All Female A-Force Replaces The Avengers

likalaruku

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At first, I thought this was for a movie. It would have gone with the all female Ghostbusters.

I don't really see it as feminist at all. A shit ton of guys are going to be scouring it for lesbian subtext to fap to. It also gives the artists excuse to focus more on boobs & butts.
 

Dastardly

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F-I-D-O said:
[sub]Dazzler? Really?[/sub]
Probably because she's actually a famous pop star first, and superhero second -- so it's a bit different flavor from a lot of the other characters. Kind of like She-Hulk's lawyer side, but with a less serious spin.
 

Ramzal

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Azure23 said:
Nobody bats an eye at all male teams, why are people upset about this? Imagine if people were as cynical about those teams; "God stupid marvel trying to pander to all those meninist idiots with an obviously contrived all male team, hell I bet they'll spend the entire time fighting for better treatment in divorce courts and custody cases!"

Seriously, that's how silly you people sound to me. It's not like comic creators try to shake things up every once in awhile because they're tired of catering to the shareholder mandated status quo, nope, never happens.

Also someone up above mentioned Tigra, I am similarly upset at the lack of Tigra in this image.
Um... What all male team do you know of in Marvel barring the Illuminati? Marvel has a long standing history of having females in the majority of their teams and usually if they aren't in a certain team it's mainly because an actual point is being made about that group. I'm kind of convinced that people who are upset about this all female team are less silly than an opinion that there are "all male teams" that you seem to think are prominent in Marvel.

The only issue I have with A-force is that they limit themselves by being all female teams. Marvel teams were made by what each character brings to the table that another doesn't. Ironman chose Ms. Marvel (She's captain marvel now) because she is a natural born leader and a tactical thinker rather than the size of her chest. Cap put Quake on the avengers due to her being trained by Fury, resourceful, one of the most powerful precision meta-humans around and her know how of military operations. Misty Knight has saved Iron-Fist and Luke Cage's behinds several times.

Off the top of my head I can only think of THREE teams that have been exclusive to women and that's been the Illuminati, the Wrecking Crew, and The Sinister Six (Although recently that's changed.) The Masters of Evil has had women in their ranks, as has the Defenders, Hulks Warbound, X-factor, X-Force, X-men, Carnage's group of crazy people that I forget their name is, The Avengers, The Secret Avengers, The InHumans, MOST OF THE FIGHTERS IN WAKANDA ARE FEMALE, The Fantastic Four, West Coast Avengers, Force Works, The Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, A-Next, Alpha Flight, The Guardians of the Galaxy.

I'd like to point something out to people however.

THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME MARVEL HAS DONE AN ALL FEMALE TEAM!

Civil War registration brought on "The Woman Warriors." There's also BAD Girls Inc, Lady Liberators, a few more are lost to mind at the moment, but there was a group that Deadpool went against in Cable & Deadpool...but I can't recall their team name. Point is this isn't new. This isn't the first time and it isn't fresh or a shake of the status quo in the least. The only thing different here is that marvel is louder about their existence. That being said, I am in no way shape or form against this but I'm against people acting as if this is some giant new step that Marvel is making when it's not. It's a new team so lets just see where it goes and if it sucks it sucks.

But if it's good then it's good.
 

Ramzal

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Rebel_Raven said:
runic knight said:
Rebel_Raven said:
Haha,


Heaven forbid there's ever anything all women in comics. I've heard about the all female avengers, but not Iron Man's all male illuminati group for some reason. Probably because an all male group's not particularly noteworthy while an all women group gets discredited, and criticized as if women can't pull it off, and is generally news worthy because it's pretty rare. It doesn't help any that it's rare that the all women group gets respected in the first place.

Kinda irritating that people expect people to be happy with the status quo, and heaven forbid anything ever alter it even in the slightest. People acting like others should be happy with being disrespected, marginalized, and so forth. Frankly, it's a really idiotic notion that people have to be silent so long as what they speak of dares go against the "norm." As if any excuse can make things better when people are upset with the status quo. It might be a temporary balm to hear an excuse, but it won't last forever.
There is a difference between "shaking up the status quo" and "making a side show of gender specific character for publicity sake". Maybe people are far less upset about it being a "deviation of the status quo" and instead see it as a reflection of the status quo ("hey look at us using women, how unconventional, am I right?!?")and of a shameless PR stunt in how it is executed?

