A question about drunk legality, and holding people responsible.

[DudeistBelieve]

This literally just popped into my head as I was coming inside with pizza just now, so I'd figure I'd ask cause it just struck me as an odd notion.

When someone is drunk, we say they can't consent to having sex or signing any legal document/contract because they're not of sound mind to make that decision, yes? Like we all agree that's the case, yes?

and yet... when someone who's drunk gets behind the wheel of a car, we DO hold that person responsible for a choice they make while they are drunk.

I'm not saying that's right or wrong, I'm just asking... that's weird right? Maybe someone else with more knowledge about these things can drop a bit of science on us that can explain why, legally speaking, it's a different situation.

Maybe because before one chooses to drink one is expected to have arrangements for transportation?

 

[Zhukov]

Ohhh, you've done it now. You know exactly where this thread is going to go, don't you?

Anyway, sex can be done to you without any actual decision or action on your part.

Driving not so much.

That's the difference that I see. However I am most definitely not a lawyer.

 

[WolfThomas]

Capacity is always a very tricky ethical/legal debate. Whether it is alcohol, drugs, mental illness, cognitive decline or brainwashing by the Red Skull. At what point is responsibility still held by the person or are they absolved.

I don't know the answer. But we tend to work it out situation by situation.

 

[Ryotknife]

Well, if you drive drunk, you are endangering other people's lives

If you have sex while drunk, you are not exactly endangering the other person's life. I mean, if there was a very real threat that you could kill someone with your penis while intoxiated...

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Ohhh, you've done it now. You know exactly where this thread is going to go, don't you?

Anyway, sex can be done to you without any actual decision or action on your part.

Driving not so much.

That's the difference that I see. However I am most definitely not a lawyer.

If it does, ill have them lock the thread asap. This is genuine query, not me being a mischeivious dick or the like.

After all, I have a record of openly admiting when Im just stirring the pot.

 

[Bob_McMillan]

I could have sworn I have seen this exact same thread before...

I guess it's because you can actually prevent someone who is drunk from signing a contract or consenting to something, while you can't make sure that drunk people don't get into their cars and drive off all the time.

 

[Candidus]

This is such an easy question. Here's the definitive answer.

As long as you know what alcohol is about, you know you're about to enter a state that diminishes your faculties and impairs your judgement.

If you know ahead of time that you're going to enter this state, it is your responsibility to make sure that you do it in a way or a place where you can't bring yourself or anyone else to harm, or break any laws.

You are still 100% responsible for your actions as a drunk.

You are responsible for providing consent, so if you say yes it still means yes and if you regret it later then too bad, that's called 'making a mistake'. Everyone does it. You were not raped.

And obviously you're responsible for actions taken in a car.

And signing legal documents? Sorry, let me go back-- and this goes for unwanted sex as well: "it is YOUR responsibility to make sure that you do it [get drunk] in a way or a place where you can't bring yourself or anyone else to harm, or break any laws".

 

[DoPo]

"it is YOUR responsibility to make sure that you do it [get drunk] in a way or a place where you can't bring yourself or anyone else to harm, or break any laws".

I'd like to know if you're on the same opinion if somebody's drink gets spiked with something. Was it still their responsibility to NOT get drugged without their knowledge?

 

[NeutralDrow]

That's not a usefully direct comparison, since it changes the instigating party and potential victim(s). Yes, drugs and alcohol can impair judgment; therefore, someone who solicits you for sex (who you don't have some outstanding pre-arrangement with) or tricks you into signing something while so impaired is an asshole at best, a criminal at worst. Regardless of the circumstances of you being drunk (and there are many perfectly legitimate reasons to be in such a state), the blame lies on the person taking advantage of your state to manipulate you, and you are the victim. It's the same reason blackmail is a crime.

Unless your buddies for some reason encouraged you to drive home, driving drunk is a choice you make alone, and are therefore responsible for. The penalty is correspondingly severe because the potential consequences are so great.

A better comparison to drunk driving would be if you drunkenly attempted to force yourself on someone sexually, or make them sign a contract. Then you're the asshole.

 

[Candidus]

"it is YOUR responsibility to make sure that you do it [get drunk] in a way or a place where you can't bring yourself or anyone else to harm, or break any laws".

I'd like to know if you're on the same opinion if somebody's drink gets spiked with something. Was it still their responsibility to NOT get drugged without their knowledge?

No. I think you can rightly be argued to have made yourself more vulnerable to that sort of illegal activity, but you're in no way responsible when someone makes you their victim that way.

 

[Fieldy409_v1legacy]

Because practicality should win out over worrying about consistency in law.

 

[Zhukov]

Ohhh, you've done it now. You know exactly where this thread is going to go, don't you?

If it does, ill have them lock the thread asap. This is genuine query, not me being a mischeivious dick or the like.

Not really. You have to be drunk to the point of incapacitation before you're not of sound mind. I've only seen the "One beer, therefore rape" nonsense coming out of the US. Oh, and only when the accused is male and the supposed victim is female of course, because feminism. Thank god lawmakers around here haven't gone full-SJW yet.

I tell ya, it's really tough being right all the time.

