runic knight said:
Rebel_Raven said:
Oh, so it's only a PR stunt when women do it? Coz guys have done it, and it's not even a blip on my radar. I dunno about you, but it doesn't really get talked about when guys do it.
There's a reason it's getting the attention it does. Coz it's so damn rare. Rare things often get talked about. If it wasn't rare, and if it wasn't handled poorly in the past, I doubt people would be talking about it.
Perhaps it doesn't get talked about "when guys do it" because A. it isn't sold on the fact like it is publicly pointing at itself asking for a gold star and B. it isn't treated like a freak quality to market on and instead just happens as a result of the story.
I wont argue it is rarer, I am arguing that the handling of the idea is abhorrently clumsy, both in execution and in intent.
I'll grant you it seems out of the blue, but has even issue #1 released? No one knows what's going on, do they? Why they formed? It might be good?
It'd be damn near impossible to make it into an arc where the group is formed. I doubt anyone would be satisfied if they tried.
That is actually the entirety of the problem I see with it.
It ISN'T out of the blue.
It ISN'T released
It never tried to make it into an actual story arc
and it should be all of those in a storycrafting perspective. The team should just form organically because of events. The story should be just released as a story about the major event, not as a spcial sideshow. And it should be an actual story within the universe, not little more then an event else-world tale.
Instead of making it a natural progression of story, which they actually had groundwork to set up since they plan these events well in advance, they instead opted for the "look at this, all women, so wacky, am I right?!?" approach. Taking what could have been a good story idea (and I happily admit, it is a fairly decent concept about often less popular heroes forming a rag-tag replacement force to give them a chance to shine. Rather like when that happens actually) and instead reducing it to a freakshow concept that devalues the characters as characters. They aren't marketed as characters, they are marketed as women. Hell, at least with the whole "rag-tag replacements" theme, it at least treats them as the charcters they are first and foremost, even if their popularity is low. This though? Ask yourself, at the end of the day, what is the sole reason they chose those characters? The fact it is "their gender" is why I think it is worth taking them to task, since it reveals that they cared more about the gender of the characters as a token gimmick instead of the actual interesting qualities and appeal of the characters could fit in the story. And that is a shame.
The women of marvel gotta find a place to take off -somewhere-, IMO. And that somewhere needs to be strong writing, characterization, and frankly not being tied down.
I agree they need a place to take off to show off the appeal of the characters as characters people can enjoy. A gimmick is not known for staying power. All I can think of with this is the many event comics before where B-squad heroes and villains are brought in solely to be killed for "gravity". It is the same disregard of the characters as fans and writers might enjoy to instead use them as fodder to prop up the flagships. Only instead of killing them off, they are treating it like a sideshow attraction. Come on, come all, see the bewildering
female avengers.
IMO, an all girl group is the only logical way to do it. Add a guy into the mix, and it's "who's he going to end up with?" and sadly "how is she going to be abused to keep the guy being heroic?" And who ever he ends up with is prolly gunna get a lot of character taken away in the name of being the love interest. Hell, add a token guy in a group of more than 1 woman, and they'll prolly end up fighting over him knowing the comics industry. >.>
At least in an all woman group it's more likely to lead to lesbian encounters. Not a whole lot of lesbians in Marvel ,believe me, I've looked. LGBTQ are certainly underrepresented.
Valid concerns, though not limited to gender or sexuality. Race, nationality, even religion are also poorly represented in a similar fashion. Partly because of demographics, partly because it is the demographics of old writing this generation's comics, and partly because the comic industry is relatively terrible with characters in general most of the time. And those issues are certainly worth addressing, but is "add a token ____ character." really any better when the reason they exist is to be a token? Is it better when it is a token group instead of a single character?
