A Male on Females on Female Characters
- Thread starter Shamus Young
- Start date
Is Batman a real person?Erana said:Here's a rule of thumb for devs: If you couldn't have this character fit anywhere into your game world, and you're not trying to make something cartoony like Ratchet and Clank, you need to reconsider your characterization.
Its not about diversity, its about having real people, rather than stereotypes and charactures. Diversity would follow suit.
Moving on. I think developers tend to add this stuff, not to pander, but because they personally like it. Games built purely on sexual fan service just don't sell very well, that has been demonstrated many times. If they did, we would be on at least Rumbles Roses 5 by now, and Dead or Alive: Island Something Something 7. Game developers tend to add sexiness because they personally like it.
Nice idealistic article here, and I'm sure the world will be a better place with more diversity in videogame protagonists. But it's simply a fact that the vast majority of 'hardcore' AAA titles is played by white young males, and it's another fact that adding the option of a female or coloured protaginist costs money. And since only a small part of those minorities will keep themselves from buying a game because they can't play as someone similar to themselves, that money is better spend elsewhere.
If you (and me) want a solution to this, we'd better start lobbying for government subsidies. As long as big gamedevelopers aim to make as much money as possible (and there is nothing wrong with that), trying to convince them to do otherwise won't be very fruitful.
If you (and me) want a solution to this, we'd better start lobbying for government subsidies. As long as big gamedevelopers aim to make as much money as possible (and there is nothing wrong with that), trying to convince them to do otherwise won't be very fruitful.
I think this is more an issue about making decent characters. In the motivation poster on the first page, only a few of those are characters with personalities. Alan Wake, Nico Bellic, and Big Boss. Every other one could be the same character model.
There is something meaningful in their appearance. Big Boss is Kurt Russel in Escape from New York. Alan Wake is Stephen King.
The problem comes with some game philosophies espousing the idea that a player avatar cannot have a meaningful personality without encroaching on the player's 'immersion' and 'identification', and this causes designers to fill their games with these cookie cutter personas, which are merely vehicles for whatever excuse of a plot there is, to showcase the game mechanics. A big problem is that most white American men see themselves as tabula rasa, and thus characters, if they are defined, are defined by characteristics other than their appearance. This means we have a bunch of guys who look the same, with different characteristics. Oh, Nathan Drake is sarcastic, Dante has a dark past, Marcus Fenix has...a doo-rag. It's not enough.
There is something meaningful in their appearance. Big Boss is Kurt Russel in Escape from New York. Alan Wake is Stephen King.
The problem comes with some game philosophies espousing the idea that a player avatar cannot have a meaningful personality without encroaching on the player's 'immersion' and 'identification', and this causes designers to fill their games with these cookie cutter personas, which are merely vehicles for whatever excuse of a plot there is, to showcase the game mechanics. A big problem is that most white American men see themselves as tabula rasa, and thus characters, if they are defined, are defined by characteristics other than their appearance. This means we have a bunch of guys who look the same, with different characteristics. Oh, Nathan Drake is sarcastic, Dante has a dark past, Marcus Fenix has...a doo-rag. It's not enough.
First of all great article. But this seems like a little too much:
I am sure one could make games which allow for even more diversity then these games by Bioware, but currently these games are one of the more diverse when it comes to the main character. It seems a bit harsh to only give Bioware "points" for being pretty well in compliance with the article as a whole. Not to mention to take those points away for the box-cover character not being a minority. (Come on man. You sound a bit like you know who)
Can't resist to also point out that the support cast in both these games have allot of pretty strong female characters.
These games allow you to play as any gender or race, which in effect provides the diversity which other games lack. A lack which was the general topic of this article.
I am sure one could make games which allow for even more diversity then these games by Bioware, but currently these games are one of the more diverse when it comes to the main character. It seems a bit harsh to only give Bioware "points" for being pretty well in compliance with the article as a whole. Not to mention to take those points away for the box-cover character not being a minority. (Come on man. You sound a bit like you know who)
Can't resist to also point out that the support cast in both these games have allot of pretty strong female characters.
Shamus, I think you're a great writer, and I've enjoyed reading you for a while, but I think you're really off base here. One of the issues is that games tend to have little room for "diverse" viewpoints, since they tend to show soldiers who are overwhelmingly white 20-30 something guys (with a moderate black population). http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110308/ap_on_re_us/us_military_diversity .
The other reason is that most games are heavy action flicks. Women are slower, weaker and less durable than men, making them either unrealistically identical to men, or angering female gamers even more by being the "weak" option.
Well done games will use this to make the characters more interesting. I'll use the Resident Evil example. In the original Resident Evil, you could play as either Chris or Jill. Chris was stronger, more durable, and faster. Jill had lockpicks and more flexibility with her route. Both felt fun (Jill was the easier path by a bit), and it was a great game. Resident Evil 3 stayed with it. When you had to play as Carlos you were stronger and faster than Jill, but Jill was still the main character, even when Carlos clears out a route for her.