Honestly, I would have been a hell of a lot more convinced about the purity of the motives if instead of making it a noteworthy spectacle that "omg, all women avengers!?!?", they just ran the storyline and had that simply be a result. It doesn't take much to not intentionally call attention to the fact you are doing some as if it is a freakshow.
Oh, so it's only a PR stunt when women do it? Coz guys have done it, and it's not even a blip on my radar. I dunno about you, but it doesn't really get talked about when guys do it.
There's a reason it's getting the attention it does. Coz it's so damn rare. Rare things often get talked about. If it wasn't rare, and if it wasn't handled poorly in the past, I doubt people would be talking about it.

I'll grant you it seems out of the blue, but has even issue #1 released? No one knows what's going on, do they? Why they formed? It might be good?
It'd be damn near impossible to make it into an arc where the group is formed. I doubt anyone would be satisfied if they tried.

The women of marvel gotta find a place to take off -somewhere-, IMO. And that somewhere needs to be strong writing, characterization, and frankly not being tied down.

IMO, an all girl group is the only logical way to do it. Add a guy into the mix, and it's "who's he going to end up with?" and sadly "how is she going to be abused to keep the guy being heroic?" And who ever he ends up with is prolly gunna get a lot of character taken away in the name of being the love interest. Hell, add a token guy in a group of more than 1 woman, and they'll prolly end up fighting over him knowing the comics industry. >.>
At least in an all woman group it's more likely to lead to lesbian encounters. Not a whole lot of lesbians in Marvel ,believe me, I've looked. LGBTQ are certainly underrepresented.
In a balanced group, women are likely going to end up in the shadow of the guys (Lets not pretend wolverine doesn't outshine basically everyone anyhow :p), which is probably why there's the disrespect most of the women of marvel in general for the most part, a point so obviously pointed out by this thread.
Frankly, I hadn't heard of many, if any break out woman stars from a diverse group like the X-men, or Avengers.

Not that I want to come off the wrong way here, but men are a distraction, and basically just get in the way of a female character gaining solid popularity. The presence of a male super hero in a group just won't stand for trading places with a woman's role (humorously pointed out in the post you quoted), and due to that a male's presence would just demand the spotlight, and the attention of the women around him.
Men aren't the sole reason, mind you, it's general writing, too, but once women get written into relationships with guys, and it's basically over for them, it seems.

Hell, it's not just Marvel. Look at Batgirl, for instance. She doesn't get a lot of screen time, barely appears in games (basically Injustice, and Lego) and until recently hadn't gotten a lot of traction, meanwhile Nightwing, and the guy robins certainly has. Of course she's forever in the shadow of Batman.
Power girl, and super girl both are basically in the same boat, though Supergirl's getting a show that, hopefully, won't be embarrassing like the movie she got back in the day.
Wonder Woman? She gets a few animated movies, but she's still not as revered as Batman, or Superman despite being in the trinity. She's not in any more games that Batgirl, really.

While I'm on the topic, comic women who actually do get movies are basically there for name recognition. Certainly not lore, or respect for the property, which is why they all suck, outside of the animated stuff that is obscure, and still rare.

The women of comics need better marketing, IMO.

Creating a new hero isn't easy, I imagine. Just about everything interesting has been done, so they'd likely be called redundant, derivative, etc. Why have that hero when this one has similar powers, and better name recognition? I mean, lets look at the latest hot topic for women, Kamala Khan. A woman who's using a name passed down to her.
Spider Gwen is an offshoot from spiderman, obviously. Hopefully she'll go farther than any other female spider offshoot has, which isn't a long trip. Silk, hopefully, will not fade into obscurity, either. Hopefully Spider Woman'll get revitalized and on the scene.
Hopefully Squirrel Girl's series will do well, too. It might help that she doesn't have to be taken seriously.

Catpcha: Roll over
no thanks.
There have been really good female book runs in Marvel. o_o. The latest She-Hulk run was great except the art was very selective for those who liked it (I personally didn't like the art but the story was pretty cool.) X-23's run was awesome and in my opinion the art fluctuated between great and WTF? Angela's book is pretty good right now and hilarious considering how she interacts with normal humans and promises/giving your word/paying back the debt for picking up a child's rubber ball. Storm has comics out again but they're...okayish to be honest with you. Ms. Marvel's 2006-2010 run was great. The current Ms. Marvel is not my cup of tea but it can be appreciated. Spider-Girl was really good as Mayday just clicked and it's hard to put it into words but it just worked. Spider-Girl/Arana was pretty down to earth all things considered with hit or miss levels of entertainment.

