All Female A-Force Replaces The Avengers

Azure23

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Lightspeaker said:
Johnny Novgorod said:
Lightspeaker said:
Azure23 said:
Fantastic Four, Avengers, Justice League, X-men, Guardians of the Galaxy, all have women in them. So I'm quite curious which significant teams are all male that nobody is bothered about?
With the exception of X-Men, all of those groups have maybe one or two token female members in a group that is predominantly male. Fantastic Four has 3 males, 1 female; Guardians has 4 males, 1 female; Avengers has 5 males, 1 female; etc. Justice League has what, Wonder Woman and Hawkgirl as mainstays, and the rest are SuperMAN, BatMAN, AquaMAN, Manhunter, Flash, Green Lantern, etc.

The post I quoted explicitly said "Nobody bats an eye at all male teams" rather than "majority male teams". Which is why I was curious. Again I don't read comics but a quick google search and the magic of wikipedia seems to indicate a proportion of most of the major ones I can think of from an outsider's perspective are female.

To grab one of these at random...Guardians of the Galaxy by wiki's reckoning has thirteen members in its modern lineup in the mainstream universe. Four of which are female (Gamora, Quasar, Mantis and Moondragon).
It does seem I'm guilty of exaggeration in this case, although there are a few all male teams in both Marvel and DC's stable, they're not exactly popular or even relevant anymore. I definitely should have said male dominated teams. My apologies. As to your earlier point about exchanging one bias for another, I'm just not sure that that's what this is. This is a move to garner attention, whether it was done with the best intentions (ie celebrating the many strong women that Marvel has created over the years) or with the worst, (cynical pandering to an increasingly progressive fan base) it doesn't matter. This isn't a permanent departure from the precious status quo of the Marvel universe, it's a stunt. One that I really have no opinion of other than what I've already said on the subject. I will also say that after decades of tokenism and under representation, having one large, all female team could hardly be considered "switching biases."

This next bit is just me speaking to Marvel fans in general.

I guess I'd also like to say that comics are not a zero sum game. Having a book where female heroes are celebrated and given the spotlight doesn't undermine or destroy the dozens of other Marvel books focusing on m ale heroes. Now if you feel that certain characters have been unceremoniously killed off or sidelined or otherwise written out to make way for this brave new world of A force books, I can understand that,and even sympathize to a degree, it sucks when a character that you've grown to love is (in your view) misinterpreted or not given their due because of some boardroom mandated agenda. But I guess all I can say to that is that Marvel and DC are just like that, the creators and writers are accountable to other people, and so are their characters.
 

Skatologist

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Paradoxrifts said:
Audience: Do you any of your films feature a non-white protagonist?
Marvel Comics: Hey! In the comics Captain America is Black now! Isn't that progressive?
Well, they've scheduled Black Panther in 2017 and as far as I know, are still heavily contemplating a woman led film, so your guess of what their doing in terms of comics being their cricticism shield seems flawed to say the least.


Vault101 said:
or did we all just assume that men were the plain food of humanity and woman/others are just spices....and you can't have a dish of nothing but spices?
Couldn't help but think this when you said it:
 

Vault101

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Skatologist said:
Couldn't help but think this when you said it:
[spoiler/]
[/spoiler]
welp....I stand corrected

we shouldn't ever do THAT again
 

Paradoxrifts

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Skatologist said:
Well, they've scheduled Black Panther in 2017 and as far as I know, are still heavily contemplating a woman led film, so your guess of what their doing in terms of comics being their criticism shield seems flawed to say the least.
Think of it as a delaying action that buys time for Marvel Studios to put down as many safe bets as possible before moving on to the riskier stuff. You really can't expect a multinational, multibillion-dollar entertainment conglomerate to do anything other than try to make as much money as it can, for as long as it can, for as little risk as possible. And yes, that does mean that Marvel Studios believed that Guardians Of The Galaxy was a safer bet than either a movie about Black Panther or Captain Marvel.
 

