a social experiment on racism

shootthebandit

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Basically the event is run by a woman who wants white people to understand racism. She segregates them into a blue-eyed group (all white) and a brown eyed group (mostly black/asian)

She then treats the blue eyed group like shit until they realise what its like (to some degree) to be black or asian. Some of the responses are quite shocking. A lot of the white people dont want to put themselves in the others shoes and claim that they are victims too (usually victims of something within their control). A lot of people felt like they were being accused of being racist when in fact it was to point out that they are a product of a racist system

some of the reactions are stupid. A teacher refusing to accept that a young black male is 8 times more likely to be searched by the police. This same woman said "a person cut themselves and I was surprised that her flesh was pink"

I think its a good test and her methods show how groups such as UKIP or other far right "extremist" parties/groups have turned a lot of the white population in britain against the islamic population

Granted her test is designed for america where racism against black people is far more common than here in the UK but she raises a few good points at the end. She is asked "dont you think your methods could be seen as too harsh?". She replies "do you think a lynching is too harsh. She says that we see this as being harsh because we are not used to white people being treated this way
 

Atrocious Joystick

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You can´t just lift an american thing and project it onto other cultures. If nothing else neither black nor white americans can claim to be the native population of the land. They both belong in the US as much as you can say anyone who is not native american can belong in the americas. If you want to talk about relations between immigrants and natives in Europe you face a whole different situation. You must first answer the question:

"Does any human being have the right to move to a different country than their native country and expect their own (the immigrants) culture and religion to be accomodated by the natives or does he have an obligation to accomodate the native culture and religion (which does not necessarily have to mean complete abandomnet of his own culture and religion)?"

The situation in europe is not one of historical slavery and segregation. The situation in europe is ethnic tension between natives and immigrant groups, with a mix of good old fashioned prejudice and valid concerns.
 

shootthebandit

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Atrocious Joystick said:
The situation in europe is not one of historical slavery and segregation. The situation in europe is ethnic tension between natives and immigrant groups, with a mix of good old fashioned prejudice and valid concerns.
I suppose thats a good point. Which is why her test subjects didnt really understand what they were supposed to feel. If black people in the UK are perceived as white peoples equals then I can understand why a lot of people abandoned the experiment as they didnt see why they should treat them any differently

In the UK race issues are more socio-economic rather than simply black and white. Its a case of "will these people take my job?" "will my tax money support these people?" Etc

However groups like UKIP will twist these concerns into racist attitudes which is where these problems arise. We see islamic groups demonised in the media which is purely to stir up hate. Its very rare to see a positive article on islam in a newspaper
 

Xeorm

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Well, I watched 10 minutes before getting really bored with the video. My thoughts are that the UK doesn't really have the same kind of racism that the US has, and it's rather odd that they're doing this for the UK. Plus I'd hardly call it an experiment. It's an exercise built deliberately to show that racism sucks, not to test to see just how racist some people are.

Really, I'd watch more if I thought it were interesting, but it seemed like the normal reality TV drivel. Sorry.
 

g7g7g7g7

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As Britains we have trouble accepting this but it is so true, the amount of denial and opposition to her kind of says it all. That teacher was disgusting, her attitude stank and yes she is racist, not all racism is malicious most of it is just naivety or in her case stupidity.
 

shootthebandit

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g7g7g7g7 said:
As Britains we have trouble accepting this but it is so true, the amount of denial and opposition to her kind of says it all. That teacher was disgusting, her attitude stank and yes she is racist, not all racism is malicious most of it is just naivety or in her case stupidity.
The teachers attitude stunk. Considering she is an educator and should be teaching children not to think this way

However like others have said Britain isnt so clear cut with racism as it is in america. So I guess not many people actually believed racism occurs in the UK because its a lot more subtle than say america in the 50s/60s
 

Serioli

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Wiki for further information

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Elliott

So being treated as a lesser citizen sucks? Jinkies!

Does this kind of training actually alter peoples opinions, namely making racists 'see the error of their ways', or does it just result in 'Well, glad I'm white then, business as usual'?
 

