A Male on Females on Female Characters

[Something Amyss]

Don't take this as disagreement that there should be more women protagonists (Given the chance, I'll play a female, so....), but I think the major problem isn't so much whether the industry likes women or even whether or not they think men are their target audience specifically, but the fear that their bread-and-butter players are actually repelled by female leads.

At that point, it's no longer playing to the majority. It's a cost-benefit analysis, weighing the benefit of tapping one market at the risk of your main vein collapsing.

Gamers as a whole still seem to be not just male, but insecure. Individually, this may not be true, but the larger picture would point us that way. I'm pointing this out less because I think it's right, and more because a large portion of the base are already fine with money-grabbing tactics, even if they harm said base itself.

Makes it hard to argue.

 

[Saelune]

I prefer character creation myself. Let me make my own lead.

 

[Live4Lotus]

We need to get rid of characters I think...more games need to go to an RPG-style character creation system. That way, you can play as yourself, as a steroid chewing monster man, a 36-10-36 woman, or whatever you like. It should be a balanced system too...don't give the female characters +1 agility and the male characters +1 strength unless you immediately give them extra points to distribute upon starting the game. There are certain things that a good RPG will change based on the gender, such as conversation options, but it is important to be balanced here as well. If you want to make a game where the female characters can cry their way out of speeding tickets, you have to give the male characters some equal bonus. Also, you have to give the female character some non-degrading option, like slipping the cop a bribe...or just shooting the cop in the head if it is that kind of game.

 

[Xman490]

Because of this situation, I changed my GTA IV online character to a woman. Her tops options are fine (gotta love leather jackets), but her leggins and shoes options are only "whore with heels" or "fashionista with furry boots".
It perplexes me to notice few women in the prominent reviewer community-thing (such as Susan and Lisa out of you Escapist admins).

 

[bushwhacker2k]

I went to a small convention recently and I actually heard the same thing from an employee of Icarus Studios (company that created Fallen Earth), that they don't mind the overly sexual approach so much as shallow characters.

IMO, most gamers are men so a male protagonist does actually have some legitimacy, but I also agree we shouldn't pander to a specific crowd and alienate other people because we're shallow.

 

[Zom-B]

PC == Player Character
NPC == Non-player Character
PC is an erroneous term but I defined it in terms of game development so I figured the term would be taken in that context but I guess not. Also, protagonist is not the best term to use because player characters are some times not the protagonist.

Yeah, I'm not familiar with anyone ever using "PC" for player character, nor have I ever used it myself (and yes, I've played PnP RPGs for years). I couldn't for the life of me figure out what you were saying, but I knew you couldn't be talking about your computer.

Really? I hear it all the time when I'm around the PnP crowd, I used to play a bit too. It's yours it a character so its a player character. What else would you call them?

How about "my character"? Does anyone ever say, let me get out my player character sheet? Or, let me see the new player character you just rolled up? Not to mention, that as far as me and most of the western world is concerned, a PC is the computer that sits on your desk that's not a laptop and not a mac.

 

[Tonjac]

Now, I may be a young white male (even if i'm not from america).
But i find it offensive that i always have to play as a thin muscular man, when i myself am rather fat.
In the interest of diversity and equality I want more fat leading characters!!

Seriously though, while i think it is important to keep focus on equality and gender diversity in entertainment, then i find it an odd thing to get truly up in arms about.
You have a dangerous road ahead of you if your game boasts that you have a "strong female lead" or something like that, since that tends to mean that people latch on to every single fault on that character while trying to tear it apart.

Look at Maddison from Heavy Rain, a kickarse journalist who will go to any lenght to get the story. To me that just screams out "positive female role model".
But what happend to her? People got offended that she was sexualized in a few scenes, and completely overlooked the powerful positive sides of the character.

If we want true female characters in games, then we need to get better at accepting female sexuality in games too, since real life women are sexual beings as well (As are men, but that's more accepted).

The way it is now, then we allow videogame males to be sexualized, and we think that is just fine, but when a female character shows a bit of cleavage then we, as a community, get up in arms about it and call it exploitation of the character, and pretend that it detracts from the power of the female.

Remember guys, if you want true female characters, then it does include the whole package, we can't shy away from sexuality completely.

 

[Falseprophet]

I always think it is funny when someone who isn't directly affected by stereotypes is more offended than the people who are. And then more zealously defend the precised victim. So I chuckled at how Shamus is more offended at sexual pandering than the ladies at the Comic Con.

