A series of questions to those who want change in female game roles.

Ragsnstitches

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Vault101 said:
Ragsnstitches said:
Vault101 said:
Ragsnstitches said:
She [Alyx vance]doesn't deserve to be on "strong character" lists or even "strong female" lists. You can rate her as a completely neutral/functional character or slightly above average (the average not setting the bar too high) at the very best. Again, not something that should be given a pedestal.
I agree...[b/]AND ITS OK[/b]

seriosuly..its [i/]ok[/i] that Alyx is the charachter she is, she works and fits within the Half Life 2 story....she's not a bad or sexist charachter because she's not a comander shepard for female freeman, she simply is as she is and there is absolutly nothing wrong with that

this seems to be a thing that confuses people...that its "weak or may sue" no, thats not it, for a charachter to be trated pn par with the "default" male they need to take their hits too...
Alyx is fine. I don't want them to change what she is, maybe Ep.3 will flesh out her personality and give her a more, personal, stake in the story. That will be good, thats what I want from her. But as she is she is adequate... and thats it.
no, sorry.....I was sort of agreeing with and adding to your point, because as I said this is a thing that confuses people, as for her being "just ok", I guess he is..but this is also part of the point I was making..that as soon as a female charachter comes along she has to be "the standard" or female protagonists..which is stilly because theres more than one way to have a female charachter

as for Alyx...umm a "personal" stake in the story?

1.the state the world is in its personal for almost everyone in the half life universe because "holy shit we are being collectively fucked by aliens"

2. you remember that thing....[spoiler/]the combine killed her father...thats pretty personal..and even before that she was directly involved in the ressitance..she prety much grew up in the world of half life 2[/spoiler]
EDIT: Sorry, this post got out of hand. The character of Alyx is just so interesting to me from both a technical and creative standpoint, so I went a bit far into my thoughts. All valid though.

Original Post:
Yeah she should have a personal stake in things, but compared to everyone else in the story she seems some what unaffected by it. It can be argued that she grew up in that world, but then why are the resistance fighters, some of whom are likely her age too, far more troubled by events?

Remember the 2 guys you meet before you have to cross the Ant Lion beach on foot (after the lighthouse battle with the Gunship)? When one of them dies to an Ant lion, the friend stays with the body when you leave, urging you to go on ahead because "there's something I have to do". If go back there after travelling a certain distance, you find the guy kills himself.

The world they are in is horrible. Why does Alyx not show it?

Eli has a grudge against breen and laments the ruin he and his cohorts brought upon the world. Barney is an all out resistance fighter and a well respected leader, Kleiner is a quirky scientist who takes way too much interest in the horrors that he was partly responsible for creating, but is always considering what will help others the most. Mossman is a troubled soul, who fears the worst will happen which drives her to defect, but she was determined to make amends after the fact.

Alyx? I don't know, up until "that moment" her reason for being was to aid gordon. Her presence in the world doesn't feel solid, she feels somewhat artificial, as if she was made just to aid Gordon. Now obviously, that's literally what she is, since she was made by a developer who specialises in crafting finely tuned linear experiences. But other characters don't FEEL artificial. Alyx is burdened by her utilitarian role in the story.

And they seemed to be addressing that in the Episodes, especially 2. She has so much more personality in episode 2, but its easy to still see her as a tool, created to guide the player. After the ambush, it seems like the devs finally took off the training wheels or something to that nature, and started to use Alyx as a character. When "that" event happens, we finally see the world impact Alyx... that's after 1 12 hours and 2 4-6 hour games, do we finally see Alyx becoming a feature of the world.

And I like that... I like what she is becoming. Though, we can only speculate how they address "that" event in the next title, but hopefully we see Alyx act like a character in a story and not just a functional NPC.

(Sidenote: I'm aware Alyx has "history" in the story, but I can't be the only one who feels her history is not part of the story right? Just because you can right a biography on her in a Wiki, does not mean her character works in the narrative.)

Sorry, I'm being really nitpicky. I don't want people to think I'm dismissing her, cause I really don't feel that way.
 

