Lady Larunai said:I really hate the conflation between sexual/touching consent and photographical consent and the push for the right you do not have over the rights of others when it comes to photography.
Regardless of personal etiquette not everyone wants to ask for photos, some people are candid photographers and as such their art style is to catch things of beauty other than practised poses, you cannot ask for respect for one form of art (cosplay) to overwrite another form (photography) thats not really how being respectful works
On the not of consent in most states/countries being in a public place is consent to be photographed this includes conventions halls but is restricted to things that are considered private acts ie: bathrooms breaks, sex or changing clothes, things not normally done in public
Another problem is that condition of entry to many conventions is photographical consent, rule 10 of the comicon entry conditions state that by purchasing a ticket and entering the premises you consent to having your photograph taken
On "right to privacy" since someone always tries to mention it, right to privacy only applies to business or profit photography, if its someone that just does it as a hobby you do not have any rights to privacy other than in your own home pr those stated Above in regards to public places
Overall I'm tired of cosplayers (and yes I cosplay most years since 06) trying to gain rights and control they do not have by lumping in photography with being touched
This. Your desire to control your image or situation in public is not a right and it certainly does not trump the rights of others, including the right to photograph. Some of this reminds me of the issues around with celebrity privacy - they want the good elements exposure when it suits them but not when it doesn't.P-89 Scorpion said:If your in public then anyone has a right to take pictures of you that's why CCTV exists.
If you are in your own home in front of your window anyone has the right to take pictures of you as long as they are not on your property.
That is where USA law stands.
I'm a bit ambivalent in regard to how it applies to photography. I kinda see it along the lines of "a cosplayer is allowed to say no, and photographers shouldn't become upset by that". Obviously you can't stop someone from taking pictures even if the cosplayer doesn't want them to, but I generally see the issue of "photography consent" come up regarding asking a cosplayer for photos while they're eating, or while they're sitting down and resting/relaxing, and other stuff of that nature. Yeah, a photographer can still take the cosplayer's picture, but they shouldn't automatically expect the cosplayer to get up and pose for it. This also ties in with the examples given in the video, such as setting up excessive lighting equipment or expecting the cosplayer to travel to another location. Granted, I have seen people argue that you shouldn't even ask for pictures if a cosplayer is eating or resting, but just saying, "No, I'm eating" isn't all that difficult.Lady Larunai said:snip
Speaking from experience here: some candid photographers are really just creeps. I've had to deal with some guy trying to take upskirt pictures of my friends and I (half of us weren't even in cosplay). The guy was kicked out of the convention, but did put his pictures, including a pantyshot taken without consent, on Youtube. That is obviously not okay.Lady Larunai said:I really hate the conflation between sexual/touching consent and photographical consent and the push for the right you do not have over the rights of others when it comes to photography.
Regardless of personal etiquette not everyone wants to ask for photos, some people are candid photographers and as such their art style is to catch things of beauty other than practised poses, you cannot ask for respect for one form of art (cosplay) to overwrite another form (photography) thats not really how being respectful works
On the not of consent in most states/countries being in a public place is consent to be photographed this includes conventions halls but is restricted to things that are considered private acts ie: bathrooms breaks, sex or changing clothes, things not normally done in public
Another problem is that condition of entry to many conventions is photographical consent, rule 10 of the comicon entry conditions state that by purchasing a ticket and entering the premises you consent to having your photograph taken
On "right to privacy" since someone always tries to mention it, right to privacy only applies to business or profit photography, if its someone that just does it as a hobby you do not have any rights to privacy other than in your own home pr those stated Above in regards to public places
Overall I'm tired of cosplayers (and yes I cosplay most years since 06) trying to gain rights and control they do not have by lumping in photography with being touched
It's not chiefly about respecting their art, it's about respecting the person. If someone doesn't want to have photos taken of them and you say "Screw you, my art's more important" then I'd be hard pressed to call the cosplayer the asshole in the situation.Lady Larunai said:I really hate the conflation between sexual/touching consent and photographical consent and the push for the right you do not have over the rights of others when it comes to photography.