He did explain how it affects him. He doesn't like game devs making the assumption that male gamer fans think exclusively with their gonads and will buy a game based on how hot the chick on the box-art is. I tend to agree with him on that.

By extension, it also means outsiders look upon gamers as a whole as horny teenage males or immature man-children with no real taste or appreciation for things like story or meaningful gameplay, and a lot of us resent being lumped together that way.

 

[RobfromtheGulag]

Strong female leads appeal to the G.I.R.L. crowd as well. So there is a market.

 

[sleepykid]

Oh poor, benighted betas and omegas...(I include you Shamus.)

You simply don't understand (or refuse to accept the power of) economics or sexual politics. There are only three things you need to know:

1. Supply and demand.

2. What women say they want is rarely what they really want.

3. Accurate representations of females in video games would make people angry, bored, or both.

This guy has the right idea.

I like the double-standard here with the diversity posts that are always brought up. If you were to, for example, say that women aren't in videogames because most women don't really do the whole combat thing, a likely response would be "Hey now, no sexism here. Women can do everything men can do. Viva la Equality!". And yet in games, even though they doth loudly proclaim the lack of meaningful difference between the genders, they fiercely demand to play as girls.

But the whole thing is silly. People don't need to photoshop themselves into paintings to enjoy the viewing; why do the characters need to be you for the game to be enjoyable? The wonder about fiction is that it lets you get out of yourself and see things from a different light, which actually broadens your sense of self and makes it that much richer. How can people claim to want diversity while still demanding "representation"?

To put in a cliche, I wish there would be less whining about difference without a difference. Someone earlier mentioned that they really wanted a game about some minority raised by two parents who are even smaller minorities, but somehow still finding the compatibility to raise a child. It borders on nonsense. I'll make my own useless plea to developers and pretend like how much I spend holds any sway: Don't just pick random ethnic, religious, sexual, or psychological character aspects and throw 'em all together; you won't get a rainbow. All you'll do is court the neophiles, and they will never be pleased because all they want is something new, something alien, regardless of its artistic merit.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

AAA games sell on having a manly man with insane body firing a gun at some foreigners.

Change that to a woman and you either lose sales (Unthinkable) or turn her into a T&A (See Japan).

This won't change soon, and it's not just to do with a female protagonist. While nearly all visual media follows the same path, games would kill their own audience changing.

To actually address this problem, we'd need to address society and find out why it needs "Alpha Dog Gang Culture" front and centre in all it's media.

 

[mattag08]

Oh poor, benighted betas and omegas...(I include you Shamus.)

You simply don't understand (or refuse to accept the power of) economics or sexual politics. There are only three things you need to know:

1. Supply and demand.

2. What women say they want is rarely what they really want.

Your sweeping generalization really inspires my confidence in your understanding of sexual politics.

3. Accurate representations of females in video games would make people angry, bored, or both.

So you're saying that real women tend to make you either angry and/or bored? That's what I'm getting out of this. I'd love some clarification on this one thnx.

Generalizations are useful if they describe something to a significant degree to be useful (in this case the economics of game making). Publishers are not ignorant people. They've studied sales figures, focus groups, etc. to come up with what they believe their customers want. And by and large people want material they can relate to.

 

[mattag08]

3 Questions To Ask Yourself When Viewing Any Movie Or Video Game (that contains cinematic elements):

1) Is there more than one woman?
2) Do the women talk to each other?
3) Do they talk about anything other than the male characters?

How many movies or video games can you think of that pass this test?

Leslee

I assume you're making the point that there should be more situations where women interact with each other? Why is that important?

 

[Bloodstain]

Well, I am a guy, and I like playing female characters, because it's something different. It's sort-of a new point of view.

Edit:

Really what's wrong with females showing skin even as a main character. I find people complaining as much misoginistic as those who actually believe women=kitchen. Having freedom of choice means not beeing judged for what you do and not doing what it's supposed to be equal or special.

Oh, and thank you. I agree.
Although I guess not all female characters (not even most) should necessarily show that much skin. More diversity would be nice.
Anyway, the personality of female characters is more important than their looks. Just like in real life, right? ...right?

 

[Kadir]

snip

I assume you're making the point that there should be more situations where women interact with each other? Why is that important?