And that isn't to say an all-female team can't or shouldn't exist. Hell, think someone was mentioning birds of prey before which is a hell of a good team. But something seems very very wrong to me when the idea of "all female team" is the very gimmick they are selling it on. Ok, they are all female, what about it? What happens when the gimmick runs its course? Well, if they are lucky, a couple characters will be kept around because they were written well. If they aren't, then back in the vaults with the rest of the B-squad members to be paraded out and killed off during the next event they need to "raise the stakes" on. Granted, Marvel is considerably less guilty of that then DC, but the fact does remain.
In the end, my complaint is not they don't have a "token" guy (since a token guy is the exact same stupidity as a token anything) but rather that they revealed the entire intent of the group was gender in the first place, perpetually showing a company view of the characters as gender-first, instead of hero first.
In a balanced group, women are likely going to end up in the shadow of the guys (Lets not pretend wolverine doesn't outshine basically everyone anyhow
), which is probably why there's the disrespect most of the women of marvel in general for the most part, a point so obviously pointed out by this thread.
Frankly, I hadn't heard of many, if any break out woman stars from a diverse group like the X-men, or Avengers.
Rogue, Storm, Wasp, they were great characters. Hell, Jean Grey/Pheonix was interesting, if a bit too Mary sue-ism to me. And while Wolverine may have outshone the team, that was not because he was powerful, but because he was famous. Hell, comic-verse Rogue would probably wipe the floor with him easily in a real fight. The issue there is writer favoritism, though even with some characters more used then others, them being good characters is what makes them memorable and stick with people. Rogue had a great amount of power, but also a good story I though. Wolverine was nearly entirely an amnesiac one with gruff persona.
As for disrespect, I don't think that is the right word here. Good characters did not break out, this is very true, but that was less out of a lack of respect so much as a mix of a lack of consumer response to them and a lack of writer desire to bring them into the forefront.
Not that I want to come off the wrong way here, but men are a distraction, and basically just get in the way of a female character gaining solid popularity. The presence of a male super hero in a group just won't stand for trading places with a woman's role (humorously pointed out in the post you quoted), and due to that a male's presence would just demand the spotlight, and the attention of the women around him.
Men aren't the sole reason, mind you, it's general writing, too, but once women get written into relationships with guys, and it's basically over for them, it seems.
You assume comic book characters are allowed relationships for any reason besides to have more drama anyways, regardless of gender. Spiderman had one and it got torn away in bullshit handwaving just to restore status quo. While I do get the point you make about it increasing the chance of an outstanding star if they aren't competing with male characters (or more particularly, established, already popular male characters), do note my complaint was more on execution of the idea and not the idea itself. Honestly, an all-female avenger team would be cool if done right. The problem I am many others here seem to have is that the intent of the story is ENTIRELY about it being an all-female team as a gimmick and sideshow instead of a story idea that just evolved into it.
Hell, it's not just Marvel. Look at Batgirl, for instance. She doesn't get a lot of screen time, barely appears in games (basically Injustice, and Lego) and until recently hadn't gotten a lot of traction, meanwhile Nightwing, and the guy robins certainly has. Of course she's forever in the shadow of Batman.
Power girl, and super girl both are basically in the same boat, though Supergirl's getting a show that, hopefully, won't be embarrassing like the movie she got back in the day.
Wonder Woman? She gets a few animated movies, but she's still not as revered as Batman, or Superman despite being in the trinity. She's not in any more games that Batgirl, really.
True, though I have to ask how much time in the spotlight captain marvel, red tornado or hell, even green arrow, the flash or the martian manhunter have gotten as well. They concentrate very heavily on the popular characters, namely superman and batman. As a business, it makes sense why. As a character exploration and story-telling medium, it sucks, but that is sort of the breaks there.
Wonderwomen is a noteworthy mention though, as she is part of the trinity and should get more airtime over the rest of the league. I am curious why she doesn't though, aside from the blistering failure that was her movie in the... 80's was it? Either way, she should get more usage as a character yet doesn't and aside from demographic targeting and DC being largely terrible movie-makers in general, not sure why not.