Regardless of personal etiquette not everyone wants to ask for photos, some people are candid photographers and as such their art style is to catch things of beauty other than practised poses, you cannot ask for respect for one form of art (cosplay) to overwrite another form (photography) thats not really how being respectful works
This really isn't about legal rights, this is about how people should treat other people. This reminds me of when you make a topic discussing the morality of an action and someone says "Well it's legal where I live". Even if it's totally legal, it doesn't mean that it's a decent thing to do.On the not of consent in most states/countries being in a public place is consent to be photographed this includes conventions halls but is restricted to things that are considered private acts ie: bathrooms breaks, sex or changing clothes, things not normally done in public
Another problem is that condition of entry to many conventions is photographical consent, rule 10 of the comicon entry conditions state that by purchasing a ticket and entering the premises you consent to having your photograph taken
On "right to privacy" since someone always tries to mention it, right to privacy only applies to business or profit photography, if its someone that just does it as a hobby you do not have any rights to privacy other than in your own home pr those stated Above in regards to public places
Overall I'm tired of cosplayers (and yes I cosplay most years since 06) trying to gain rights and control they do not have by lumping in photography with being touched
At the same time, it's a fact that a person dressed up for a particular occasion and then proceeded to go to a public venue where they objectively know that people will be taking pictures of everyone and everything. There's no expectation of privacy. As long as the photographer isn't trying to do things that are obviously wrong such as upskirt shots, then it neither violates the law, venue rules, or generally accepted societal rules.The Almighty Aardvark said:I remember there being a thread earlier about taking photos of people without their permission, and the general consensus was that it was pretty darn rude.
It's not chiefly about respecting their art, it's about respecting the person. If someone doesn't want to have photos taken of them and you say "Screw you, my art's more important" then I'd be hard pressed to call the cosplayer the asshole in the situation.Lady Larunai said:I really hate the conflation between sexual/touching consent and photographical consent and the push for the right you do not have over the rights of others when it comes to photography.
Regardless of personal etiquette not everyone wants to ask for photos, some people are candid photographers and as such their art style is to catch things of beauty other than practised poses, you cannot ask for respect for one form of art (cosplay) to overwrite another form (photography) thats not really how being respectful works
That being said, the cosplayer also should have some right to decide how the art they created is used, even if it's just out of respect for the person. That being said, I don't want to have a discussion about the mess that is appropriation in the art world (Appropriation, in this context, is taking other people's art and using it in your own, with or without their permission).[footnote]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherrie_Levine look at Style and Career for examples of how far you can take appropriation[/footnote]
This really isn't about legal rights, this is about how people should treat other people. This reminds me of when you make a topic discussing the morality of an action and someone says "Well it's legal where I live". Even if it's totally legal, it doesn't mean that it's a decent thing to do.On the not of consent in most states/countries being in a public place is consent to be photographed this includes conventions halls but is restricted to things that are considered private acts ie: bathrooms breaks, sex or changing clothes, things not normally done in public
Another problem is that condition of entry to many conventions is photographical consent, rule 10 of the comicon entry conditions state that by purchasing a ticket and entering the premises you consent to having your photograph taken
On "right to privacy" since someone always tries to mention it, right to privacy only applies to business or profit photography, if its someone that just does it as a hobby you do not have any rights to privacy other than in your own home pr those stated Above in regards to public places
Overall I'm tired of cosplayers (and yes I cosplay most years since 06) trying to gain rights and control they do not have by lumping in photography with being touched
It all depends on context. Primarily I've seen this invoked to prevent situations like a cosplayer is browsing a dealers stall, and someone wants to take advantage of their distraction to take a shot up their skirt, down their top or directly of their backside. (example, I've seen tales of a cosplayer who ended up getting friends to stand behind her to avoid this, and in one case a particular persistent individual led to the friend practically dance around the cosplayer.) Candid shots are one thing, but taking stuff meant for fapping material... pretty creepy, and really not cool to do unless someone says yes.Lady Larunai said:Snip
How do you resolve this with the fact that there's a lot of vocal outcry against people taking pictures of them without their permission at these venues? As NPC009 mentioned here, a lot of conventions explicitly state that you should ask for someone's permission before taking a photo of them. It seems to be becoming less societally acceptable, at least among the people that it concerns.Areloch said:At the same time, it's a fact that a person dressed up for a particular occasion and then proceeded to go to a public venue where they objectively know that people will be taking pictures of everyone and everything. There's no expectation of privacy. As long as the photographer isn't trying to do things that are obviously wrong such as upskirt shots, then it neither violates the law, venue rules, or generally accepted societal rules.