On the other hand, in RE5, Sheva's only distinguishing characteristic is that she's a black lefty (left-handed, I'm not going politics) that wears skimpy clothing. She is otherwise identical to the bruiser Chris, making the characters much less interesting.
Also, Persians are Caucasians too, Shamus. They may have on average different features, but their average skin coloration isn't much darker than the average American.
The other reason is that most games are heavy action flicks. Women are slower, weaker and less durable than men, making them either unrealistically identical to men, or angering female gamers even more by being the "weak" option.
Well done games will use this to make the characters more interesting. I'll use the Resident Evil example. In the original Resident Evil, you could play as either Chris or Jill. Chris was stronger, more durable, and faster. Jill had lockpicks and more flexibility with her route. Both felt fun (Jill was the easier path by a bit), and it was a great game. Resident Evil 3 stayed with it. When you had to play as Carlos you were stronger and faster than Jill, but Jill was still the main character, even when Carlos clears out a route for her.
On the other hand, in RE5, Sheva's only distinguishing characteristic is that she's a black lefty (left-handed, I'm not going politics) that wears skimpy clothing. She is otherwise identical to the bruiser Chris, making the characters much less interesting.
Also, Persians are Caucasians too, Shamus. They may have on average different features, but their average skin coloration isn't much darker than the average American.
I have the same thing, especially with games with a fantasy setting. But don't forget that there is a big difference between games where you specifically want to be someone else and games where you want to pretend that it is you who is saving the world. Let's say, the difference between Uncharted (even though the guy is awfully white and male) and Legend of Zelda.krellen said:
Secondly, a lot of people don't have too much imagination: even in the 'pretend-to-be-someone-else' kind of games, most people still want to play like someone whom they can connect with. In other words, someone white, young and male. Maybe that's not what you or me want, but it ís what most people want.
Half-life 2,[insert RPG with customizable character here], [insert any 2D/3D fighting game here].lesterley said:
I'll stop there and let you think about that one.
I do find it strange how few main characters there are that are female. Also I can't believe how few characters of different racial backgrounds there are. You get the rare black supporting character and that is about it. This situation does somewhat mirror the movie industry decades ago in terms of diversity.
Off Topic: If you are reading this Shamus.(which I doubt that you are) How did you like inFAMOUS?I go to your site frequently and usually agree with your thoughts about games and the games industry, but I am curious about what you think about one of my favorite games.
Off Topic: If you are reading this Shamus.(which I doubt that you are) How did you like inFAMOUS?I go to your site frequently and usually agree with your thoughts about games and the games industry, but I am curious about what you think about one of my favorite games.
The term player character came from the original Dungeons and Dragons. It's as close to an official term as you'll get.Zom-B said:
As to my thoughts on the article:
Page 1: Hey, what about Mass Effect?
Page 2: Oh....
She was a medic, right?Magenera said:
If that's the case then she committed a war crime. Non-combat personnel are just that: non combat. They aren't supposed to attack the enemy and the enemy isn't supposed to attack them. Of course if they have to draw their weapon in defence of themselves or of the already wounded (also a war crime to attack the wounded or knowingly attacking medical personnel) then it's not a war crime, but they do sacrifice their Geneva Convention protection.
This is assuming she was wearing a distinguishing mark like the Red Cross, though. If she was in a uniform like everyone else and wore no distinguishing marks then she shouldn't have been court martialed.
Actually upon thinking about it some more, I think the story is more complicated than you're making out here, so I can't really be sure of anything.
Edit;
Okay, I saw one of your more recent posts. It's nice to see she didn't get court martialed after all.
I won't dispute that, but it's also a term not widely used, even within the PnP roleplaying community. And as I said, across the far wider spectrum of the internet, where people are used to PC to refer to a "personal computer", PC as player character is a bit obscure.VectorZero said:
Anyway, enough of this. I wasn't trying to get into an argument with anyone, I just didn't realize the OP (that's "original poster" haha) that I replied was referring to his "player character".
Actually, I play a Night Elf female in WoW.
And a female in most RPG's. Not because I feel like I need to change genders, but because I like looking at women a lot more then looking at men.
Because men just don't attract me, and I like looking at eye candy a lot more than at a ridiculously bulging musclebound caveman. Oh no, how mysoginist! Actually I don't think there is any difference in the amount of asskicking a character can do based on gender.
But at least it gives you another reason to develop games with female leads. Because most men like to look at women.
And a female in most RPG's. Not because I feel like I need to change genders, but because I like looking at women a lot more then looking at men.
Because men just don't attract me, and I like looking at eye candy a lot more than at a ridiculously bulging musclebound caveman. Oh no, how mysoginist! Actually I don't think there is any difference in the amount of asskicking a character can do based on gender.
But at least it gives you another reason to develop games with female leads. Because most men like to look at women.
So? Doesn't make the stupid canon male Revan any more right. They made the Exile female simply to appease all the fans of female Revan, and failed completely.4173 said:
And I actually think the Exile's story works better if he's male. Kreia acts more like a mother would towards a son than a daughter.