Personally, I don't dig the current Thor. I feel that the whole point that she is a woman is being forced just a tad bit. Namely the kissing Thor part to prove she wasn't his mother. Squirrel Girl's series is fun and I have mixed opinions about Spider-Woman's comics but the good thing about them is that you get a very complex and deep character out of Jessica Drew as she's someone who'd rather have had any other kind of life than the one she has but she deals and makes the most of it. There are gems in female characters in comics but I don't feel like a lot of people give them the chance or shine they deserve.

For me though, Ms. Marvel's run was great as she is pretty believable as far as her being a person goes. I honestly think it comes down to people. If you are honestly interested in more female teams or characters then buy more comics with female heads/teams or write to marvel about it. They read their fan mail.
 

NRVNQSR86

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As long as this doesn't become a trend, I cba. If it becomes however 'men are bad, women are good', it's time to do away with the Western comics-industry and lock away SJWs for the sake of the sanity of the world.
 

faefrost

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It looks like Milo has discovered comic books as well as video games.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/02/14/female-thor-is-what-happens-when-progressive-hand-wringing-and-misandry-ruin-a-cherished-art-form/

I'll just leave this here and go make some popcorn.
 

runic knight

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Rebel_Raven said:
I'll grant you that there's banking on the A-force's all female roster. Still, they're going to be presented as heroes, I'd hope. More so, they'll be presented as heroes and not heroes in relationships with heroes that overshadow them.
Yeah, it might be the shock value being sought after, but the opportunity for people to find lesser known characters like Nico Minoru, Hellcat, and Aurora, and others could be a good thing. Heck, I'm actually excited. Then again, I'm probably weird in that I'll look up a character's biography and click the links of other characters, places, and items linked to in that biography, and just spend time reading based on the threads connecting one character to another. This series can probably save me some time, especially on checking out the women of Marvel.

I really don't expect A-force to last. Honestly, a gimmick doesn't always have to last to have an impact, either. It just has to advertise effectively. Get people hooked. Show them a variety of things so they can pick out what they like, and glom onto it for all it's worth. The A-force seems to be well aimed at doing that. The purpose, as I understand it is to showcase a wide assortment of mentalities, powers, etc. and they just happen to be women, which might lead to some of them gaining more fame than they ever had being in a group, and diversifying the main lineup of heroes beyond the X-men, and Avengers.

Maybe A-force is going for the "freak show" route, and maybe it isn't the best method, but I'm not sure that's entirely a bad thing. I'd imagine it'd be very useful for showing that the Marvel Universe isn't just guys, it's women, too, and that potentially have a big impact. It'll show women being heroic, using their powers, not being in a relationship that may have defined them before, and so forth.

*Pushes up geek specs* Birds of Prey is just the title of the comic. The group doesn't really go by the name (Or any name for that matter). Also, while it's primarily Oracle, Black Canary, and Lady Blackhawk as staple members, Hawk (Don, not Holly Granger), Savant, and several other guys have temporarily been on the team, or assisted enough to count, IMO, kinda making it not women exclusive. :p
Honestly, the closest thing I can think of to an all woman team would be the Gotham City Sirens, and that was woefully short lived. Oh, and barbie, and her friends in the super hero movie thing they're doing, maybe.

Rogue, Wasp, Storm, Jean, etc. are great characters, I agree. Problem is, well, honestly, what have they done outside of their team? Storm, I think had a brief starring role in her own comic.
I'm pretty sure most every male Avenger has, or had their own comicbook title.
The women, not so much.
A lot of male Avengers are getting their own movie.
The women, again, not so much.

The favoritism you mention is part of the problem, IMO. If underutilized characters remain that way, they're harder to make into popular characters. I'd think some of the appreciation for a lot of the female characters is an appreciation for the underdogs of the popularity contest more than their character, and I'm guilty of that.
Honestly, power has little to do with my complaints. Wolverine was pushed to get popular. The rest of the X-men, not so much. The push is what's important, IMO.

I still think disrespect would be the right word. Few people expect much out of the women of marvel, few people really utilize them, few people write well for them. They make shitty movies with them, the "Women in refrigerators" trope exists for a reason, etc.
I feel like it takes respect for the property to do a character justice, and a lot of female characters just don't get that, and I don't know why. If they don't care that much about the property, why bother? Find someone that does, I say.

