All JRPG needs to be liked again is to be gritty.

[Catie Caraco]

But if that is the case, why do people love to watch HBO? Why are games emulating ASOIAF?

Because people are multidimensional and can like more than one thing? Seriously, I am currently 3/4ths of the way through A Feast for Crows, so I'm pretty well versed in ASOIAF, though I did get into it because of the show. Dragon Age Origins is also one of my favorite games, which is "dark" and "gritty", I suppose, and much more ASOIAF than Tolkien. But that doesn't mean that I don't also greatly love Tolkien and Tolkien-esque video games. I also love bright, cheery video games like Kingdom Hearts (at least the first one. They're kinda losing me with incoherent story and jumping consoles like a cracked out kangaroo). If I'm in the mood for darkness and grit, I'll pick up ASOIAF and read it. If I want happy colorful stuff I'll play KH or watch MLP. If I wants splatter-gore I'll watch Supernatural. See how I can like all these different things? It's amazing, really.

And if you're looking for a dark JRPG, look no further than Final Fantasy Tactics. It is the hybrid child of MacBeth and Hamlet, only it's possessed by the devil. Boom. Done. Actually, I'mma boot up my emulator and play it RIGHT NOW.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

Remove or drastically tone down turn-based combat, random encounters, and ridiculously convoluted plots and I'd be first in line for a lot of JRPG releases.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Wow... when I read this thread title I was thinking it was satirical.

But no, you're actually serious. You honestly think the problem with JRPGs is that they don't have enough butchery, incest and backstabbing.

Dude... no. Just no.

My thoughts exactly.
I keep seeing this on the "most popular topics" list for the last week or so, and I keep thinking "How does this nonsense keep getting popular?"

There are plenty of bad or mediocre "gritty JRPGs".
I'm staring at my copy of Infinite Space, and recalling that the only good part of that game was the story.
(once you figure out the combat triangle, the game is basically over)

 

[Demongeneral109]

My only issue with JRPGs is that they are, usually, overly long. Even my favourite titles, like Final Fantasy 9, have this issue.

The dull moments in Jrpgs are EXCEEDINGLY dull. And they can drag on for hours at a time. One could argue that this contrasts to the peak moments in the story and gives them a greater gravitas. But then I would still say it just feels like shitty pacing for the sake of padding out the narrative.

Longevity is a great aspect in games. But rpgs are notorious for artificially padding things out segments just to reach the magical 30-60 hour play times the genre is famous (infamous) for. And Jrpgs seem to be the grandmasters at doing this.

I think another detriment to Jrpgs is that they are still pushing archaic gameplay mechanics and there has been little to no innovation within the genre as a whole. As they say, if it isn't broken don't fix it, but I know of one series that does this and gets tremendous amounts of flak for it. CoD. Think about that. The equivalent to the CoD series (or spunkgargleweewee) in Japan, is a Jrpg. Heck, there are plenty of Japanese Developers who are decrying how stagnant their industry has become.

Anyway. No, Grittiness is not what is needed. More efficient design ethics (and perhaps some better writing/less cliche heavy narratives) is what is needed to rejuvenate the genre. "Rejuvenate" being the optimal wording, since interest hasn't really diminished, but criticism has steadily increased.

i agree with you that some JRPG's (FFXIII in particular)did need to speed up the pacing a bit, but the real problem is that they spend too much time re-iterating characterization plot points or just plain old not advancing the plot. however, at least Square learned its lesson there as FFXIII-2 cut out a lot of the fluff and actually had a fairly focused narrative while still leaving room to expand and grow the experience and the world, so kudos to them. In my experience though, the characterization, as a result of the play-system is done in longish cutscenes, which is why the stories tend to drag on a bit... anyway, next point

Honestly, I can see why JRPG's have stagnated on the gameplay a bit... its kinda hard to alter a concept like a menu. This is where the Tales games and the newer final fantasys have done an excellent job, the ABT system and its ilk have added a certain sense of urgency in player action, as anyone who barely survived a fight via clutch heals can attest. While COD does get lambasted for the same mechanics every game, context is everything. JRPG's are less about play and more about characterization and story for the most part, while COD hinges on its gameplay, with minimal attention payed to the story. Each JRPG with similar mechanics has other draws, while COD deservedly gets ripped for being a 6o dollar expansion/map pack, with a poorly scripted single player to have somthing in the commercials.

