressive people would cause harms to others and modify their minds before they even do anything? Because that's basically living in the world of Psycho Pass, which I can't really recommend. In cases like your father's, exceptions could be made considering he's proven himself dangerous to others, but I have to question if all the situations for this procedure would be in cases like that.

Yeah, but the thing is I've been exposed to dozens if not hundreds of teachers over my life, each with a different viewpoint and perspective. That's why schools have so many different teachers, so people don't learn in an echo chamber. What's more, there's a difference between teaching someone something, convincing them to follow a certain mindset, and forcibly and irreversibly changing a person's mind. Again, against their will.

Because the thing that keeps coming up "against their will". All of those things don't use drugs to eliminate "ignorant" behavior, which as I've stated time and time before, has a different definition based on who you're talking to. People out there think that certain political viewpoints are ignorant.

I know they weren't part of the OP, but you brought up the "ignorant" aspect. What was your intended meaning? Use drugs to beam a second language into someone's head? Because, even then, that's modifying someone's body, and shouldn't be done, and I'll say it again, against a person's will. Heck, even in schools people are allowed to not go, parent's are allowed to homeschool their kid if they think the education system isn't up to snuff. School is not forced. Which is why I'm against this. Among other things.

Yeah, everyone knows what ignorant means, lacking knowledge. The problem is that people don't agree on what knowledge people need to have to not be considered ingorant.
 

zumbledum

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erttheking said:
zumbledum said:
So this theoretical procedure can pretty much change anything? Now I'm even more against it.

There is a difference between giving someone medicine and forcibly changing the way that they think, especially when you crossed the line into changing the way that people think because they're "ignorant". Would that involve creationists too? And there's a difference between actively causing harm to someone and having a less than ideal mindset. Are we supposed to just assume that bi-polars and depressive people would cause harms to others and modify their minds before they even do anything? Because that's basically living in the world of Psycho Pass, which I can't really recommend. In cases like your father's, exceptions could be made considering he's proven himself dangerous to others, but I have to question if all the situations for this procedure would be in cases like that.

Yeah, but the thing is I've been exposed to dozens if not hundreds of teachers over my life, each with a different viewpoint and perspective. That's why schools have so many different teachers, so people don't learn in an echo chamber. What's more, there's a difference between teaching someone something, convincing them to follow a certain mindset, and forcibly and irreversibly changing a person's mind. Again, against their will.

Because the thing that keeps coming up "against their will". All of those things don't use drugs to eliminate "ignorant" behavior, which as I've stated time and time before, has a different definition based on who you're talking to. People out there think that certain political viewpoints are ignorant.

I know they weren't part of the OP, but you brought up the "ignorant" aspect. What was your intended meaning? Use drugs to beam a second language into someone's head? Because, even then, that's modifying someone's body, and shouldn't be done, and I'll say it again, against a person's will. Heck, even in schools people are allowed to not go, parent's are allowed to homeschool their kid if they think the education system isn't up to snuff. School is not forced. Which is why I'm against this. Among other things.

Yeah, everyone knows what ignorant means, lacking knowledge. The problem is that people don't agree on what knowledge people need to have to not be considered ingorant.
i get the feeling your not reading my posts, your certainly not understanding them.

"Ignorance -lack of knowledge or information."

my personal view is that a person should try to remove all ignorance , read, think , discuss. we simply should try to understand as much as we can. it makes us better.

and again using a word incorrectly doesnt change my meaning, there is no debate about what ignorance is, if you dont know something you are ignorant about it. its that simple.

minimum acceptable levels, laser beams and all the other stuff is all you , not me. they have no part or relevance to anything i said , your just hell bent on altering my narrative, and were just going in loops now , so ill bid you good night.
 
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Well here in Germany you cant be treated against you´r will (therefor its important to have a handwritten paper with your opinion on shit , like whether they should try to hold you alife or just stop the machines if you are in a long coma with braindamage, or if you would want to get fet by tubes. Also you can write about medcations and stuff.

The only reason you can be admitted against your will if you are a danger for others (and secondary to yourself) Like my mom drank herself to death, but we could not force her to become well, she just didnt want to. So if you get somebody into a clinic nd that person is an adult (and is not into it because a judge ruled that way) that person can just go if they want.

If you are unable to care for yourself and are deeply ill, like acute shizophrenia or mania, the state will speak with partners or family to determine the wishes of the ill person- if there is none the state will find a custodian.

But well, if you are sane but otherwise ill but not infecctious, ou can very much choose to not take medicine and die.
 

CaitSeith

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Machine Man 1992 said:
...Transgendered people have brain chemistry that makes them think they are the opposite gender of what they were born as....
That's a bold statement (pretty much because its only one theory of dozens). So, for the sake of argument, let's suppose this is the real cause and the cure is a 100% effective miracle treatment with zero negative side effects.

This stance treats this topic as just another sickness issue like chickenpox or something. Forcing this on peoples' throats is far more deplorable than negating them any treatment whatsoever. What would be next?