All JRPG needs to be liked again is to be gritty.

[Dango]

Right, that's why all of Nippon Ichi's incredibly light hearted and comical RPGs are totally hated by everyone who plays them. And why the wildly successful Tales series is the grittiest thing around.

 

[TheDrunkNinja]

All I want is a little bit of scuff on the cheek when a character get's blown halfway to hell by a giant mechanized robot missile barrage of death.

Also, stop falling hundreds of thousands of feet only to get up completely unscathed with dazed grunt like you're Wile E Coyote.

And stop relegating the final boss to being this unstoppable, indestructible, unbeatable force of pure evil that NO ONE can beat and HUNDREDS have tried to destroy it but couldn't HOPE to beat it, and then have it defeated by the characters learning the power of friendship or believing in yourself or the heart of the cards and then just resorting to beating the shit out of it in turned-based succession like in EVERY OTHER GODDAMN FIGHT YOU HAVE IN THE GODDAMN GAME.

 

[RJ Dalton]

Can we please get off this bullshit notion that "gritty" makes everything good? It doesn't. Gritty is a story aesthetic, not a measure of quality. It's appropriate for some themes and stories, but not for others. Even when it is appropriate, you can do it in ways that suck so fantastically they're like a fictional version of black holes.

 

[rosac]

crisis core is pretty gritty, go play that. It's not the stereotypical tun based system either. It may suprise you.

 

[M0rp43vs]

All this talk about the importance/unimportance of grittiness suddenly has me wondering what would happen if someone made sickeningly sweet versions of Dark Souls and Gears of War.

I immediately thought of this, does this count?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raze's_Hell
or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mB6fq9Aadwk

Isn't that like saying that racing games need to have more dialogue and stealth sections?

Now question is- How you can hide tuned muscle car in shadows? I think neon, exhaust pipe and engine noise will give it away.

Ah, but see, that's what makes it more challenging. Though I'd like to see a stealth kill in that game.

OT:Like most here, I'm getting kinda sick of all these gritty games. Besides, if you think Jrpgs are annoying and wangsty now, wait till they try grittifying it.

Honestly, I'd like to see more creativity and imagination in Jrpgs today, which was the main reason I liked Jrpgs growing up. Kinda sick and tired of the cookie cutter characters which I liken to the Gritty, dark FPS problem in the west.

 

[Zeldias]

JRPGs are fucking splendid. The problem with them for me is the anime-ification of the shit. I miss shit like Okage, which was totally silly but carried it's silliness with a good measure of gravity; it became this theater of the absurd kind of thing. Or Chrono Trigger being able to run the gamut from serious and fearful to joyful and pleasant smoothly. FF6 was basically an epic. SMT: Nocturne where the world dies and you either resurrect it in your image or go kill time itself and end the cycle of rebirth. Lost Odyssey (even with those damn twins) was amazing for it's scope and emotional gamut, too.

Most JRPGs that are coming out now always seem to want to dip their toes in some kind of nonsense, whether it's getting all those silly anime tropes in the narrative (Persona 3 and 4), absurd and overly flashy cinematics (FF13), or pointlessly byzantine mechanics (Resonance of Fate, Ni No Kuni). I want the JRPG genre (which is a stupid ass name for it, since we're really referring to a set of systems incorporated into some RPGs, and not just where the games are from) to get away from over-the-top antics, empty, maudlin anime platitudes, absurd design decisions, and get back to telling me some good ass stories, good ass combat, and characters that I can enjoy (I don't care about me being able to relate to them; I mean, can anyone honestly tell me they relate to Mr. "Jeepers Creepers! Neato Frito Bandito!" himself, Oliver? Or Cloud "I'm a nutty emo who falsified his entire life" Strife?)

 

[DrOswald]

1. Define "JRPG" to me that means every RPG made in the country of japan. Your statements make no sense in regard to that entire category.

2. No. For example, I've heard people upset with recent Final Fantasy games because they were unfun not because they had bad stories. Gritty is not going to solve things there are more problems then thematics.

3. No Silver Bullets. No one thing is going to solve all of your problems... ever. Don't suggest that one simple change is going to solve all your woes.

TLDR: JRPG is the name for the particular genre of RPG that developed in Japan during the NES and SNES era. The term as used by gaming buffs today has nothing to do with location of production.

I could write a book on this. I will try to keep it short.