While I'm on the topic, comic women who actually do get movies are basically there for name recognition. Certainly not lore, or respect for the property, which is why they all suck, outside of the animated stuff that is obscure, and still rare.
The women of comics need better marketing, IMO.
Creating a new hero isn't easy, I imagine. Just about everything interesting has been done, so they'd likely be called redundant, derivative, etc. Why have that hero when this one has similar powers, and better name recognition? I mean, lets look at the latest hot topic for women, Kamala Khan. A woman who's using a name passed down to her.
Spider Gwen is an offshoot from spiderman, obviously. Hopefully she'll go farther than any other female spider offshoot has, which isn't a long trip. Silk, hopefully, will not fade into obscurity, either. Hopefully Spider Woman'll get revitalized and on the scene.
Hopefully Squirrel Girl's series will do well, too. It might help that she doesn't have to be taken seriously.
Catpcha: Roll over
no thanks.
You know, you touch on something there. Similar powers and brand would be a main point of why related characters aren't used as much as the most popular of that brand. And the similar powers would also make people less likely to be attached to that character over another they already know. Hmm, it might be worth looking into that further doing a deeper examination into public opinion based on power similarities. Wonder if that in turn might not relate to the wonder women question from before, since the two most popular are diametric opposites of the hero power scales, while wonder woman comes off as a weaker Superman in terms of powers (strength, flight, and speed but lacking breath and laser vision. Lasso and bracelets probably not enough to combat the "cool" factor of sup's powers.
I'll grant you that there's banking on the A-force's all female roster. Still, they're going to be presented as heroes, I'd hope. More so, they'll be presented as heroes and not heroes in relationships with heroes that overshadow them.
Yeah, it might be the shock value being sought after, but the opportunity for people to find lesser known characters like Nico Minoru, Hellcat, and Aurora, and others could be a good thing. Heck, I'm actually excited. Then again, I'm probably weird in that I'll look up a character's biography and click the links of other characters, places, and items linked to in that biography, and just spend time reading based on the threads connecting one character to another. This series can probably save me some time, especially on checking out the women of Marvel.
I really don't expect A-force to last. Honestly, a gimmick doesn't always have to last to have an impact, either. It just has to advertise effectively. Get people hooked. Show them a variety of things so they can pick out what they like, and glom onto it for all it's worth. The A-force seems to be well aimed at doing that. The purpose, as I understand it is to showcase a wide assortment of mentalities, powers, etc. and they just happen to be women, which might lead to some of them gaining more fame than they ever had being in a group, and diversifying the main lineup of heroes beyond the X-men, and Avengers.
Maybe A-force is going for the "freak show" route, and maybe it isn't the best method, but I'm not sure that's entirely a bad thing. I'd imagine it'd be very useful for showing that the Marvel Universe isn't just guys, it's women, too, and that potentially have a big impact. It'll show women being heroic, using their powers, not being in a relationship that may have defined them before, and so forth.
*Pushes up geek specs* Birds of Prey is just the title of the comic. The group doesn't really go by the name (Or any name for that matter). Also, while it's primarily Oracle, Black Canary, and Lady Blackhawk as staple members, Hawk (Don, not Holly Granger), Savant, and several other guys have temporarily been on the team, or assisted enough to count, IMO, kinda making it not women exclusive.
Honestly, the closest thing I can think of to an all woman team would be the Gotham City Sirens, and that was woefully short lived. Oh, and barbie, and her friends in the super hero movie thing they're doing, maybe.
Rogue, Wasp, Storm, Jean, etc. are great characters, I agree. Problem is, well, honestly, what have they done outside of their team? Storm, I think had a brief starring role in her own comic.
I'm pretty sure most every male Avenger has, or had their own comicbook title.
The women, not so much.
A lot of male Avengers are getting their own movie.
The women, again, not so much.