I gotta say you're wrong about my opinion on relationships. I actually don't expect relationships to be more than drama. I know better than to expect happily ever after. :p
Problem is the guy's usually on the "I'm still alive" end of things, and women are usually, well, check out "Women in refrigerators." The latter exists for a reason, largely because it happens a lot. The whole being depowered, killed, etc. thing really kinda stops any momentum towards getting popular. I think Jean Grey really got screwed over in that regard. lol
The joke about Hawkeye trying to be the token guy, then backing out once he realized what would likely happen to him is relevant, IMO, for a reason. :p
Frankly, women get the short end of the stick. DC didn't just screw over Batwoman's lesbian wedding, they screwed over a lesser known lesbian named Scandal Savage who was going to try and have a polygamous wedding with a stripper and a New God (Knockout) that could fight Superboy. Moreover, that trio was one of my favorite relationships in all of Comics.

Having done some googling, it seems like the execution of the idea of an all female avengers is a curiosity from a higher power to learn more about humans.

Personally, I don't care what the idea is, I'm somewhat optimistic that it has a shot in hell of giving more women opportunities to shine, and actually garner some respect. Having stumbled across the whole near 50% of comic fans are women statistic, I'm hoping that it helps show that despite a strong male dominance, there's worthwhile women in the Marvel Universe, too.

Green Arrow has a long running, popular show. Flash is hot on his heels. They've gotten a good bit of attention. Arrow's already got a line of figures out, including Black Canary (though she seems a far cry from what I know) so the attention is there. Not just in media, but in marketing. I don't doubt that we'll see figures from Flash's series soon.

Red Tornado, Captain Marvel, Martian Manhunter, etc. not so much. Not lately anyhow. Captain Marvel (At least the Shazam powered one) had a TV show back in the day, I'm sure, but I'm more of a mind to ask "what have you done for me lately" so WW's old show, or Marvel's old show doesn't really factor in.

I agree entirely that WW should be getting more attention, and it's just weird she doesn't get it. She'll have, likely, a bit part in the Batman vs Superman movie (And likely as Superman's love interest, if not Batman's), but a lot of others are said to be having a part in the movie further diminishing her importance, IMO.
DC's not terrible terrible at movies. They're just starting to find their way. Grim Dark, mainly. Which, IMO, WW is at least better suited for than Superman. That, and they're better at animated stuff, IMO.
Maybe if they somehow could transfer the spirit of their animated stuff to live action?

Honestly, what Wonder Woman marketing should capitalize on, IMO, is the way she approaches things. She does so as a warrior more than anything. She's not afraid to stab people with swords for one thing. You're right on her powerset being less than Superman's.
A pair of shows come to mind, actually.
Hercules: The Legendary journeys, and Xena: Warrior Princess. It's almost a perfect example of how to differentiate Superman from Wonder Woman. One's a super powered boyscout, the other a more skilled fighter not afraid to use weapons freely, and isn't quite as squeaky clean.
Mindset's not the same as powerset, I'll grant that.
Honestly, out of a lot of examples I listed, especially in the Bat, Spider, and Kryptonian family Wonder Woman is more likely to use what ever similar powers she has differently.

Well I guess we represent opposites sides of the coin on this one. You seem more optimistic and I got to admit, it is a bit contagious to read the obvious hopes you have in the idea. But I guess in this regard I still am the pessimist, in part because I find the idea of it being a gimmick as a tip of the hand as to their lack of value of the heroes as anything but novelty, and in part because recent pushes in a similar regard have been, lets say less then enthusiasm creating.

I guess I will keep an eye on it and see if it looks worth picking up. I just hope it doesn't just resort to being a political podium at the expense of story or characters as some others have expressed concern over. I can at least give some leeway to the idea of making the female heroes a freak show as the only means to get the publicity, even if I find it a bad business idea at it's core. If it turns them into talking heads at the expense of their character all together though, well, that removes even the small positive of getting them new fans if they are hated for not having character.
 

Azure23

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Ramzal said:
Azure23 said:
Nobody bats an eye at all male teams, why are people upset about this? Imagine if people were as cynical about those teams; "God stupid marvel trying to pander to all those meninist idiots with an obviously contrived all male team, hell I bet they'll spend the entire time fighting for better treatment in divorce courts and custody cases!"

Seriously, that's how silly you people sound to me. It's not like comic creators try to shake things up every once in awhile because they're tired of catering to the shareholder mandated status quo, nope, never happens.