There is actually a great deal of confusion over the term JRPG. Because the genres of video games are not well defined and they are constantly being mixed together there is no set dictionary of terms. JRPG actually has no proper meaning. However, the term JRPG does have a particular and important casual meaning among gaming buffs.

JRPG is a historical term. Back in the day (late SNES and early PSX era) there were basically 2 main styles of RPGs. The style of RPG created depended pretty much entirely on where it was being developed. You had the RPGs being made in Japan and the RPGs being made in the west. Hence, JRPG (Japanese RPG) and WRPG (Western RPGs.) They both had complex progression systems and highly abstracted combat systems (which is generally what RPG meant back then) but that is where the similarities end. Mechanically these progression and combat systems played out very differently. There were also significant style differences.

JRPGs were heavily focused on a linear story with premade character. Playing a JRPG was like being an actor in a play. You participated in the story and added your own style to how that story played out, but you had no real influence over how the story progressed or ended.

Western RPGs went the exact opposite route with the story. The greatest possible emphasis was placed on player freedom. The promise of the WRPG is that you can go anywhere, you can say many things, you can do many things. You customize every aspect of your character. Your actions will directly influence the game world and how the story progresses.

Japanese RPGs tend to have far more fantastic elements while Western RPGs would tend to stay grounded. For example, there is a famous point in Final Fantasy VI where you can suplex a train. Final Fantasy IV had you traveling to the moon on an air ship and fighting giant robots in a world that was ostensibly medieval themed. WRPGs would tend to stay in a more grounded fiction, similar in style to the Tolkien books.

Thus, JRPG is actually a genre and does not refer to RPGs made in Japan. I will list a few JRPG examples for you so you can have a frame of reference:

Final Fantasy (all of the main line games except XI and XIV)
Chrono Trigger
Nier
Penny Arcade's On the Rain-slick Precipice of Darkness parts 1-3 (and soon 4)
Earthbound

 

[Ipsen]

Spoiler: snip

"Gritty" does not equal mature. Obligatory:



Because that whole era of media is what happened when people started thinking that way. A better standard for maturity would be intellectual and emotional range. You need to have moments of levity to complement the grave ones, and you need to have whimsy to complement highmindedness. (Persona does well and FF13 does poorly on this front imo.)

I'd pick Dragon Age: Origins and FF6 as a WRPG and a JRPG that did this splendidly. Both feature an interesting, diverse cast of characters that all have their highs and lows and all have complex, multi-faceted personalities. Leliana's romanticism and apparent girlishness underscore her checkered past and make her reaction to the Sacred Urn thing far more compelling. Same with Oghren's boisterous oafishness and the meeting with Branka. Locke's whole roguish treasure hunter shtick does the same for his relationship with Rachel. Celes's personal growth and passion makes her suicide attempt far more tragic than if she'd been moping around the whole game.

Compare to Deus Ex: HR or the Witcher, where everyone's varying shades of "smug asshole," or FF13, where everyone's whiny and miserable all the time.

I've never read/seen Game of Thrones, so I can't really comment on whether it fits your criteria for "maturity" or mine. But yeah. A mature work is deep and complex, and works that just go for "gritty" tend to be shallow and immature. (Unless your definition of maturity is the same as the ESRB's...) Gear of War is gritty as hell, but it's one of the most immature games of this console gen.

Yea, like this!

+

I personally don't think JRPGs need something like 'grit' to connect to an audience of this age, I'll just vote that the stories just need teeth, so to speak. I miss a sense of fear in JRPs; this peaked for me in FF7 as a kid (then again, I may be a bad judge; I had fear issues with Donkey Kong Country too); I found the secrecy and periodic violence of sephiroth somewhat unsettling, but definitely attention-grabbing. The most recent game that has brought this feeling would be Fire Emblem: Awakening, by mechanic of permanent character death. Whether prepared or (much more often) unprepared for a character death, 'twas a shock, since there's a good amount of character exposition between themselves...if they live through the next battle.

Overall, if JRPGs could stand to change, I'd be intrigued to see a developer put some more emphasis into elements of mystery, or perhaps horror. But who knows, but if we're going to continue stereotypes, one of the last things I want to see continue is 'JRPGs' catering to western audiences. In all seriousness, a JRPG should cater to the national audience it is developed within; I'll wager it lends to the story. You leave it to 'other' audiences' discretion to enjoy them.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

But what do people expect from the fantasy genre now? To emulate ASOIAF, the political intrigue, the brutal cynicism and ultimately be as mature as possible. The funny thing is that JRPGs at one point was like that with Ogre Battle, Valkyrie Profile and Xenogears which served as the greats of JRPG. When JRPGs made the shift to making stuff lighter in content, WRPGs picked the ball up, using ASOIAF rather than Tolkien as their inspiration and has sold well compared to JRPGs which is becoming mostly kiddier.