Lilani

Sometimes known as CaitieLou
May 27, 2009
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Matthew94 said:
The pyro is a female. Surely with 700 hours you'd know that about him?
Eh, well true enough I guess. However, it's not like the Pyro and her femininity are all over her character as much as the masculinity of the other characters is showing ;-)

ElPatron said:
Lilani said:
Perhaps CoD does seek out the college aged male, and that is why vaginas don't exist in that world.
Or maybe because people born with them are not actually allowed in most positions held by the characters.
I think in a game where you as a person can take a hail of bullets or a grenade from only a few feet away and fully recover by simply hiding for a few seconds, throwing into the mix a few females who can perhaps do a bit more than the average female is not going to shatter any "realism" than hasn't already been shattered.
 

Risingblade

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Phasmal said:
Eh, I was actually going to address your questions point-by-point, but I have realised from experience that will just lead me to a bunch of dudes quoting me telling me how super wrong I am and there's absolutely no problem no way not ever.

So, I'm just gonna say, yeah, men in games are fantasies too. Power fantasies, but they are also allowed more diversity. There are more massive muscle dudes, fat dudes, ugly dudes, short dudes.

And I'll leave some links if you actually wanna read about it instead of just argue about it.

http://whatculture.com/gaming/female-gaming-characters-as-sex-objects-is-it-time-to-get-real.php
http://mmohuts.com/editorials/mmorpg-female-character-cliches-and-why-they-need-to-stop
http://manatank.com/2011/08/reality-female-video-game-character/

My advice would be: These conversations are not going away, female gamers (and many male gamers) want more realistic female characters.
You are super wrong and there's absolutely no problem no way not ever forever.


Added my own touch there at the end :p
 

Conner42

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Jul 29, 2009
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Trilligan said:
Conner42 said:
Speaking as a guy, her statement did not offend and I didn't feel like it condemned me. It wasn't a sexist statement, she was just addressing the men who were getting offended by these criticisms, she didn't say ALL men were like this, she didn't even condemn the men who were like this.
I was speaking as a guy, myself. Lol.
And that's what I get for making assumptions...

But, at the same time, you being a guy who's saying this kind of proves my point.

I kind of think it's a gamer problem with why people are acting like this. I think most gamers are used to video games getting criticized just because they're video games. But, these actual valid discussions that aren't condemning video games that are definitely worth discussing, but, maybe this is kind of a default reaction?

I'm just speculating a little bit, I but don't think it's too far off the mark.

It's really a matter of getting people on the same page on what's being discussed.
 

Legion

Were it so easy
Oct 2, 2008
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Moonlight Butterfly said:
ElPatron said:
Yeah it's just super that they are unrealistic to pander to men and women are allowed 0 power fantasies. Like I said you are okay with it because it panders to you.
Women are "not allowed" power fantasies? According to whom? Who is stopping women from having them? Is there a law? Are people blocking women from having these characters?

Or are developers simply not wanting to make games like that?

If it is the second example, what business is it of yours how people decide to spend their money on their own products? What right do you have to say "Stop trying to sell your products to men using ridiculously overly sexualised women."?

Don't get me wrong, I find overly sexualised characters ridiculous, I find it almost insulting that some developers feel the need to plaster some pixel breasts on the cover of their games box in order to sell me a computer game. But they are not forcing me to buy them, I am not forced to sit through and watch them, and I can safely roll my eyes, ignore them and move onto a decent game that doesn't have to resort to juvenile attempts to get me to play.

So why can't you? Why are you getting so worked up about something so childish and trivial?

Because it makes women look bad?

How? The vast majority of people who play games realise they are not real, that they are not a real presentation of women. Those who don't clearly have mental issues regarding their inability to tell fact from fiction.

Because there are too many of them, and not enough decent female characters?

Yes, it's annoying, but that's what happens when a form of entertainment is sold as a product to make money as opposed to an art form designed for people to enjoy. It's not like there are many decent male characters either. Hell, I saw a topic today about "favourite characters of your own gender", and as a male I really, truly struggled. I honestly cannot think of many decent male characters, I certainly cannot think of many realistic ones.

Would it be nice if there were some better female characters?

Absolutely.