You wouldn't feel like anyone was doing anything wrong if a cosplayer was vocally telling a photographer to not take a photo of them all the while the photographer keeps snapping away? I'd say that contradicts the "As long as you don't act like a dick" rule in the next paragraph.While I feel it's completely in the cosplayer's right to ask the photographer to not take pictures, or delete them if they've already taken them, it's also the photographer's right to decline that request.
There's a difference between someone being in a photo incidentally, and being the subject of the photo. Nobody's going to care if you're taking a photo of a crowd (Unless they're in an embarassing position in it), but they may care if the photo is specifically of them. For something as easy as asking someone before you sneak a photo of them, I don't understand why there's so much outcry against it.As long as neither party act like a dick, there's really no "problem". I mean, going off the other thread when all this came up photography of people in public spaces seems to be a "have your cake and eat it too" situation, where people on the forum seem to be of the opinion "oh sure you can take pictures of people that happen to be in the public space" but it suddenly becomes bad/rude when they take pictures of people that happen to be in a public space ON PURPOSE.
Apples and goats. The only participant in self-expression via cosplay is yourself. "Candid photography," as you choose to describe taking pictures of people who object to being photographed, involves people other than yourself. Deliberately snapping pictures of other people without their consent or knowledge is permissible under rule of law and the terms of most conventions, but it's still a fucking slimy thing to do, and the only benefit to be gleaned from it is that such a photographer is at least willing to announce to us all that he's willing to be shitty. Nice to have that warning, at least.Lady Larunai said:You cannot ask for respect for one form of art (cosplay) to overwrite another form (photography).
Sure, if it's specifically against con rules, that's an entirely different thing, as there IS an expectation of being asked before pictures happen. However, that's not at all always the case, and when it's not specifically part of the rules, people can't EXPECT that to be a requirement.The Almighty Aardvark said:How do you resolve this with the fact that there's a lot of vocal outcry against people taking pictures of them without their permission at these venues? As NPC009 mentioned here, a lot of conventions explicitly state that you should ask for someone's permission before taking a photo of them. It seems to be becoming less societally acceptable, at least among the people that it concerns.Areloch said:At the same time, it's a fact that a person dressed up for a particular occasion and then proceeded to go to a public venue where they objectively know that people will be taking pictures of everyone and everything. There's no expectation of privacy. As long as the photographer isn't trying to do things that are obviously wrong such as upskirt shots, then it neither violates the law, venue rules, or generally accepted societal rules.
As for the fact that everyone expects pictures to be taken of them, even if 95% of the time someone would agree to let you take a picture of them, at the very least that gives them control over how they present themselves in the photo. They don't have to try to keep themselves photogenic for the entire convention to prevent someone from spreading an ugly photo of them online.
Does someone being photographed gets absolute say in what happens with that photograph, even superseding what the photographer wants? Because going off that, that'd apply to anyone that happens to be in a shot, meaning 'Random person in the background 37' has justification to ask for the picture to be deleted otherwise the photographer is now a dick.You wouldn't feel like anyone was doing anything wrong if a cosplayer was vocally telling a photographer to not take a photo of them all the while the photographer keeps snapping away? I'd say that contradicts the "As long as you don't act like a dick" rule in the next paragraph.While I feel it's completely in the cosplayer's right to ask the photographer to not take pictures, or delete them if they've already taken them, it's also the photographer's right to decline that request.