So for JRPGs to be liked again, I recommend tossing in a bit of ASOIAF, some mature content and call us in the morning. We will dismiss the Turn Based stuff as part the genetic makeup of the genre. But the childishness is a disease that needs to be cured

I... wow.

First off, A Song of Fire and Ice is only meh. I enjoy the show (Game of Thrones) but the books are a giant snooze fest.

Secondly, I don't know what kind of crack you are smoking if you think that Xenogears (the best RPG ever made) in any resembles Low Fantasy. There are freaking MECHA in Xenogears - hence the title. There are magical spells (Ether).

A Song of Fire and Ice is the definition of Low Fantasy - magic is rare and terrifying, Dragons are extinct (to start with anyway), and there are no races besides humans.

Most RPGs - including Western RPGs - are set in a High Fantasy universe (which has spellcasters as semi-common, has Elves and/or Dwarves of some sort, and plentiful dragons) based vaguely on Dungeons and Dragons.

By the way, Tolkien is actually "Middle Fantasy" - it has dragons and spellcasters, but both are rare.

Dragon Age is High Fantasy - plentiful spellcasters, multiple races, and tons of Dragons. And it did just fine.

Xenogears is a Sci-Fi-Fantasy hybrid. It contains magic that is explained by science, Mecha and other modern devices, Dragons, and multiple races (Humans, Demi-Humans, and Chu-Chu), so it falls on the High Fantasy side of the spectrum. Plus, again Mecha.

Finally, Xenogears is fairly light hearted for most of the game. It has that perky JRPG feel to it - and then things go to shit. Compare to FF7 which is darker and grittier to start with.

So yeah... not helpful. Besides, JRPGs of late have often been darker (Dark Souls, for instance). As a fan of JRPGs, I have absolutely no interest in playing those games, because I want to play an ACTUAL JRPG that feels like one.

You know what the best JRPG to come out lately is? Xenoblade. Which is light-hearted (Friendship is a major mechanic) and has a fan-service animal ala Chu-Chu as one of the playable characters.

So yeah, your theory is wrong and makes no sense. Also, learn about what you're talking about (Low Fantasy vs High Fantasy) before you open you mouth and insert your foot.

 

[gyrobot_v1legacy]

snip

Really, as people have already pointed out, your words are just what you think would make you like JRPGs. From what I have read on this first page of comments and from experience in the real world and vast amounts of internet surfing, JRPGs still get a lot of love and ones that become loved are still being made.

Every game doesn't have to become gritty and adult to be liked.

Well lets think for a moment why people hates JRPGs? Because it doesn't fit the current standards expected by the current attitude towards the fantasy genre.

Seriously, statements like this make me sick.

First, you need to define who, because just saying "people" is an encompassing word that when used without a qualifier, usually means the speaker is saying "everyone". All you have to do is add the word "some" in front of "people", and maybe go on to say the reasons you, like "some people", don't like JRPGs.

Second, that second sentence is blatantly loaded and one-sided, and because of that, it is wrong. There is no one attitude towards the fantasy genre(Unless you think your attitude/view is the only one. Then I have to ask, why did you even make such a thread if you think such a thing?)

I also ask, what current standards? But of course I'm guessing you are referring to your standards that relate to your attitude on the fantasy genre.

There is no one true mold or even an evolving standard mold to making JRPGs/RPGs, because most JRPGs/RPGs do things different with each game. Let the creators create what they want to make, let the people that like such things have what they like. You have your games, and other people have their games. Everything doesn't have to be the same, because the same thing day in and day out is boring, standards and molds are boring.

I for one don't watch one type of show forever, read only one type of book, or play only one type of game. I watch, read, and play many types. I would say to you need to broaden your horizons and find enjoyment in new ways of doing things, and if you don't want to do that, don't try and force your likes on other groups to change things to your liking.

Finally, I will add that your last statement is incredibly wrong. Childishness isn't a disease, it is just an aspect in some games, and many people like games that aren't serious. Try using your statement compared to other forms of media. What you said is like saying that we need to stop making children's books, movies, shows, etc, because the world needs to just grow up.