Almost a curse of sorts.

 

[DementedSheep]

*sigh* The whole drunk sex thing is not so much for people who say yes while tipsy but for those who are so drunk they are incapable of saying no or fighting back at the time. Their lack of effective resistance is not consent.

Anyway the difference is that when drunk driving you endanger others rather than some else taking advantage of you and you should have worked out transportation before hand. You don't necessarily think someone is going to try to take the opportunity to get in your pants or make you sign a legal contract but you do know you're going to need to get home.

 

[Barbas]

I'm getting a feeling of deja vu. Didn't we have a thread like this not too far back that circled the karzi pretty rapidly?

I think that people who get drunk and drive have made the same dumb mistake as people who get drunk and decide they want to have sex, and I'd advise staying the hell away from both. Keep them in the care of one of their friends and away from the alcohol, because they clearly can't handle it.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

Simple answer? People don't like taking responsibility for their poor decision making and bad behavior, so we tend to overlook the less grievous examples...but when said behavior can literally kill someone else, the rest of society tends to take notice and doles out the harshness accordingly.

On top of that, we've got a level of nuance. How drunk are we talking here?

Black out? Consent ain't happening.

Tipsy? Come on. You're not impaired to the point where you're incapable of making decisions.

Buzzed? Fuck you, you know exactly what you were doing.

In most cases with alcohol, folks seem to treat it like it's some kind of magic juice that somehow wipes people's minds and renders them blind, deaf, and dumb.

I've been drunk off my ass. Falling down. The entire world refusing to stop spinning. Slurring my speech. Intermittently cackling and musing about existence. Engaging in boisterous banter, extremely open PDA, and public sexual acts- namely in cars behind bars or outside of lady's domiciles. I've even driven twice and I'm not proud of it in the least bit. Once because I miscalculated when a barrage of shots would hit me and the other time after being thrown out of a party by some assholes who walked me to my car and threatened me with violence (it was a female friend's husband...I did absolutely nothing, no flirting, no winking, no suggestive behavior, nothing- the guy's just a jealous jerk) if I didn't leave and leave right then and there.


At no point was I ever not aware of what I was doing. At no point did I ever stop being responsible for what I'd done.

This culture of dismissing or downright deriding the concept of personal responsibility in favor of victimization is kinda awful.

 

[Creator002]

(WARNING: Assertions based on anecdotes.)

You are still 100% responsible for your actions as a drunk.

I'm of this mind set.
I firmly believe alcohol does not make you do things you would otherwise never do.
I've never done anything ridiculously stupid under the influence of alcohol or other drugs, but I have said things I shouldn't have or been unnecessarily loud.
Basically, what I'm saying is, alcohol lowers inhibitions. It allows you to do the things you have no qualms about doing, but don't for fear of the consequences. If you would kill someone (on purpose) under alcohol, then I believe you'd do it anyway if you didn't fear the consequences.
Just because alcohol "made" you make a poor decision, it doesn't mean you weren't there behind it in some way.

 

[Thyunda]

This is such an easy question. Here's the definitive answer.

...

"it is YOUR responsibility to make sure that you do it [get drunk] in a way or a place where you can't bring yourself or anyone else to harm, or break any laws".

Definitely an easy question with a definitive answer if you haven't actually met any real people. I mean, I dunno what you're on about. I drink in a padded cell alone all the time. I call it the Drunk Tank.

Of course, most of the real, living people I know tend to drink in public or among other people. Sometimes their inhibitions get lowered to a point where they initiate something and then are no longer physically capable of continuing it. But then, of course, that wouldn't be rape, that's their fault for overestimating their ability to metabolise toxins and for trusting the people around them. I mean, those times when my friends have been a little too confident in their dancing or flirting and accidentally led someone on - oh, no, they totally deserved to be harassed over it. Their fault, after all. They shouldn't have advertised a service they weren't selling.

In case you can't tell. I'm being facetious. You, on the other hand, were serious.

It's different for driving because you become an active danger to other people. It's not about punishment, it's preventative. If you have a habit of drinking and driving, you lose your licence because you can't be trusted to make contingencies for the stupid decisions drunk-you makes, and since drunk-you is a risk to other people, the state has to make those contingencies for you. It's also different for signing contracts. Sure, it makes you more confident and therefore more likely to sign - and it causes you to trust people you probably shouldn't be trusting. You also can't read the small print when the letters are all sailing about like so many little curly boats.

 

[Amaror]

Being drunk isn't a binary thing. Your not either intoxicated or not. There's stages to it.
Drunk driving often happens when people had a small to medium amount of alcohol were they think that the alcohol was too little to seriously influence their ability to drive. And it turns out that it is indeed enough to seriously inhibit your ability to drive.
As for rape and signing contracts, these things generally happen with vast amounts of alcohol. When someone is so drunk out of their mind that they can barely walk they are not really in a state of mind were they can make sound decisions, so contracts signed in that state are invalid and consent can't be given.
No court will arrest you for rape because your partner had a single beer a few hours before giving consent and it's not unusual to discuss business contracts over dinner and wine, which still doesn't make the contract any less valid.