The favoritism you mention is part of the problem, IMO. If underutilized characters remain that way, they're harder to make into popular characters. I'd think some of the appreciation for a lot of the female characters is an appreciation for the underdogs of the popularity contest more than their character, and I'm guilty of that.
Honestly, power has little to do with my complaints. Wolverine was pushed to get popular. The rest of the X-men, not so much. The push is what's important, IMO.
I still think disrespect would be the right word. Few people expect much out of the women of marvel, few people really utilize them, few people write well for them. They make shitty movies with them, the "Women in refrigerators" trope exists for a reason, etc.
I feel like it takes respect for the property to do a character justice, and a lot of female characters just don't get that, and I don't know why. If they don't care that much about the property, why bother? Find someone that does, I say.
I gotta say you're wrong about my opinion on relationships. I actually don't expect relationships to be more than drama. I know better than to expect happily ever after.
Problem is the guy's usually on the "I'm still alive" end of things, and women are usually, well, check out "Women in refrigerators." The latter exists for a reason, largely because it happens a lot. The whole being depowered, killed, etc. thing really kinda stops any momentum towards getting popular. I think Jean Grey really got screwed over in that regard. lol
The joke about Hawkeye trying to be the token guy, then backing out once he realized what would likely happen to him is relevant, IMO, for a reason.
Frankly, women get the short end of the stick. DC didn't just screw over Batwoman's lesbian wedding, they screwed over a lesser known lesbian named Scandal Savage who was going to try and have a polygamous wedding with a stripper and a New God (Knockout) that could fight Superboy. Moreover, that trio was one of my favorite relationships in all of Comics.
Having done some googling, it seems like the execution of the idea of an all female avengers is a curiosity from a higher power to learn more about humans.
Personally, I don't care what the idea is, I'm somewhat optimistic that it has a shot in hell of giving more women opportunities to shine, and actually garner some respect. Having stumbled across the whole near 50% of comic fans are women statistic, I'm hoping that it helps show that despite a strong male dominance, there's worthwhile women in the Marvel Universe, too.
Green Arrow has a long running, popular show. Flash is hot on his heels. They've gotten a good bit of attention. Arrow's already got a line of figures out, including Black Canary (though she seems a far cry from what I know) so the attention is there. Not just in media, but in marketing. I don't doubt that we'll see figures from Flash's series soon.
Red Tornado, Captain Marvel, Martian Manhunter, etc. not so much. Not lately anyhow. Captain Marvel (At least the Shazam powered one) had a TV show back in the day, I'm sure, but I'm more of a mind to ask "what have you done for me lately" so WW's old show, or Marvel's old show doesn't really factor in.
I agree entirely that WW should be getting more attention, and it's just weird she doesn't get it. She'll have, likely, a bit part in the Batman vs Superman movie (And likely as Superman's love interest, if not Batman's), but a lot of others are said to be having a part in the movie further diminishing her importance, IMO.
DC's not terrible terrible at movies. They're just starting to find their way. Grim Dark, mainly. Which, IMO, WW is at least better suited for than Superman. That, and they're better at animated stuff, IMO.
Maybe if they somehow could transfer the spirit of their animated stuff to live action?
Honestly, what Wonder Woman marketing should capitalize on, IMO, is the way she approaches things. She does so as a warrior more than anything. She's not afraid to stab people with swords for one thing. You're right on her powerset being less than Superman's.
A pair of shows come to mind, actually.
Hercules: The Legendary journeys, and Xena: Warrior Princess. It's almost a perfect example of how to differentiate Superman from Wonder Woman. One's a super powered boyscout, the other a more skilled fighter not afraid to use weapons freely, and isn't quite as squeaky clean.
Mindset's not the same as powerset, I'll grant that.
Honestly, out of a lot of examples I listed, especially in the Bat, Spider, and Kryptonian family Wonder Woman is more likely to use what ever similar powers she has differently.