Even though some childishness in some games is that way because children play them, adult gamers still like to play them like that too, just as adult readers/viewers still like to read/watch things that are geared towards children.

Life as an adult doesn't all have to be responsibility, blood, guts, sex, hardship, and tears. It can also be whimsical, free, cute, cuddly, heartwarming, and laugh inducing happiness.

When I talk about the people, I am talking about the general audience who isn't a JRPG fan yet, they like some sense of familiarity. One trend nowadays in media entertainment is to do adult retellings (Snow White and the Huntsman, G&G Witch hunters) or be as far away from escapism as possible (Craig Bond, NBSG, Walking Dead). Escapism is seen as a negative in entertainment at the moment, from people complaining about Overstrike being too "kiddy" (cue the Fuse Gritty reboot) to the bashing of JRPGs, there is obviously a lack of appeal in terms of escapism and more appeal towards "validating entertainment" aka stuff that makes people count their blessings.

And for angsty characters we can care little about that, the problem is how they cope. Do they cope by crying about it or do they end up like Jim Raynor, a man betrayed by the one who turned the revolution into a despotic regime who was content to leave him alive as a pariah, a man who lost his girlfriend who becomes a psychopath who achieves her dreams of revenge. How did he cope? Substance abuse and for other guys like him, maybe a couple session of carefree sex.

All while brewing his own means to snap back at those who wronged him.

 

[Burst6]

When I talk about the people, I am talking about the general audience who isn't a JRPG fan yet, they like some sense of familiarity. One trend nowadays in media entertainment is to do adult retellings (Snow White and the Huntsman, G&G Witch hunters) or be as far away from escapism as possible (Craig Bond, NBSG, Walking Dead). Escapism is seen as a negative in entertainment at the moment, from people complaining about Overstrike being too "kiddy" (cue the Fuse Gritty reboot) to the bashing of JRPGs, there is obviously a lack of appeal in terms of escapism and more appeal towards "validating entertainment" aka stuff that makes people count their blessings.

Wasn't Overstrike changed because of focus groups? From what i found so far they changed it because some 12 year olds in their focus groups thought it was too kiddy. Besides, plenty of games are popular without being gritty. Borderlands, TF2, pokemon, every single Nintendo game, most mobile games. This is going to be a huge generalization but fuck it. When most developers make "gritty" games they usually make it to appeal to immature people, because kids like games like call of duty. The type of people who like actual well made gritty won't be the mass audience. Look at Witcher 2. It sold decently well, but it's still considered very niche.


There are a few things i'd like changed in the JRPG genre, but tone and aesthetics isn't it.

And for angsty characters we can care little about that, the problem is how they cope. Do they cope by crying about it or do they end up like Jim Raynor, a man betrayed by the one who turned the revolution into a despotic regime who was content to leave him alive as a pariah, a man who lost his girlfriend who becomes a psychopath who achieves her dreams of revenge. How did he cope? Substance abuse and for other guys like him, maybe a couple session of carefree sex.

All while brewing his own means to snap back at those who wronged him.

Never played starcraft, but from your description i would choose neither. I'd like someone who does a bit of both. I got bored of the macho vengeance filled invincible action hero who lets nothing phase him after the second god of war game.

 

[klaynexas3]

When I talk about the people, I am talking about the general audience who isn't a JRPG fan yet, they like some sense of familiarity. One trend nowadays in media entertainment is to do adult retellings (Snow White and the Huntsman, G&G Witch hunters) or be as far away from escapism as possible (Craig Bond, NBSG, Walking Dead). Escapism is seen as a negative in entertainment at the moment, from people complaining about Overstrike being too "kiddy" (cue the Fuse Gritty reboot) to the bashing of JRPGs, there is obviously a lack of appeal in terms of escapism and more appeal towards "validating entertainment" aka stuff that makes people count their blessings.

And for angsty characters we can care little about that, the problem is how they cope. Do they cope by crying about it or do they end up like Jim Raynor, a man betrayed by the one who turned the revolution into a despotic regime who was content to leave him alive as a pariah, a man who lost his girlfriend who becomes a psychopath who achieves her dreams of revenge. How did he cope? Substance abuse and for other guys like him, maybe a couple session of carefree sex.

All while brewing his own means to snap back at those who wronged him.

So in other words, you just want all games to look and feel the same? Well, I guess the discussion is over, there can be nothing more said here. We can all go home, our work here is done.

