Am I the only person who kind of hates Valve?

[Something Amyss]

Simple because valve don't make bad ports, they make fine ports which get gutted by the console manufacturers. You have to affix the blame to the person creating the problem.

You know, when I was 16, there was this urban legend that Wal-Mart actually manually edited their CDs themselves.

This is just about as funny, and only slightly more believable.

 

[Risingblade]

I'm indifferent about them. They haven't released any games I really enjoyed so meh

 

[-Samurai-]

"This is mostly because they just don't seem to know how to make a console game if their lives depended on it." This line right here made me laugh out a tiny tear. Who cares? They are a PC developer.

A PC developer that has some console releases as well. It doesn't matter if they primarily develop for PC, the second the throw out a console release, they're also a console developer. And that makes them eligible for every complaint and piece of criticism that every other console developer gets.

OT: I don't hate Valve. I just don't fellate them like everyone else. They're a decent developer with a few simply "ok" titles, that take a different business approach in their goal for profit. Most people are stupid enough to think that Valve cares about them, when they really only pretend to so that they can get you as a life-time customer. Not that there's anything wrong with that. It's one helluva business model, and it obviously works.

 

[MightyRabbit]

As do Valve's "spotty" console record, they are primarily a PC developer, and as for their long production times, they are running Steam as well as creating all their new games and DLC and maintaining all their old games. They've got a lot to do, and they do consistently turn out quality games. Can anybody name an unequivocally *bad* Valve game?

Ricochet?

Also, why is it acceptable for Valve to be primarily a PC developer and make bad ports for consoles, but when a primarily Console developer makes a bad port for the PC, the developer is the child of Satan and should die?

I don't think it's a general thing, I think it's Valve specific. They've accumulated a lot of goodwill with their games, their DLC policies, their honesty and Steam. People are willing to forgive a lot.

And I've played console ports of Portal, L4D2 and Half-Life 2 and while they weren't of highest quality, I found them to be just fine. Maybe their other games are poorly ported? Or their console online environment is bad? Or there's more bugs/lower graphical quality?

Maybe my standards just aren't as high. I'm not trying to defend their console record here or flame anybody, but I genuinely do not know why people are saying Valve has lousy console ports? It's a genuine question, so if somebody could answer me without all the usual name calling and hyperbole, I'd really appreciate it.

 

[repeating integers]

As do Valve's "spotty" console record, they are primarily a PC developer, and as for their long production times, they are running Steam as well as creating all their new games and DLC and maintaining all their old games. They've got a lot to do, and they do consistently turn out quality games. Can anybody name an unequivocally *bad* Valve game?

Ricochet?

Also, why is it acceptable for Valve to be primarily a PC developer and make bad ports for consoles, but when a primarily Console developer makes a bad port for the PC, the developer is the child of Satan and should die?

I don't think it's a general thing, I think it's Valve specific. They've accumulated a lot of goodwill with their games, their DLC policies, their honesty and Steam. People are willing to forgive a lot.

And I've played console ports of Portal, L4D2 and Half-Life 2 and while they weren't of highest quality, I found them to be just fine. Maybe their other games are poorly ported? Or their console online environment is bad? Or there's more bugs/lower graphical quality?

Maybe my standards just aren't as high. I'm not trying to defend their console record here or flame anybody, but I genuinely do not know why people are saying Valve has lousy console ports? It's a genuine question, so if somebody could answer me without all the usual name calling and hyperbole, I'd really appreciate it.

Actually, I've played the Xbox port for Half-Life 2. It was just fine (probably easier than the PC version when it came to the first-person platforming, since the gamepad is much better for movement). I get the impression the main complaints are about TF2, which has been FAR behind the PC version for a looong time now.

 

[purplesuits]

From what I've seen, and heard, yes Valve does want to make their DLC free. Which is a wonderful thing, but is not a lasting or sustainable business model. The opportunity cost of spending time making DLC, paying your employees for their man hours, rent, bills, and all other expenses for something that's net income can only really be measured by the possibility of more people buying the game for the prospect of free DLC (A statistic that is almost down right impossible to keep track of). It would make sense they're not trying that hard to get DLC going. Especially when they're mainly a PC developer, they could nuke money out of people with DLC cause there's a much higher chance your PC is hooked to the internet than your console. I mean my console is like 8 feet from my ethernet chord, I just keep it unhooked cause I'm lazy, kills feung shuai and I don't really want to spend the money on wireless adaptors.