Vault101

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some people can't accept the idea that their demographic is somhow (dare I say it) Privaliged over another, because they take it personally, as in they think it means "they themsevles" are inatly more privaliged or that its somhow painting them as the "bad guy"
 

EternallyBored

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Vault101 said:
some people can't accept the idea that their demographic is somhow (dare I say it) Privaliged over another, because they take it personally, as in they think it means "they themsevles" are inatly more privaliged or that its somhow painting them as the "bad guy"
People often tend to take it personally as they see it as trivializing their own accomplishments and challenges, as if their successes mean less and their problems are being dismissed as "not as important as mine".

This would largely be an overreaction or misunderstanding of the idea if there weren't factions that have taken the concept of privilege, and turned it into a bludgeon to win arguments, rather than an actual sociological concept with meaning and substance.

Many people's first encounter with the concept of privilege isn't in an academic setting where the concept is explained by an expert and given weight and context. Most laymen on the internet tend to be introduced to the concept of privilege by internet flame wars where the concept is used more as a measuring stick or score card for ignoring other peoples arguments and views. There is also a disturbing trend of people trying to quantify privilege, as if you can attach a numerical score to something like race, sex, or religion, and determine how privileged or oppressed someone is merely by how many boxes they can mark off a check list.

Unfortunately, that introduction tends to sour people on the idea as a whole, because the concept of privilege ends up being less about about examining the subtle or pervasive advantages being part of a majority or in the upper echelon of a power structure can entail, and more about winning arguments on the internet by dismissing arguments out of hand because they are assumed to be made by a member of a privileged group. Which can backfire quite hilariously on the internet when the person being accused of having privilege turns out to be part of the minority group being talked about.

Privilege isn't an easy concept to truly grasp, even if you are introduced to it in its academic form, the concept of privilege that many people are introduced to on the clusterfuck known as the internet, generally ends up with one or both sides having a completely warped idea of what privilege even is, much less being able to talk about it in a rational manner.
 

V4Viewtiful

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Britain did this years ago, I remember watching it.

From the research i've done over the years I'd say Bigotry is a more accurate term than Racist.

Racist seems a more specific would but when you know the application and nature of racism I/you learn a different perspective.

Racism is not a just a point of view, a few mean words or even violence.
It's a system, put in place by the dominant ethnic group/creed/race of the home country in order to halt the progress and development through social, educational, economically and by lawful means. I think maybe the worst is social because it is far more subliminal and it undermines any law you have, stuff like no representation or that black guy in those Shirley Temple movies and other stereotypes, or something Dave Chappelle said like comparing American money to baseball cards with slave owners on them.
Racist words or thoughts only have power with a system that enforces it.

An example of Lawful racism is in Britain in the 90s, the Stephen Lawrence case (which is still going on BTW), this young boy was murdered by police officers for literally no reason and the system protected them, the family where spied on Stephen was blamed, the investigation was even conducted to any true standard, the Lawrence family them forced a proper investigation and it concluded what Black people already knew and others assumed, that the Metropolitan police was institutionally racist and you know what they did? Nothing.
Oh don't get me wrong, they admitted the truth, they attempted new schemes for better public relations, the finally prosecuted the officers (not all being convicted) and made efforts to recruit more ethnic officers. But that doesn't solve the problem, they didn't replace or fire any of the the heads of the station in the area or those that ran the system, they expected change from the people who kept things the way things where at the time and in recent months I heard the still haven't learned their lesson. A Black Female police officer told how her higher up pressured her into making the public believe that race relations and the met where better, it's more detail in that but I don't want to write too much
My own dad as many older black men can tell you have been a victim of the police, my dad as a young man was plucked by the police one night and thrown in a cold cell, he told me it was the worst feeling in his life, he thought he wouldn't make it to sunrise as many at the time didn't

As children Primary School we thought racism was a joke, at least that's how we treated it. You can imagine as a child that kind of hatred seems stupid, the worst we ever did was make fun of our names or height.

In conclusion, anyone claiming "reverse racism", they are dumb ;) When someone says Black people can't be racist they are correct. Use bigot.
 