Should women be less sexualised in games?

Well if the developer wants to be taken seriously as a creator of games, then it'd be a good idea, it'd also help broaden the market seeing as there are a lot of people put off by such ridiculous figures, probably more than the amount who actually prefer them like it.

Should people demand or expect it?

Fuck no, developers should be able to spend their money on whatever the hell they like. If they want to make such idiotic character designs, to pander their childish games to an audience of horny teenagers, then that's their choice. Those of us with the maturity to not be impressed by something so juvenile can don a mocking smile at them and play games that have some thought and effort put into them.

Please understand, that I am not suggesting in any shape or form that you shouldn't want better female characters, nor am I saying that there is anything wrong with complaining that there aren't. But those complaints are no more valid than my annoyance with Gears of War taking a more cheesier angle than I think they should have done. Or Halo's lack of depth considering all of the back story they had to work with.

Yes I have the right to want those things changed, and yes I have the right to express my opinion. But I do not have the right to state that the industry ought to change to satisfy my own personal desires.

And nor do you.
 

Fappy

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Trilligan said:
Trying to bring logic into a gender thread is like trying to pick a needle out of a haystack while wearing boxing gloves.

IT NEVER WORKS!
 

The White Hunter

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Oct 19, 2011
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Fappy said:
It's a simple solution really. Hire more female writers/male writers who can actually write female characters. Also, cut back on the sex appeal in games that don't need it. Easys.
Simples indeed, pretty much what I said with the gay characters thing a while back.

Also why do the gender threads persist I thought it got old for everyone a long time ago?
 

The White Hunter

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Fappy said:
Trilligan said:
Trying to bring logic into a gender thread is like trying to pick a needle out of a haystack while wearing boxing gloves.

IT NEVER WORKS!
I find that it's more like trying to find a small piece of hay in a very large pile of needles with no kind of protective handwear.
 

Fappy

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SkarKrow said:
Fappy said:
Trilligan said:
Trying to bring logic into a gender thread is like trying to pick a needle out of a haystack while wearing boxing gloves.

IT NEVER WORKS!
I find that it's more like trying to find a small piece of hay in a very large pile of needles with no kind of protective handwear.
I'd say it's just about as painful! :D
 

The White Hunter

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Oct 19, 2011
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Fappy said:
SkarKrow said:
Fappy said:
Trilligan said:
Trying to bring logic into a gender thread is like trying to pick a needle out of a haystack while wearing boxing gloves.

IT NEVER WORKS!
I find that it's more like trying to find a small piece of hay in a very large pile of needles with no kind of protective handwear.
I'd say it's just about as painful! :D
Yup!
It's on par with trying to play Dark Souls with a mouse and keyboard =DD
 

Fappy

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SkarKrow said:
Fappy said:
SkarKrow said:
Fappy said:
Trilligan said:
Trying to bring logic into a gender thread is like trying to pick a needle out of a haystack while wearing boxing gloves.

IT NEVER WORKS!
I find that it's more like trying to find a small piece of hay in a very large pile of needles with no kind of protective handwear.
I'd say it's just about as painful! :D
Yup!
It's on par with trying to play Dark Souls with a mouse and keyboard =DD
Try playing a fighting game with a keyboard. Lord have mercy.
 

The White Hunter

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Oct 19, 2011
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Fappy said:
SkarKrow said:
Fappy said:
SkarKrow said:
Fappy said:
Trilligan said:
Trying to bring logic into a gender thread is like trying to pick a needle out of a haystack while wearing boxing gloves.

IT NEVER WORKS!
I find that it's more like trying to find a small piece of hay in a very large pile of needles with no kind of protective handwear.
I'd say it's just about as painful! :D
Yup!
It's on par with trying to play Dark Souls with a mouse and keyboard =DD
Try playing a fighting game with a keyboard. Lord have mercy.
Oh god fuck that. I suck at them enough on a controller D:

Try emulate megaman two and then control it with a keyboard. It ends in tears.
 

Fappy

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SkarKrow said:
Fappy said:
SkarKrow said:
Fappy said:
SkarKrow said:
Fappy said:
Trilligan said:
Trying to bring logic into a gender thread is like trying to pick a needle out of a haystack while wearing boxing gloves.