Also someone up above mentioned Tigra, I am similarly upset at the lack of Tigra in this image.
Um... What all male team do you know of in Marvel barring the Illuminati? Marvel has a long standing history of having females in the majority of their teams and usually if they aren't in a certain team it's mainly because an actual point is being made about that group. I'm kind of convinced that people who are upset about this all female team are less silly than an opinion that there are "all male teams" that you seem to think are prominent in Marvel.

The only issue I have with A-force is that they limit themselves by being all female teams. Marvel teams were made by what each character brings to the table that another doesn't. Ironman chose Ms. Marvel (She's captain marvel now) because she is a natural born leader and a tactical thinker rather than the size of her chest. Cap put Quake on the avengers due to her being trained by Fury, resourceful, one of the most powerful precision meta-humans around and her know how of military operations. Misty Knight has saved Iron-Fist and Luke Cage's behinds several times.

Off the top of my head I can only think of THREE teams that have been exclusive to women and that's been the Illuminati, the Wrecking Crew, and The Sinister Six (Although recently that's changed.) The Masters of Evil has had women in their ranks, as has the Defenders, Hulks Warbound, X-factor, X-Force, X-men, Carnage's group of crazy people that I forget their name is, The Avengers, The Secret Avengers, The InHumans, MOST OF THE FIGHTERS IN WAKANDA ARE FEMALE, The Fantastic Four, West Coast Avengers, Force Works, The Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, A-Next, Alpha Flight, The Guardians of the Galaxy.

I'd like to point something out to people however.

THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME MARVEL HAS DONE AN ALL FEMALE TEAM!

Civil War registration brought on "The Woman Warriors." There's also BAD Girls Inc, Lady Liberators, a few more are lost to mind at the moment, but there was a group that Deadpool went against in Cable & Deadpool...but I can't recall their team name. Point is this isn't new. This isn't the first time and it isn't fresh or a shake of the status quo in the least. The only thing different here is that marvel is louder about their existence. That being said, I am in no way shape or form against this but I'm against people acting as if this is some giant new step that Marvel is making when it's not. It's a new team so lets just see where it goes and if it sucks it sucks.

But if it's good then it's good.
Woah there. I didn't really expect someone to respond to my cute little sarcastic post with a long form essay! Still, I guess I should be flattered.

Couple things.

1. I don't really read many Marvel books, I'm of the general opinion that most corporate comics are pointless and I don't intend to read a-force or any of secret crisis' ancillary books. It's just not my thing, creator owned comics all the way baby!

2. I didn't say all male marvel teams because I didn't mean all male marvel teams, I meant all male teams in general. Of which there have been a reasonable amount which generally go unremarked upon. And why bar the Illuminati? They're a group of super powerful men basically operating a shadow government that presides over the multiverse. Seems like maybe they could use a different perspective, or three.

3. I think these over reactions are silly because they're essentially complaining that one book no longer focuses on exactly the characters they want, irregardless of the fact that most of the avengers had their own runs (usually multiple) and will still have their solo books.

4. I absolutely do not think this is " some giant new step" from Marvel. It's fucking Marvel, it'll all be back to normal within ten or so issues. What I think is that this is a temporary focus shift. What I think is funny is that, because that focus shift happens to be towards female characters, and because said characters are (temporarily) sidelining avenger regulars, some people are losing their shit. Not most, some.

I won't say anything else because I've honestly already said most of this in posts directly after the one you quoted, but I hope this clears up my feelings on the "issue."
 

Wilco86

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Falterfire said:
Isalan said:
OT: Top left, is that Mrs. Iron Man (Iron Woman?). I ask in all seriousness, I'm not overly familiar with the Marvel Universe, and I have no idea who that is.
Probably Pepper Potts as Rescue.
Yep, seems Rescue, but I soooo hope it would be Bethany Cabe (aka Iron Woman, indeed), Tony's usual head of security.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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faefrost said:
It looks like Milo has discovered comic books as well as video games.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/02/14/female-thor-is-what-happens-when-progressive-hand-wringing-and-misandry-ruin-a-cherished-art-form/

I'll just leave this here and go make some popcorn.
That's what you get with these fake geek boy infiltrator SJWs. Probably doesn't even know Thor was a frog before.
 

Elijin

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The best part is that since its a universe wide crossover event, the likely answer to "where are all the men?" is 'busy running around in a dozen or so men only teams, saving everything.'

Which really just highlight how hilariously dumb so many of these complaints are.


Oh and bonus points because I've seen this mentioned a few times here....but if you create a non-white or female character, you're pandering? Everyone who has made statements along this line, thank you for vocally showing everyone whats wrong with comics and their community.