MrFalconfly

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Vault101 said:
MrFalconfly said:
This is why I maintain that yes I'm "privileged", but not because of my sex, or my skin-tone, or my sexual orientation, or hell even my gender-identity. I'm privileged because I live in Denmark.
if you can accept your privileged because you live in Denmark why can't you be privileged because of those other things?

you have the privilege of living in a place with (I assume) a better social security system. (like me assuming the current government doesn't fuck that up)

now assuming that you are cis-white-male-straight (which if I'm wrong please correct me, but the point still stands)

being straight you have the privilege of almost every space being a "hetero" space where you can openly hit on who you want without fear of misunderstanding/retribution, where you can mention your partner without stopping to consider if you should (among other things)

being cis gendered you have the privilege of your gender identify recognised/accepted...not mocked/diminished/questioned (among other things)

being male you have the privilege of existing in the world without the same kind of objectification that a woman experiences (among other things)

being white you have the privilege of not experiencing institutionalised racism and judgment (among other things)

privilege doesn't mean you don't ever have difficulties in life, it means there are certain things you are lucky enough not to experience
Because compared to other people who also live in Denmark having a certain skintone, a certain sexual orientation, a certain gender-identification, or a certain gender doesn't have an effect in your life.

One of the most popular people on Danish television is Jim Lyngvild. He calls himself a "Fashion Dictator", and is a raging homosexual, and people in Denmark love him because he doesn't give a fuck and he just does what he loves.

Or Omar Marzouk. A comedian, with a roots in Egypt, and he happens to be one of the most popular comedians here in Denmark.

Or Linda P. Again a comedian, and again very popular.

Hell take a look at our Head-of-State. QUEEN Margrethe II.
Or our Prime Minister. Helle Thorning-Schmidt
Or the composition of our Parliament. (60/40 Men/Women).

The reason I make the distinction is because I have no privilege because of me being male, having skin that get sunburned, or finding females attractive. I have privilege because I happened to be born in a country that pays me roughly $980/month for pursuing a higher education.

As for "being straight you have the privilege of almost every space being a "hetero" space where you can openly hit on who you want without fear of misunderstanding/retribution, where you can mention your partner without stopping to consider if you should (among other things)". You're a bit behind the curve there. First gay-marriage in Denmark was in October 1st 1989. And when it comes on "hitting on" people, the only risk is the risk of rejection because whoever you wanted to "hit on" didn't swing that way (people are rather relaxed about that over here)

And then this "being cis gendered you have the privilege of your gender identify recognised/accepted...not mocked/diminished/questioned (among other things)". Do I need to remind you who won at ESC 2014 here in Denmark. Hell that bit extends to the entirety of Europe, not just Denmark. If the US is that backwards that this is an issue, then my condolences. But don't try and extend US problems to Europe.

"being male you have the privilege of existing in the world without the same kind of objectification that a woman experiences (among other things)" You haven't been in the Danish night-life then. EVERYONE is a "piece of meat". Sure some males (with a couple of pints of beer in their head) grope women at bars, but I've experience being groped, rubbed and grinded by females too (so have everybody). It works both ways here. If you can't handle social-appreciation turning a bit physical (or groping), then you probably shouldn't be at the club (goes for both men and women).

"being white you have the privilege of not experiencing institutionalised racism and judgment (among other things)" Well here it's a very simple case of just avoiding people who vote for the "Danish People's Party" (people who I myself find VERY abrasive). Hell the rest of the political parties seem to glorify immigrants of any kind (Enhedslisten, the Communist party does it because they want "Revolution", and Liberal Alliance, the libertarians because it gives Denmark a competitive edge in having a better, more diverse workforce).

cis-white-male-straight is simply not a factor of your life if you live in Denmark. What is a factor is your own merits. I make a point of identifying myself as a Dane, because the rest shouldn't have any effect on how people look at me.

EDIT:

Also I forget to mention that being of a certain ethnicity doesn't preclude you from seeking to have an effect in politics.



