Absolutely Fed Up With The "Men only care about sex" ideology

[XMark]

I've been in situations where I was aggressively pressured for sex. While I definitely consented and enjoyed it for the moment, the fact remains that I didn't want to do it beforehand and I regretted it afterwards.

Now, I'm not going to claim to be a victim. I could have simply refused, but I didn't. I take responsibility for my actions, but I can definitely sympathize with the 43% of young men who claim to have unwanted sex with women. It's a very powerful physical urge that can be very difficult to get under control.

 

[Vegosiux]

It's not really unreasonable to say that men should do something about it when majority of leadership positions in advertisement industry, movie industry and corporate america are held by men. They have the power to change things.

No, "men" don't have the power to change things. "Those specific men, who make up a really small minority of all men", do. So I actually think it's a valid point to ask why the talk is about "men", not about "Jack, John and Clem who hold more clout than all the rest of the men combined. Sometimes Nancy, too, but she's not a regular".

 

[Cloned31]

It's not really unreasonable to say that men should do something about it when majority of leadership positions in advertisement industry, movie industry and corporate america are held by men. They have the power to change things.

No, "men" don't have the power to change things. "Those specific men, who make up a really small minority of all men", do. So I actually think it's a valid point to ask why the talk is about "men", not about "Jack, John and Clem who hold more clout than all the rest of the men combined. Sometimes Nancy, too, but she's not a regular".

I think thats a good point. I mean these companies have a large range of influence in our country and we can try to get them to change. See we are pretty lucky because we have a better chance at teaching our kids differently now then we ever had before.

 

[Uhura]

No, "men" don't have the power to change things. "Those specific men, who make up a really small minority of all men", do. So I actually think it's a valid point to ask why the talk is about "men", not about "Jack, John and Clem who hold more clout than all the rest of the men combined. Sometimes Nancy, too, but she's not a regular".

It's not about just those specific men though. The destructive/harmful ideas about men/masculinity don't just exist in the corporate boardrooms, they exist also in the general population. If we are talking about male oriented media (action movies, certain video games, ads for men) enforcing the "emotionless, sex crazed brute" ideal about men, you then have to take into consideration what role the target audience has in the issue. That's the audience those marketers care the most about and hence men should make it known if they are not ok with the marketing strategies companies use when they want to target male audiences. So also in that sense men have the power, as they are specifically the audience these ads/media tries to sway/influence.

The OP has been a bit vague about which specific companies/ads he talks about (or maybe I've missed it), so I'm not sure what examples to use

 

[Vegosiux]

No, "men" don't have the power to change things. "Those specific men, who make up a really small minority of all men", do. So I actually think it's a valid point to ask why the talk is about "men", not about "Jack, John and Clem who hold more clout than all the rest of the men combined. Sometimes Nancy, too, but she's not a regular".

It's not about just those specific men though. The destructive/harmful ideas about men/masculinity don't just exist in the corporate boardrooms, they exist also in the general population. If we are talking about male oriented media (action movies, certain video games, ads for men) enforcing the "emotionless, sex crazed brute" ideal about men, you then have to take into consideration what role the target audience has in the issue. That's the audience those marketers care the most about and hence men should make it known if they are not ok with the marketing strategies companies use when they want to target male audiences. So also in that sense men have the power, as they are specifically the audience these ads/media tries to sway/influence.

The OP has been a bit vague about which specific companies/ads he talks about (or maybe I've missed it), so I'm not sure what examples to use

Myeah I suppose it was a bit vague on that to begin with, and while you do make a valid point there I don't think I can really respond with much from personal experience; seeing as I don't let advertising affect me as much as the quality of the product. I mean, I don't buy the brand deodorant that throws half-naked women at me in commercials, but the one that smells good to me, to put it simply, I just kind of filter it all out.

Then on the other hand, in my line of work I run into many ads that roll during commercial breaks of sports events, and I do remember a couple distinct ones, one was for a wellness center and its punchline was "Treat your sweetheart to a nice Thai massage and watch the game with your mates in peace", another one was some housecleaning thing with the punchline "Cleaning made so simple, even a man can do it". While the same line, gender-swapped isn't exactly used in power tool commercials, but they did pair a "professional craftsman" using 'ordinary tools' and a "professional mom" using the brand new whatever-they-were-selling...you get what I mean, I think.