Actually, as someone that has cosplayed many a time, if someone took pictures of me when I wasn't aware of it while out and about at the convention, I don't have a problem with it.There's a difference between someone being in a photo incidentally, and being the subject of the photo. Nobody's going to care if you're taking a photo of a crowd (Unless they're in an embarassing position in it), but they may care if the photo is specifically of them. For something as easy as asking someone before you sneak a photo of them, I don't understand why there's so much outcry against it.As long as neither party act like a dick, there's really no "problem". I mean, going off the other thread when all this came up photography of people in public spaces seems to be a "have your cake and eat it too" situation, where people on the forum seem to be of the opinion "oh sure you can take pictures of people that happen to be in the public space" but it suddenly becomes bad/rude when they take pictures of people that happen to be in a public space ON PURPOSE.
I'm not saying that it should be illegal, I'm saying that it's rude and inconsiderate. In practice, I doubt most people would follow what they're condoning here. Complete strangers taking photos of you can be unnerving, you don't know what they're going to do with them, and it only makes it more worrying when they clearly don't care what your feelings are on how they use it (Particularly when you ask them to delete a photo of you and they refuse).
I'm trying to say that there kind of is that expectation. I've been to a few conventions, and I've never been to one where I saw people taking pictures without permission. Everyone asked, because asking is the polite thing to do. You don't just get people snapping pictures as they walk past you. Even when it wasn't an explicit rule.Areloch said:Sure, if it's specifically against con rules, that's an entirely different thing, as there IS an expectation of being asked before pictures happen. However, that's not at all always the case, and when it's not specifically part of the rules, people can't EXPECT that to be a requirement.
You didn't comment on whether or not you thought the photographer was doing something wrong, am I correct in assuming you wouldn't defend the photographer for keeping taking photos when the cosplayer is explicitly telling them not to?Does someone being photographed gets absolute say in what happens with that photograph, even superseding what the photographer wants? Because going off that, that'd apply to anyone that happens to be in a shot, meaning 'Random person in the background 37' has justification to ask for the picture to be deleted otherwise the photographer is now a dick.
Like, say I ask for permission and take a picture of someone in a hallway at a convention real fast and because it was in the hallway, other people were in the background. Cosplayer A moves on with their day, but Cosplayer B who was in the background saw I took a picture in their general direction, and took offense to that for whatever reason and want me to delete the picture.
Given that the picture wasn't even about them, they're incidental to the picture I took a la the 'taking pictures of a crowd' thing everyone seems to agree with. So am I being a dick because I don't adhere to their wishes to delete the picture they're only in in passing?
That's the problem. ALL of this is incredibly gray and there isn't any specific line that is easily walked over that suddenly makes one person in the wrong.
I meant more in regard to a situation where you saw someone deliberately disregarding someone else's feelings on the picture. Like in the situation I described earlier. Or if someone said "Sorry, I'd appreciate it if you didn't take pictures of me without asking" the photographer apologized, then continued to go around taking photos of them hiding outside of their view. Or if there's an embarrassing photo taken of a cosplayer that they want removed and the photographer tells them really nicely "I'm sorry you feel that way, but this photo is funny and I want to put it online to get hits".Actually, as someone that has cosplayed many a time, if someone took pictures of me when I wasn't aware of it while out and about at the convention, I don't have a problem with it.
Heck, there's a non-insignificant chance - given that it's the internet - that someone may have found one of my cosplay pictures and jacked off to it. I wouldn't know if that's actually true, but I'm not about to let it bother me because I was in a public space, in a fancy costume where picture taking was the norm.
If I didn't want people taking pictures of me, I wouldn't have gotten dressed up. I'm not saying everyone has to be as un-bothered about that as me, but my rights in a public space don't randomly supersede someone else's rights in a public space, and I'm fine with that. Others may disagree, and that's fine, but at minimum, I practice what I preach.