Meet Naser Khader. A Syrian who immigrated to Denmark and became a Danish politician for the party "Konservative"
 

Vault101

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MrFalconfly said:
Because compared to other people who also live in Denmark having a certain skintone, a certain sexual orientation, a certain gender-identification, or a certain gender doesn't have an effect in your life.
II hear things are pretty cool in scandanavian countries but to say they have no effect whats so ever is ridiculous

[quote/]One of the most popular people on Danish television is Jim Lyngvild. He calls himself a "Fashion Dictator", and is a raging homosexual, and people in Denmark love him because he doesn't give a fuck and he just does what he loves.[/quote]
does the exitance and popularity of Ellen negate Americas homophobia? no...

thease things DO have an effect, even if one is lucky enough not to experience outright/blatant homophobia [i/]youre experience will be different simply due to the fact your not stright[/i]


[quote/]The reason I make the distinction is because I have no privilege because of me being male[/quote]
yes....yes you do

[quote/] I have privilege because I happened to be born in a country that pays me roughly $980/month for pursuing a higher education.[/quote]
privilege comes about in [i/]different areas[/i] or never at all for some people

[quote/] You're a bit behind the curve there. First gay-marriage in Denmark was in October 1st 1989. And when it comes on "hitting on" people, the only risk is the risk of rejection because whoever you wanted to "hit on" didn't swing that way (people are rather relaxed about that over here)[/quote]
I hope thats the case then....

[quote/]And then this "being cis gendered you have the privilege of your gender identify recognised/accepted...not mocked/diminished/questioned (among other things)". Do I need to remind you who won at ESC 2014 here in Denmark. Hell that bit extends to the entirety of Europe, not just Denmark. If the US is that backwards that this is an issue, then my condolences. But don't try and extend US problems to Europe[/quote]
again cool if denmark is good with that one....but I'm not quite willing to belive its all cool bananas, not when most people don't even understand what being transgender is let alone wrapping their heads around the idea that "this person is the gender they identify as" <-thats HARD for the mainstream

[quote/] You haven't been in the Danish night-life then. EVERYONE is a "piece of meat". Sure some males (with a couple of pints of beer in their head) grope women at bars, but I've experience being groped, rubbed and grinded by females too (so have everybody). It works both ways here. If you can't handle social-appreciation turning a bit physical (or groping), then you probably shouldn't be at the club (goes for both men and women).[/quote]
ahh hahaha yeah.....I'm not buying this...sorry
 

MrFalconfly

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Vault101 said:
1: Welcome to Denmark. You idea that gender or sexual preference (something that's usually considered "none of our business") has an effect on your public standing, would be seen as "ridiculous"

2: How popular is Ellen? We aren't talking "popular enough to make a buck". We're talking EVERYBODY FREAKING LOVES HIM. And somehow, I doubt that Ellen has the same per-capita popularity in the US as Jim has in Denmark.

3: No I don't. If I did I wouldn't have to go for a lottery regarding conscription. Women don't (they have the choice. Do they, or don't they want to serve in the Army/Navy/Air Force)

4: And for me that privilege is geographical in nature, not biological or societal.

5: It is.

6: Well I guess it's simply just a question of having two conflicting data points ("it" says "it's" female, but your eyes tell you "male". Kinda like a logic-bomb). The worst thing that happens here is either confusion, or a few questions (I mean Eddy Izzard is a trans-guy-male-lesbian I don't know what the hell he is, but he's funny and that's what matters).

7: Come see for yourself. Although I advice you to loosen the fuck up if you actually do come to visit the Danish night-life. It's all about alcohol, having fun, and preferably not too much hangover the morning after.
 

Vault101

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MrFalconfly said:
you know I don't actually believe you...or believe that people don't have different experiences

again every single effing time it all has to be countered somehow, just cannot accept that there are some things others experience [i/]that you don't[/i] no matter how progressiv eoyur country aparently is


[quote/]6: Well I guess it's simply just a question of having two conflicting data points ("it" says "it's" female, but your eyes tell you "male". Kinda like a logic-bomb). The worst thing that happens here is either confusion, or a few questions (I mean Eddy Izzard is a trans-guy-male-lesbian I don't know what the hell he is, but he's funny and that's what matters).[/quote]
ok, lets assume for a second that Denmark is totally 100% cool with trans people (again I'm not convinced) that doesn't change the fact that elsehwere...in countries we would consider 1st world and comparatively progressive they suffer a lot of shit