SonOfVoorhees

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That was a stupid video, it proves nothing and ive never seen a black person treated like that in my life. While working with the police a lot of black youth make themselves a target for searching by police due to how they dress or act. They either act suspicious or dress in gang colours or wear one glove which would denote that person as being armed - though many of them dress like that as their style. Yes their are some black people that are probably stopped for no real reason. Problem is when it comes to knife crime and gang violence it is predominately black kids attacking other black kids. When i joined an anti gang task force due to the amount of kids being stabbed and dying about most of the 34 victims were black and the attackers were black. There are lots of reasons why this is the case and being black isnt one of them.

As for racism, there are a lot of arseholes that judge due to colour - nothing will change those people. Or those that are way to PC about it that is just as racist in my book. We have some amazing black actors in this world that star in huge movies, yet people still cry racism just because a black actor plays a criminal in a tv show. When we should be judging them on their ability playing the character instead of screaming racism.

Granted white people are more privileged than black people in some ways. But i would also say they have the same chances as a white person - we all have schooling paid through taxes till 16. A lot of black people take that opportunity and become lawyers, business owners etc Others just accept they wont make it due to being black and give up trying. Maybe thats to do with remembering the issues their parents grow up in, or their grand parents. But its got better.
 

RoonMian

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Oh, we desperately need something similar to this in Germany. I didn't watch much of the video because I get physically uncomfortable because of second hand embarrassment (awesome German word: "Fremdschämen") but it attacks a root problem that's very prominent in German culture:

The infamous: "I'm not racist, but..."

If someone is a "racist" in Germany pictures in heads immediately show the shaved head, bomber jacket, combat boots, camo pants, Thor Steinar shirt wearing neonazi or maybe even directly the guy in the SA-uniform. So people say the most racist shit, put it even in books that jump onto the number one of bestseller lists like "the Muslim in general is genetically dumber than the white European" and the very second you call that shit out as racist nonsense there is much outrage and "how dare you call me racist?!? (subtext: How dare you call me a dumb fuck like the neonazis are?) and "one still has to have the right to say this!!!" and other reflexive bullshit.


There such a fuckload of racism still in so many heads in Germany (just watch at what is haunting German best-seller lists right this moment: A book called (translated): "Germany out of its mind - The insane cult about women, homosexuals and immigrants" and yes, it's exactly as bad as it sounds. And people are tripping over themselves, cheering it on) but the second you call them out they get into full blown cognitive dissonance mode.

That's something that really impressed me in the USA (was on a short student exchange in Florida once). That one kid who said "I really don't like black people." I said: "Well, that's racist" and he answered: "Of course it is." He was a collossal asshole but at least he didn't delude himself.

SonOfVoorhees said:
Granted white people are more privileged than black people in some ways. But i would also say they have the same chances as a white person - we all have schooling paid through taxes till 16. A lot of black people take that opportunity and become lawyers, business owners etc Others just accept they wont make it due to being black and give up trying. Maybe thats to do with remembering the issues their parents grow up in, or their grand parents. But its got better.
Well, I don't know where you're from but here this isn't the case. A recent study showed that in Germany people with a Turkish name see their chances to get invited for an interview after sending an application by up to 11%. And the "same schooling" bit isn't true either. In Germany we have a kind of three pronged scholar system and if your parents are immigrants the chance you get sent to the kind of school that gives you the least chances of social upwards mobility increases significantly. Also schools in socially critical, immigrant rich areas are often allowed to fall off the back of the wagon. I can't really imagine that is so different in other countries.

Edit: You just have to take a look at some of the more prominent German people in this forum and what I'm saying jumps straight out at you.

Editedit:

EternallyBored said:
Oh, this rings so true. Like you wouldn't believe it does... Cognitive dissonance everywhere...
 

Eliam_Dar

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Just watched a few minutes of the video, but let me give you my opinion.
There is always an assumption that predominantly white societies are racist, and to some extend this is true. But this does not mean that other societies aren't. Racism is a human problem, not a problem from a particular race.
I have had the unfortunately experience of being the object of racism when I was a kid. You see, I am the son of a male of Spanish descend and a German mother. My father was part of the military of our country, and he was sent to a base to the south. I was ten, and I arrived to the school the first day and I noticed that most of the other school kids were part of the Mapuche tribe. I thought to myself "No problem" since I had already gone to another school to the north with people from the Guarani people. Boy was I wrong, I got beaten everyday for the entire year, kids keep calling me names, and even some teachers justified the other kids (and I am not someone who will peacefully endure, I fought back several times... and I was the one that ended being punished).
At the end the situation got so bad (I was being attacked by more than two kids at once, even their parents started treating me like a subhuman, and constantly being harassed started to really depress me) that my father had to sent me away with my grandmother.
 