It's important because if you ask:
1) Is there more than one man?
2) Do the men talk to each other?
3) Do they talk about anything other than the female characters?
Almost every game and movie will pass. Females make up roughly 50% of the population yet they probably hold less than 10% of the conversations in popular media.

 

[BlindChance]

BioWare gets points for letting us choose the appearance and gender of our protagonist in Dragon Age and Mass Effect, but then they lose those points by making the default box-cover characters a couple of generic white dudes.

THANK YOU GEEZE. That exact sentiment is one I've desperately wondered about. Does it actually raise sales? Really? Can't they just have no default Shepard or Hawke?

It's worth noting that there isn't even, ala Mass Effect, a 'default to male' Hawke in DA2. You choose gender and class before anything else and you can't just say "default please". The male Hawke is no more 'canonical' than the female one, judging by the game.

So why the HECK have we got to have this huge marketing campaign built around tough rugged dude?

Edit: Also,

AAA games sell on having a manly man with insane body firing a gun at some foreigners.

I don't doubt the truth of this, which is sad as hell. But the thing is this: AAA films don't sell on having a manly man with insane body firing guns at foreign dudes. Sure, some do, but a long way from all or even most. Why the heck is gaming so resistant?

(And for my money? Part of it is a self-perpetuating cycle. We have only white men on the covers. Funnily enough, white men like 'em. So they make more games with white men in 'em. And onward and onward. Until there's a determined effort to break this cycle, it will stay this way, and only the industry side can make that push.)

 

[veloper]

Apart from

It's just that I hate being treated like an idiot. It's like a toothpaste commercial that shows a guy attracting hot young women because he switched to the advertised brand. The message I get from the advertiser isn't, "Buy a tube of our tooth-cleansing goop," but, "We think you're stupid enough to believe that strange women will be dry-humping you on the subway if you buy this product." It's hard to enjoy something if you're left with the impression that the creator thinks you're a knuckle-dragging simpleton.

which is a valid point, the rest of it isn't our fight.

Interesting fact: Bioware discovered(spied) the number of players picking the female Shep in Mass Effect was insignificant. More than 9 out of 10 picked the male lead, despite the general concensus that the female voice-over was superior. The female lead is something gamers rarely want apparently.

Here´s a parallel for Shamus:
When I´m complaining about the dumbing down of gaming and the decline of the tactical RPG, I don´t expect fans of action games to come to my aid (the opposite in fact).
So this is something I and other gamers of this nerdy minority have to do on our own.

Likewise, if the ladies want more female leads and better female characters in general let them be vocal about it and not expect guys to do it for them. It´s insulting.

 

[Voltano]

I don't even think a Bioware game (or any game with a blank character) could encourage diversity. I mean, there really isn't anything about Shepard in the "Mass Effect" games that make him stand out as an individual character unless the player commands him to that action. S/he is merely a robot/vehicle for the player in that game world, picking the witty one-liners the player decides appropriate for that situation. This is just something I've been thinking about based upon Moviebob's article on "blank characters" rant on how blank characters are not allowing us to escape well (versus a fleshed-out character), but this is just my opinion.

I find it interesting how you react to sexual pandering of women, Shamus. I'm a heterosexual male too and I often find a lot of the sex-object women in video games, Anime, Mangas, or comics to be annoying--and this is coming from a person that enjoyed playing "tongue-in-cheek" games like "Bonetown." I can definitely see why you would be offended by how these developers think sex would attract you, since I usually step away from games that just "shove in" 12-year-old sex dreams as a means to make the player feel better.

 

[GloatingSwine]

I define depth by the number of simple sentences required to adequately describe that character. Personally, I hold Kreia to be the greatest female character of all time. Observe:

You run the risk of confusing depth with breadth (a common gamer problem).

Ripley's character depth comes from examining one conflict in detail (her fear of the alien creatures versus her desire to protect Newt), rather than spreading out her character over multiple disconnected traits. Admittedly some of the detail in her motivation is in a scene only present in the Special Edition, where Ripley is told that her own daughter, who she remembers as being roughly the same age as Newt, has grown old and died whilst Ripley was in cryosleep. Her drive to protect Newt is more than just Woman = Mother, it comes from her own loss, and it's that which allows her to truly overcome the trauma of her first encounter with the aliens.

Depth isn't about having lots of surface, it's about examining motivations in detail, supporting those motivations with personal events which are likely to give rise to them, and then following through believably on those motivations.

If you try to reduce "depth" to simple sentences you will miss the very detail which grants it in the first place.