[quote/]7: Come see for yourself. Although I advice you to loosen the fuck up if you actually do come to visit the Danish night-life. It's all about alcohol, having fun, and preferably not too much hangover the morning after.[/quote]
please don't tell me to loosen the fuck up... I find it incredibly rude and irritating
 

BoogieManFL

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Vault101 said:
BoogieManFL said:
Schadrach said:
Nurb said:
Cecilo said:
Jake Martinez said:
Super Not Cosmo said:
keniakittykat said:
Lightknight said:
does it ever occur to anyone that if having an all female/majority female team is "pandering"...then having an all male/majority male team is ALSO pandering?

[spoiler/][img/]http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/2013/10/tim-and-eric-mind-blown.gif[/img][/spoiler]


or did we all just assume that men were the plain food of humanity and woman/others are just spices....and you can't have a dish of nothing but spices?

[sub/]but of coarse we would never have such androcentric views unless ociety constantly reinforced- oh wait[/sub]
That was my point.


To me the whole thing seems silly. Why not just have a regular team of chosen characters that would make a good story, instead of looking for some kind of gimmick or some kind of move that says hey look we appeal to *insert demographic here* too!

All men or all women, it's sexist either way TBH.


Buuut it's okay if the group that had been previously excluded is the one now doing the same thing the discriminating group was doing itself.
 

Vault101

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BoogieManFL said:
except no one cries pandering when its all guys

cause thats apparently normal

because men are the default

women are a perceived deviation of the default

fuck it I give up

[img/]https://noshameonlypride.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/mary-poppins-o.gif[/img]
 

MrFalconfly

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Vault101 said:
1: People do have different experiences. That's my entire point. That you can't extend experiences of people in the US to people in Denmark.

2: Have I ever disagreed with that?! No. My point was that where I live, my privilege is derived from my nationality. I didn't say a word about the experiences of people in other countries. And even when that's said, nothing is ever 100% certain (that's a fundamental law of the universe).

3: Fair enough. It is however only an advice. You exhibited a very "up-tight" demeanour. One that generally would be a bit of a "party-pooper" in most clubs over here.

EDIT:

My problem with this whole debacle is that, I will not be told that I have benefited from external factors when that simply haven't been the case. Sure, complain if it's the case where you live (USA I guess), but don't assume it's the same everywhere else.
 

BoogieManFL

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Vault101 said:
BoogieManFL said:
except no one cries pandering when its all guys

cause thats apparently normal

because men are the default

women are a perceived deviation of the default

fuck it I give up

[img/]https://noshameonlypride.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/mary-poppins-o.gif[/img]

Personally I don't know of many all men only things in entertainment, where women are intentionally excluded where it would inappropriate (as in, probably not good idea for a woman to play Football and get crushed by those huge beasts of men for example) so I don't know of any of this all male pandering you speak of that is applicable to the context of this post.
 

OldNewNewOld

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Azure23 said:
Nobody bats an eye at all male teams, why are people upset about this?
I don't really care one way or another because I was never into american super hero comics, but I would say that people are mad because it's just a genderswap of existing hero's. It feels like cheap pandering with the "oh look how progressive we are bullshit" yet every one of them is the same generic sexy lady.
No one bats an eye when a new female hero is introduced. No one would bat an eye if a new all female team was introduced. Everyone who loves the existing heroes bats an eye because it fucks up existing character for the shake of fake diversity.

I know I would be damn mad if Nintendo pulled a genderswap in Zelda. It would probably be the only Zelda game I wouldn't buy. But if they released a different action adventure game similar to Zelda but with a female protagonist, I would probably buy it because I love such games.

Why do you people want to take away stuff from others? Why don't you fight so much for new character which you would like? Why do you want to fuck up existing character for everyone who loves them?
 

CrazyBlaze

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Scarim Coral said:
Wait, I thought the reboot happened AFTER the new Secret War?

Also "A-Force"? What's the A stand for? Avengers? (Also no I'm not going for the immature/ sexist letter.)