Vareoth

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Isn't it a bit of an oversimplification to say that one needs to be treated like shit in order to better understand those in an unprivileged position? I like to think that I have enough empathy and sense of justice to see that such behaviour is wrong and to adjust my actions accordingly. I'm also a tad oversensitive so I will most likely become angry or physically aggressive during such an experiment. Seems a bit counterproductive then.

Also I have never seen racism to this degree before (not to say it doesn't exist). Perhaps the experiment should be a bit more subtle (like most racism). I agree with her ideals but disprove of her strong methods that might cause entrenchment rather then understanding.

Eliam_Dar said:
Yep, to say that racism and bigotry is something else then a general human thing is just silly. Every group of people can exhibit hatred for one another for even the most arbitrary of reasons.
 

Thaluikhain

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Vareoth said:
Isn't it a bit of an oversimplification to say that one needs to be treated like shit in order to better understand those in an unprivileged position? I like to think that I have enough empathy and sense of justice to see that such behaviour is wrong and to adjust my actions accordingly. I'm also a tad oversensitive so I will most likely become angry or physically aggressive during such an experiment. Seems a bit counterproductive then.
Often you have to bash it home for people. Doesn't always work, though...a lot of passionate gay activists are convinced that bisexuals don't exist. Easy to see your own problems, not others.
 

Nooh

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I haven't watched the video and I won't argue for one side or the other, but when it comes to conversations about racism, I think a fitting video is "A Conversation About Race".

 

RoonMian

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Vareoth said:
Isn't it a bit of an oversimplification to say that one needs to be treated like shit in order to better understand those in an unprivileged position? I like to think that I have enough empathy and sense of justice to see that such behaviour is wrong and to adjust my actions accordingly. I'm also a tad oversensitive so I will most likely become angry or physically aggressive during such an experiment. Seems a bit counterproductive then.

Also I have never seen racism to this degree before (not to say it doesn't exist). Perhaps the experiment should be a bit more subtle (like most racism). I agree with her ideals but disprove of her strong methods that might cause entrenchment rather then understanding.

Eliam_Dar said:
Yep, to say that racism and bigotry is something else then a general human thing is just silly. Every group of people can exhibit hatred for one another for even the most arbitrary of reasons.
You personally may. But the thing about privilege is that people who have it don't know they have it or rather they don't notice it in their every day life. And especially in a context where the majority is so overwhelming like in most nations in Europe a person of colour can talk until they fall over on the experiences they make, a lot of white people will only believe it when you actually give a white person make up and follow him with a hidden camera. That's literally what happened here in Germany:


Black people (who are a very small minority here) talked about racism against them for years and years. And there had to be a white dude getting black make up before anybody gave a shit.
 

Something Amyss

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Vault101 said:
some people can't accept the idea that their demographic is somhow (dare I say it) Privaliged over another, because they take it personally, as in they think it means "they themsevles" are inatly more privaliged or that its somhow painting them as the "bad guy"
I kind of think that taking umbrage at being referred to as privileged is one of the earmarks of privilege. That is, that you've had your specialness threatened.
 

Thaluikhain

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RoonMian said:
You personally may. But the thing about privilege is that people who have it don't know they have it or rather they don't notice it in their every day life. And especially in a context where the majority is so overwhelming like in most nations in Europe a person of colour can talk until they fall over on the experiences they make, a lot of white people will only believe it when you actually give a white person make up and follow him with a hidden camera. That's literally what happened here in Germany:


Black people (who are a very small minority here) talked about racism against them for years and years. And there had to be a white dude getting black make up before anybody gave a shit.
Yeah, you see that sort of thing a lot. Those books about homophobia written by straight guys who pretended to be gay for a bit were really popular, much more so that gay people talking about being gay.

It's also been mentioned that a man talking about feminism gets cookies, a woman doing the same gets rape threats.