I profoundly agree with you that grittyness would serve no benifet to the genre as a whole so ill sum up my ideas.

JRPG's tend to get caught up in over-long exposition for even basic character development and plot advancement at the cost of crushing any sense of pace and separating narrative moments to the point they seem disconnected. Cutting down redundancy or putting less fluff between scenes would aid narrative and character cohesion.

The gameplay does need some innovation, but the slow and steady changes seen in the various franchises are enough for fans of the genre, though they should feel free to experiment(Valkyria Chronicles was a fantastic example of experimental gameplay)

Really the biggest problem with JRPGs is unnecessary corridor and exploration fluff disconnected to the narrative and mild gamplay stagnation, to get to the core of the issue(to me anyway)

 

[Hyenatempest]

Well lets think for a moment why people hates JRPGs? Because it doesn't fit the current standards expected by the current attitude towards the fantasy genre.

But what do people expect from the fantasy genre now? To emulate ASOIAF, the political intrigue, the brutal cynicism and ultimately be as mature as possible. The funny thing is that JRPGs at one point was like that with Ogre Battle, Valkyrie Profile and Xenogears which served as the greats of JRPG. When JRPGs made the shift to making stuff lighter in content, WRPGs picked the ball up, using ASOIAF rather than Tolkien as their inspiration and has sold well compared to JRPGs which is becoming mostly kiddier.

So for JRPGs to be liked again, I recommend tossing in a bit of ASOIAF, some mature content and call us in the morning. We will dismiss the Turn Based stuff as part the genetic makeup of the genre. But the childishness is a disease that needs to be cured

I would not consider myself a huge fan of JRPG's. But it's not because of the lack of 'grittiness'.

Really what gets me about a large portion of them is that every character has to have exactly one (1) character trait. i really get tired of the 12 year old super-soldier girl bouncing up and down in excitement at having received the collector book. I would really appreciate if they would show some restraint on the characters. They don't have to be more mature or gritty, they just need to not freaking grate. A little subtlety would go a long way. Just have some more complex and less obvious personality traits.

Also, alot of jrpg's make themselves to complex, especially to newcomers to a series. Sometimes they add dozens of gauges and bars and meters that all dictate another mechanic...sometimes still adding them all the way to the end of an 80 hour journey. Not only do they do that, but at the core alot of them are just a simple game underneath it all, being button mashers or turn based rpg's. They would be better served just refining the mechanics and adding enemy variety and location variety rather than mechanic overload.

Honestly, I would love to see MORE whimsy in video games, I would just like them to be more restrained with the over-the-top in-you-face tropes, and with more refined gameplay.

 

[Callie]

using ASOIAF rather than Tolkien as their inspiration and has sold well compared to JRPGs which is becoming mostly kiddier.

Also, alot of jrpg's make themselves to complex, especially to newcomers to a series. Sometimes they add dozens of gauges and bars and meters that all dictate another mechanic...sometimes still adding them all the way to the end of an 80 hour journey.

Honestly, I would love to see MORE whimsy in video games, I would just like them to be more restrained with the over-the-top in-you-face tropes, and with more refined gameplay.

As a massive Tolkien and J-RPG fan, tolkien does relate very well to J-RPG's due to the depth they go into, not only in story, but in the 'gauges' and unique skill-sets often brought into J-RPGs.

I love games like the FF series much more-so than, say, the COD franchise. Each game has its own unique battle system and completely separate and in depth storyline for you to be enticed with, whereas COD is just the exact same game over and over. Because of the depth in the story and the time you spend perfecting different skills and customising your characters the way you want, you connect much more to the characters and storyline, making J-RPG's much more worth while in my opinion.