Another thng, couldn't they had reused that team name "Lady Liberators" since that kind of relevent? Before you asked this team name, it was a one off thing (I think?) but reappear during Red Julk as She-Hulk reassemble the team to take down the Red Julk.

Lastly, who's Nico Minoru? Oh she's a menber of the Runaways (I read one of their graphic novels). So they decided to make them well that character relevent again despite they had vanish in the Marvel universe for a couple of years now.

One more thing (last one I swear)! Is that Spider-Swn I spy on the cover? Great so they are going to canon her well put her into the 616 universe (well ok I got no problem with that see how popular she had become and I do loved her costume design).
Its not much a reboot as much as it is throwing in a whole bunch of alternative marvel universes into the main one.
 

Verlander

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I'm up for an all-girl team, but I'd like it to be for a reason other than "this is kinda a popular thing right now and we're bandwagon jumping". The plus for Marvel, of course, is that they've got some really great female characters. It's an area in which they're head and shoulders above DC IMO
 

Madrax

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Honestly, i'm all for an all woman Avengers group, though I wish they werent getting rid of the main team for it, even if it is almost certainly temporary. Especially with She-Hulk apparently leading, she's always fun.

That said I do need to restate my original complaint, were is Tigra?! A long time marvel heroine and long standing Avenger and she's no were in sight is worrisome.
Sigh being a Tigra fan is suffering sometimes.
 

Skatologist

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TheKasp said:
BiH-Kira said:
I don't really care one way or another because I was never into american super hero comics, but I would say that people are mad because it's just a genderswap of existing hero's.
This would be an interesting takes if any of the heroines were new or even recently introduced. As it stands nearly all of them are older than I am (I am fresh and perky 26 years old).

Even with the new female Thor all you have is a new wielder of Mjöllnir. Thor, as in the old wielder is still around.
As stated previously, there is at least one new heroine within this line up, to the right of She Hulk is Singularity a "sentient universe who chooses female form"
 

Azure23

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BiH-Kira said:
Azure23 said:
Nobody bats an eye at all male teams, why are people upset about this?
I don't really care one way or another because I was never into american super hero comics, but I would say that people are mad because it's just a genderswap of existing hero's. It feels like cheap pandering with the "oh look how progressive we are bullshit" yet every one of them is the same generic sexy lady.
No one bats an eye when a new female hero is introduced. No one would bat an eye if a new all female team was introduced. Everyone who loves the existing heroes bats an eye because it fucks up existing character for the shake of fake diversity.

I know I would be damn mad if Nintendo pulled a genderswap in Zelda. It would probably be the only Zelda game I wouldn't buy. But if they released a different action adventure game similar to Zelda but with a female protagonist, I would probably buy it because I love such games.

Why do you people want to take away stuff from others? Why don't you fight so much for new character which you would like? Why do you want to fuck up existing character for everyone who loves them?
Please tell me which of those characters are a gender swap of existing characters? I had no idea secret crisis was going to involve some sort of y-chromosome mutating agent that would turn all the male heroes into women!

No but seriously I don't read a lot of Marvel so there may be a few. But try and keep in mind that female heroes with similar powers to their male counterparts are not gender swaps, they're not replacing anyone, they spun off of other books. Rescue is Pepper Pots in an ironman suit customized for first response work, not female Tony Stark. She Hulk is Bruce Banner's cousin who got a similar set of powers through a blood transfusion, not female Bruce Banner, etc, etc.

And I'd just like to say that clearly you just responded to my first and least detailed post, without first scrolling down a bit and seeing what else I had to say on the matter. As I very clearly addressed your major grievance in a post not half a page down.

I think it's pretty funny that you bring up Link as a character that must be male, considering that out of all storied videogame franchises, he is probably the one who would be least affected by having his gender changed. He's barely a character, with little to no dialogue, and the reincarnation mechanic just means that a hero (male or female) is imbued with the triforce of courage. Link being a woman would have no effect of the character, but that's a whole nother can of worms I'm not willing to open up right now.

Also your use of "you people" is kinda funny? What are you assuming I am?