I'd very much like to have some insight on just how and why the marketing folks come up with such ideas, but whenever I asked one I got something about them not wanting to bore me with the details >.>

 

[TheWanderingFish]

I don't WANT to be one of those guys who is obsessed only with sex, but the mixed signals I get from my mind, my body, and the world around me are very difficult to untangle at times.

I want sex, and that's okay, right? but it's also not because I shouldn't want just that? Just go out and get a girlfriend? But it's not fair to her for me to want her just because of that. I could find some girl who doesn't care, but isn't that dangerous and sends a bad impression?

The whole thing is a mess and I dunno about anyone else but personally I'd appreciate less condemnation and confusion.

This to a tee. The conflicting desires from the mind and the body are paralyzing.

 

[generals3]

I'd very much like to have some insight on just how and why the marketing folks come up with such ideas, but whenever I asked one I got something about them not wanting to bore me with the details >.>

It's a mix of statistics (even more now in the digital age) and creativity. For instance, there are marketing companies that often run studies on ad recognition, i myself was once surveyed for one of those, where they show random people random ads and ask if they remember these ads and if they know for which brand it was. An other typical method is to survey people regarding brand awareness of a particular product before an ad campaign and after. And basically all this data gives a certain idea of what type of ads work best. And than the ad designers try to mix that knowledge with some creativity and tada you've got an ad. (although what can also happen is that they come up with multiple ads and test them with a small focus group and than take the one with the best response)

 

[Something Amyss]

And my point right here, you are generalizing men.

WHERE?

Saying that men did this doesn't fix anything.

I identified the cause. Pretending men aren't behind it is what doesn't fix anything.

Blaming the companies that advertise this and perpetuate it makes much more sense then saying that "men" should fix this. Which is what you are implying at the least.

The companies are a symptom. A symptom of the male culture which needs to be addressed. And since men are the ones with the control and the power, yes, they should do something.

EDIT: As for what, I honestly don't care. You're the one who hates it, you come up with a valid solution. Petitioning companies to change won't work, though, as long as the public perception remains. Since this predates marketing in any modern sense (Withholding sex as a means to get her way dates back to Shakespeare definitively, and arguably at least Hellenistic Greece). Arguing that it's the company's fault is blame-shifting and will accomplish nothing and I will continue to point that out.

The jist was preserved. The "Sure, whatever" was a bemused one, not a dismissive one.

Well, I guess you're going to keep lying. Probably not going to make any headway, then.

You could've said

Except that's not factually accurate and didn't address the problem at hand.

There's no paternal chastising or accusations of post-hoc excuse-making.

There also wouldn't be any accusations of post-hoc excuse making if you didn't make post-hoc excuses. specially false ones. There is absolutely no way your excuse holds up in reality. That was the point. If you couldn't read what was presented to you, it is not my problem. And that's not hostility.

An edit that maintained the intended meaning is not a lie.

If you think the original text conveyed the same "intended" meaning, maybe you should work on your language skills. Still, you've already said enough false things I have no reason to give you benefit of the doubt.

And if you're against hostility, start with yourself. The beautiful thing is that you're inferring hostility from me while insisting that I'm merely reading you wrong. Not to mention that the only time I ever had any hostile impulse was when you accused me of hostility. And even then, I didn't put it to paper. You teetered right on a self-fulfilling prophesy there. I wish that you could see the irony in that, but you probably won't, so I'm just going to give up at this point. I don't care how many times you insist I'm hostile or escalating, or that your excuse that makes no sense is totes legit. None of that is true.

 

[Something Amyss]

Oh look, a post generalising men. *yawn* Talk about drawing straws.

Did you mean "grasping at straws?" Because what you say implies a lottery.

Really what you should really look into are the kind of people (or men in your case) that tend to dominate those positions.

Which would be a solid argument only if this attitude was only prevalent in those specific positions. They don't. They're prevalent in the male population at large.

 

[Danny Ocean]

Well, I guess you're going to keep lying. Probably not going to make any headway, then.