 

[Something Amyss]

I mean, there's nothing wrong with a dark story, but it's not a standard every piece of fiction in the world needs to meet.

I agree. I likes me some gritty stories. But I also like variety. I don't get why people need so much sameness to enjoy games. A bright colourful world? KILL IT WITH FIRE!

 

[Vausch]

No.

They need either more efficient storytelling and pacing, better or more fast-paced combat systems, quicker mechanics introductions, more non-linear worlds, or less completely scripted moments that make you feel like you're just endlessly trudging from one place to the other in a manner set up by the developer so you'll be guaranteed to be at the perfect level to face the next boss when you get there.

Not saying it's an all or nothing with those, those are just the big complaints I have about most of them.

 

[Misterian]

I like to think that JRPG's are good as long as they at least have good story and characters, at least that's my idea of a good JRPG.

I know games like Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy VI, Rasphony: A Musical Adventure, and Lunar: Silver Star Story stand among some of the most successful JRPG's becuase they focus well on story and character development.

I don't see how making them 'gritty' would make games like those better, the light tones that JRPG's are known for are the bread and butter of those games.

That would be if Bioware decided to have a Dragon Age game that doesn't have fantasy elements deconstructed, or if Mass Effect didn't have aliens, or if the Legend of Zelda games had none of the tools is known for and gave you literally only the sword and shield to work with.

Need I go on?

 

[jpoon]

JRPG's make me cringe these days. If they weren't made strictly for teens or 12 year old's they might be tolerable. I can't stomach the way they act and the way they talk any more, maybe 15+ years ago. WRPG's typically have them beat in almost every circumstance, minus one or two.

I think Disgaea is the ONLY one that I can possibly tolerate any more, don't ask me why.

 

[Flaery]

Yeah... no. The one and only reason I like JRPG's still is because they usually aren't gritty or macabre. In fact, games really need to lay off the gritty realism because gaming is starting to feel more like a job I hate and less like a fun activity. It's the reason I still buy Nintendo products, they supply light-hearted, fun and visually appealing games amidst the lodes of amorphous, black bulk that other developers seem to be putting out.

 

[lacktheknack]

So... many... acronyms...

Anyways, I disagree. There's lots of space for the Fables out there, so there should be plenty of room for the light-hearted fantasy JRPGs. The most common complaint I hear about modern-day Final Fantasy isn't "it's too bright", it's "it's too soap-opera like". Maybe if we dropped the most common anime tropes and got better translation and script, they'd be perfectly enjoyable in their current aesthetic.

 

[FFP2]

While I'm not a large fan of FF13, I'd rather play that, than play GTA4. Largely because I dislike GTA as a whole. :x

I liked FF13 but I can see why other people don't. It's definitely not the best FF game.

EDIT: I'm glad that there are so many people giving such great reasons as to why JRPGs should stay exactly the way they are

 

[gyrobot_v1legacy]

When I talk about the people, I am talking about the general audience who isn't a JRPG fan yet, they like some sense of familiarity. One trend nowadays in media entertainment is to do adult retellings (Snow White and the Huntsman, G&G Witch hunters) or be as far away from escapism as possible (Craig Bond, NBSG, Walking Dead). Escapism is seen as a negative in entertainment at the moment, from people complaining about Overstrike being too "kiddy" (cue the Fuse Gritty reboot) to the bashing of JRPGs, there is obviously a lack of appeal in terms of escapism and more appeal towards "validating entertainment" aka stuff that makes people count their blessings.

And for angsty characters we can care little about that, the problem is how they cope. Do they cope by crying about it or do they end up like Jim Raynor, a man betrayed by the one who turned the revolution into a despotic regime who was content to leave him alive as a pariah, a man who lost his girlfriend who becomes a psychopath who achieves her dreams of revenge. How did he cope? Substance abuse and for other guys like him, maybe a couple session of carefree sex.

All while brewing his own means to snap back at those who wronged him.

So in other words, you just want all games to look and feel the same? Well, I guess the discussion is over, there can be nothing more said here. We can all go home, our work here is done.

I want morally complex characters, to make people question themselves in life. To show how sometimes we are not steadfast and well-adjusted and altruistic but can be petty, self destructive and self loathing. Western gaming is not afraid to give extremely fatal flaws to the heroes in general and make them pay dearly for it.

If a hero must angst, they will do it through rage and decadence rather than crying about it