IT NEVER WORKS!
I find that it's more like trying to find a small piece of hay in a very large pile of needles with no kind of protective handwear.
I'd say it's just about as painful! :D
Yup!
It's on par with trying to play Dark Souls with a mouse and keyboard =DD
Try playing a fighting game with a keyboard. Lord have mercy.
Oh god fuck that. I suck at them enough on a controller D:

Try emulate megaman two and then control it with a keyboard. It ends in tears.
I have. I think I actually got pretty far if I remember correctly. NES controller is so much better :(

Try playing NES Silver Surfer on a keyboard. It's already impossible with a controller!

Oh yeah and...

 

RobfromtheGulag

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May 18, 2010
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Fappy said:
It's a simple solution really. Hire more female writers/male writers who can actually write female characters. Also, cut back on the sex appeal in games that don't need it. Easys.
I would apphend 'unrestricted by Producers' to the second sentence, but ^this, essentially.
 

The White Hunter

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Oct 19, 2011
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Fappy said:
SkarKrow said:
Fappy said:
SkarKrow said:
Fappy said:
SkarKrow said:
Fappy said:
Trilligan said:
Trying to bring logic into a gender thread is like trying to pick a needle out of a haystack while wearing boxing gloves.

IT NEVER WORKS!
I find that it's more like trying to find a small piece of hay in a very large pile of needles with no kind of protective handwear.
I'd say it's just about as painful! :D
Yup!
It's on par with trying to play Dark Souls with a mouse and keyboard =DD
Try playing a fighting game with a keyboard. Lord have mercy.
Oh god fuck that. I suck at them enough on a controller D:

Try emulate megaman two and then control it with a keyboard. It ends in tears.
I have. I think I actually got pretty far if I remember correctly. NES controller is so much better :(

Try playing NES Silver Surfer on a keyboard. It's already impossible with a controller!

Oh yeah and...



I do love to derail threads, I've done it in some very creative ways before.

I wouldn't qualify silver surfer because it's just fucking impossible anyway. I'd only qualify games worth playing =p

Maybe Batman for the NES?
 

ElPatron

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Jul 18, 2011
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Lilani said:
I think in a game where you as a person can take a hail of bullets or a grenade from only a few feet away and fully recover by simply hiding for a few seconds, throwing into the mix a few females who can perhaps do a bit more than the average female is not going to shatter any "realism" than hasn't already been shattered.
So gameplay choices = setting? In Call of Duty 4 both Al Assad, Zakhaev and his two guards die from single shots from a pistol, which means that there is a "realistic setting" and "gameplay setting". Characters like Cpt. Price/Ghost/Gaz are able to soak up an infinite number of bullets and grenades but they "die" in the games.


Vault101 said:
what does it say?.....it says "I am a Ninja...I am the shadow that you see at night.....I will strike fast and without mercy....I am the last thing you will ever see.."

No. To me it says "I am a retard for wearing a reflective headbang that can be seen from miles away. Also, my arms are not covered for some reason and I'm clearly white so my skin is pretty visible. In real life I would die in half a second."

Also, I could argue his choice in swords would also get him killed.

EDIT: still don't see the problem. One character is a retard that is powerful because PLOT CONVENIENCE and the other has tits. I haven't played the game but it sounds like they belong to the same game.


Trilligan said:
Men - stop being so goddamned offended over criticism.

[...]

unjustifiable rage any time a woman deigns to have an opinion.
Then stop being offended by videogames and stop implying things about everyone who disagrees with you.

Mortai Gravesend said:
So you're saying you shouldn't complain? Right, got it.
Let's just say that the Joker from the Aurora shooting has no cred to complain about Breivik.

Don't take everything you read to the extreme.
 

Tippy

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Jul 3, 2012
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Wombok said:
So despite being a heterosexual male with a girlfriend this only bothers me because it's distracting my non-existent boyfriend?

wat.
You find it offensive for completely different reasons than why women find it offensive - you're essentially playing the white knight, the one girls fall for because he supports feminism.