What is your problem?

You have got to be the single most belligerent poster I've ever had the displeasure of talking to, and I hang out on Religion and Politics. I can't believe you're actually a full 13 years older than me but you're devoting so much time attempting to tell a 21-year old stranger things about himself. Don't you have more important things to do?

If you were, in real life, to pounce on someone who misinterpreted you the way you did, they would be right to be surprised at your hostile response.

I'm not a liar or a hypocrite, and you are in no position to chastise me. Get over yourself. I don't need to justify myself to you any further.

 

[Cloned31]

And my point right here, you are generalizing men.

WHERE?

Saying that men did this doesn't fix anything.

I identified the cause. Pretending men aren't behind it is what doesn't fix anything.

Blaming the companies that advertise this and perpetuate it makes much more sense then saying that "men" should fix this. Which is what you are implying at the least.

The companies are a symptom. A symptom of the male culture which needs to be addressed. And since men are the ones with the control and the power, yes, they should do something.

EDIT: As for what, I honestly don't care. You're the one who hates it, you come up with a valid solution. Petitioning companies to change won't work, though, as long as the public perception remains. Since this predates marketing in any modern sense (Withholding sex as a means to get her way dates back to Shakespeare definitively, and arguably at least Hellenistic Greece). Arguing that it's the company's fault is blame-shifting and will accomplish nothing and I will continue to point that out.

The jist was preserved. The "Sure, whatever" was a bemused one, not a dismissive one.

Well, I guess you're going to keep lying. Probably not going to make any headway, then.

You could've said

Except that's not factually accurate and didn't address the problem at hand.

There's no paternal chastising or accusations of post-hoc excuse-making.

There also wouldn't be any accusations of post-hoc excuse making if you didn't make post-hoc excuses. specially false ones. There is absolutely no way your excuse holds up in reality. That was the point. If you couldn't read what was presented to you, it is not my problem. And that's not hostility.

An edit that maintained the intended meaning is not a lie.

If you think the original text conveyed the same "intended" meaning, maybe you should work on your language skills. Still, you've already said enough false things I have no reason to give you benefit of the doubt.

And if you're against hostility, start with yourself. The beautiful thing is that you're inferring hostility from me while insisting that I'm merely reading you wrong. Not to mention that the only time I ever had any hostile impulse was when you accused me of hostility. And even then, I didn't put it to paper. You teetered right on a self-fulfilling prophesy there. I wish that you could see the irony in that, but you probably won't, so I'm just going to give up at this point. I don't care how many times you insist I'm hostile or escalating, or that your excuse that makes no sense is totes legit. None of that is true.

Annnnnnddddddd Solution! (read the part about sex education especially )

What we should do is scrutinize the companies that perpetuate the sexist nonsense through ad's. Make sex education required in all states and teach students not to rape. We can even teach children at a very young age (without talking about sex) that coercion or peer pressure is not good. That could help these children when they become teenagers and receive sex education. Zachary, instead of trying to blame men why don't we come up with a more concrete solution to the problem. Which was the whole dam point of my argument. I was trying to point out, also, that the mentioned societal propaganda is not an excuse but a reason Therefore I'm not trying to act like the victim or act like other men are victims but conclude that most men act that way because we teach them to act that way. And YES men are the one's teaching them but really, blaming "men" gets us nowhere; blaming and scrutinizing the companies themselves that perpetuate the sexist notions makes much more sense. You are trying to say "men" as if a teacher would say "the class". In other words, you aren't addressing all men. However, saying just "men" to be the perpetrators is just fruitless. We on good authority know that companies advertise sexism often, why not blame those specific people? I mean for christ sake we can point out exactly who does this, so what's the purpose of using the overarching term "men"? "Men should fix this" really isn't concrete and therefore Zachary, your point is moot.

You probably should have read this. Gamer's have shown that berating a company can stop certain paradigms or at least make some change. I mean we've seen that with Bioware and the Mass effect 3 ending. I'm not saying thats the only solution however, which is what I explain in the quote below. You want to talk about making solutions? Cool. Make one yourself. And this is where I detach myself from this topic because I don't want this to turn into something that it wasn't intended to be; a dick measuring contest.