 

[gyrobot_v1legacy]

But if that is the case, why do people love to watch HBO? Why are games emulating ASOIAF?

Because people are multidimensional and can like more than one thing? Seriously, I am currently 3/4ths of the way through A Feast for Crows, so I'm pretty well versed in ASOIAF, though I did get into it because of the show. Dragon Age Origins is also one of my favorite games, which is "dark" and "gritty", I suppose, and much more ASOIAF than Tolkien. But that doesn't mean that I don't also greatly love Tolkien and Tolkien-esque video games. I also love bright, cheery video games like Kingdom Hearts (at least the first one. They're kinda losing me with incoherent story and jumping consoles like a cracked out kangaroo). If I'm in the mood for darkness and grit, I'll pick up ASOIAF and read it. If I want happy colorful stuff I'll play KH or watch MLP. If I wants splatter-gore I'll watch Supernatural. See how I can like all these different things? It's amazing, really.

And if you're looking for a dark JRPG, look no further than Final Fantasy Tactics. It is the hybrid child of MacBeth and Hamlet, only it's possessed by the devil. Boom. Done. Actually, I'mma boot up my emulator and play it RIGHT NOW.

People have constantly told me about Tactics and I agree with them since all of Matsuno's works are what I want to see more often with JRPGs. The only that can make it even better is if it had the HBO touch.

But what I see with JRPGs lately is the opposite, they are nowadays mostly clean and sanitized and in a sense self censoring. No longer want to see what will shock the audience into submission in viewing it as a memorable game that attempts to press the standards for content.

 

[Hyenatempest]

using ASOIAF rather than Tolkien as their inspiration and has sold well compared to JRPGs which is becoming mostly kiddier.

Also, alot of jrpg's make themselves to complex, especially to newcomers to a series. Sometimes they add dozens of gauges and bars and meters that all dictate another mechanic...sometimes still adding them all the way to the end of an 80 hour journey.

Honestly, I would love to see MORE whimsy in video games, I would just like them to be more restrained with the over-the-top in-you-face tropes, and with more refined gameplay.

As a massive Tolkien and J-RPG fan, tolkien does relate very well to J-RPG's due to the depth they go into, not only in story, but in the 'gauges' and unique skill-sets often brought into J-RPGs.

I love games like the FF series much more-so than, say, the COD franchise. Each game has its own unique battle system and completely separate and in depth storyline for you to be enticed with, whereas COD is just the exact same game over and over. Because of the depth in the story and the time you spend perfecting different skills and customising your characters the way you want, you connect much more to the characters and storyline, making J-RPG's much more worth while in my opinion.

Ideally yes, but I find that's not always the case. You sound as if you come from the angle of having quite the familiarity to them. But many of them can be quite intimidating to newcomers. If they want to gain more popularity, I would think it would be best to make the gauges, meters, and various other mechanics less intimidating to new players. And one of the points I was trying to make was that many of those meters aren't useful, or sometimes aren't even clearly explained. A game can only be so complex without turning people off. I love being able to customize the way I play, but that has nothing to do with game mechanics getting in the way of the actual game.

I should note that I'm ok with complex games, so long as they have a good learning curve, and the mechanics are both clear, and not shoehorned in specifically to add depth. Depth is good, as long as it's natural.

I would also like to note that I'm no fan of Call of duty. I rather enjoy the Tales of series, I would consider it one of my favorite franchises. But sometimes characters are overstated to the point of absurdity, and they need to reel it in. In example; any gay character in jrpg's. Specifically I remember the intro to Enchanted Arms. It's kinda offensive. Or look at the vast majority of female characters, many, hell most of them have been been over sexualized to an insane degree.

I want to point out Super Mario RPG. That was one of my favorite games of all time. It was a simple, turn based rpg. They added a new mechanic to spice things up, the timing of your attacks. It wasn't super complicated, but it was enough to keep you engaged. The characters were charming without being offensive, and without being 1-dimensional.

I'm not asking them to become Dragon age, I'm asking them to have female characters who's voices are not super high pitched, and wear a logical sense of clothes, gay/flamboyant characters that don't offend, and to not let mechanics get in the way of gameplay.

 

[Jandau]

No, no they don't. Not EVERYTHING needs to be gritty. In fact, grit is starting to get dull. When the trend first started it was refreshing, it was new, it made the fantasy tropes seem new again. But everything is gritty now. Non-gritty games are the minority. And if it's not dark, grim and gritty, it's usually retro.

I started playing TERA Online a few days ago and it surprised me to what extent I found the colorful fairytale aesthetic fresh and new again. I missed that, I really did. Gaming is drowning in a sea of grimdark and there's no need to make that sea even deeper...

As for JRPGs, they don't need to be grim, they just need to evolve, try new things with their gameplay and overall paradigm. WRPGs are regularly trying to move in new directions, and while it doesn't always work and not every change is for the better, they do provide a broader range of experiences gameplay-wise than most JRPGs do.

 

[Gigano]

...
At least it was brutally honest in light heartedness, but if you are not having that intention. Then making it like a HBO show will be the logical answer. Don't hold nothing back I say!

While everyone loves a good HBO show, variety is the spice of life. JRPG's fill a niche, and making them all into HBO material would fundamentally change them. Besides, much of the dark and gritty stuff from Japan doesn't make it over here either, and the stuff that does, such as Corpse Party, often see quite limited success.

 

[chuckdm]

I don't generally play JRPGs to begin with, but I also play very little on a console (and most of that is emulated) and they probably get fewer PC releases than any other genre.

That said, Radiant Historia seems to have done this well. That is, it's a story with a TON of intrigue, a lot of "grit" (in the sense that you can't save all the main characters, it's a cross between medieval fantasy and steampunk, etc.)

On the other hand, it seems to have been purpose-built as a western JRPG. That is, there's a character with guns, there's the heavy steampunk influence, and the writing shows virtually no traces of translation at all, as if the dialog was 100% native US English. In essence, if you charged nothing but the art style alone, you probably wouldn't even called it a JRPG to begin with.

About my only other experience with a JRPG was Lunar 2: Eternal Blue (back on the PSOne, heh) and it was equally awesome. But again, seems like it may have been written with a western audience in mind from the ground up. Also, not the same kind of grit. I mean, there's a lot of adversity, but the only characters that die are either enemies or "friends" that you kinda hate anyway.

Anyhow, as to OP, as someone who isn't really a JRPG fan to begin with, but doesn't hate them, I agree. I mean, they don't need "grit" in the ME3 sense. But if the next Final Fantasy was like Radiant Historia or Lunar I think it'd be better all around.

 

[DugMachine]

Mmm i'd say most WRPGs imitate Tolkien's work more than anything. I'm not a big fan of JRPGs but it's my understanding that they're just always going to be different from west, it's a culture thing.

I haven't really played an rpg that's like ASOIAF. Martin goes for a more politics driven story with realism (besides white walkers and dragons) as opposed to the "orcs, dwarves and humans/elves" theme that Tolkien started.

 

[aegix drakan_v1legacy]

In my humble opinion, JRPGs don't need to be grittier, they need to be less like a bad soap opera.

I couldn't stand FF13 for that reason. So goddamn cheesey with no selfawareness of said cheesiness.

Agreed.

There is a certain amount of cheesyness that can be tolerated. But it's best to go for less cheese than more because once you cross that threshhold...there is almost never no going back and the player is there (usually) shaking his head unable to take the rest of the game seriously.

For example, Xenoblade had it's hammy/cheesy moments, but overall it did things well and was one of the best JRPGs in YEARS.

Also, not to toot my own horn, but the RPGmaker game I just finished for another website's contest has very little "bad soap opera". Well...One of the endings is a little bit over the top, but that's about it. And to be fair, you feel kind of good seeing that ending, even if it does make you go "oh come on, really?"