What I find kind of funny is that Bill Gates has stated that he would donate 90% of his wealth to charities, so does that mean by offering free DLC you're taking away from the children?

 

[hazabaza1]

Who cares? They are a PC developer.

If you're going to port a game you can at least have the decency to keep it up to the original standard.
Of course, I've never played a Valve game on a console, so I'm just sayin'.

OT: No you are never the only one yadda yadda.

 

[tzimize]

Afaik the reason they have trouble with DLC is because MS has decided that ALL DLC shall cost money on xbox live NO MATTER WHAT. And Valve wants to give us their DLC free.

Yeah, they want to give it to us for free, but they can't. Every now and then maybe but not every time. They need to get over that and just release stuff for $7/10. I'd rather just pay then wait a year for them to try negotiating with MS before giving up and either releasing the DLC for money anyway or just not releasing the DLC at all.

Let me introduce you to an awesome concept called; Principles.

"This is mostly because they just don't seem to know how to make a console game if their lives depended on it." This line right here made me laugh out a tiny tear. Who cares? They are a PC developer.

A PC developer that has some console releases as well. It doesn't matter if they primarily develop for PC, the second the throw out a console release, they're also a console developer. And that makes them eligible for every complaint and piece of criticism that every other console developer gets.

OT: I don't hate Valve. I just don't fellate them like everyone else. They're a decent developer with a few simply "ok" titles, that take a different business approach in their goal for profit. Most people are stupid enough to think that Valve cares about them, when they really only pretend to so that they can get you as a life-time customer. Not that there's anything wrong with that. It's one helluva business model, and it obviously works.

Oh, no. I hold no delusions of Valves love for me. They are in the business to make money. Fortunately for them, a lot of developers/publishers nowadays act like complete fucking retards (Ubisoft, Activision to name a couple). When standing next to an idiot its easy to seem smart.

I personally love Valves way of doing things. They have brought some me some of my favorite games, they have provided me with a great platform to buy games digitally (often at fantastic prices) and they still manage to treat their customer base as people.

The recent free mapping tools for Portal 2 is an example. Half life 1 (and its tools) gave us gems like Action Half life and counter strike (not to mention the original HL-DM)...who knows...maybe other developers will remember what a fantastic resource fans can be sometime again. Both for their PR and their games/profits.

 

[Blind Sight]

I honestly couldn't care less about their console record, they've always been PC developers and hate the hoops Microsoft makes them jump through for new console content. I like having a great company focusing on the PC, considering that so many PC gamers get shafted by lazily done or poorly optimized PC ports of console games regularly (not to mention developers who are pushing for no mods, no dedicated servers, plenty of DRM, etc.). Despite the fact that steam is itself a form of DRM, it is at least one that acknowledges a cost-benefit model. "Ah man, I've got to use steam to play this game?" "Yep, but as a result you have access to a vast library of games that are constantly going on sale to save you money."

I don't believe Valve are saviors or gods or some such, I just think that they really know how to effectively develop for the PC. And in today's market, I really need that. Even their long development times don't bother me, mostly because I'm insanely patient and also don't think of gaming as anything but a hobby, not a lifestyle.

 

[StriderShinryu]

I don't hate Valve. I do, however, quite dislike their ravenous cultish fanbase that believes everything they do is amazing, perfect and beyond reproach.

 

[Smooth Operator]

Well the old ports were actually pretty scummy, Gabe was ranting on and on how he doesn't want to develop for consoles and then he just goes and lets someone butcher their product and sell half arsed bullshit...

On the DLC tho:
- MS and Sony want all bigger updates to be payed for and that suddenly means Valves free DLC will cost them a big chunk of money if they want to just give it away
- or they could go charge you the money they loose and look like money grubbing bastards because others got it for free
- and however they get the DLC across they would have just payed to get fucked by these systems... as a dev I wouldn't do it on principle
- why does everything with Valve take so long? It seems the company is trapped in a huge time dilation field and HL3 dev team got trapped right in the middle... my guess is as good as anyone elses

Some discontent I do have on my own:
- Steam is getting worse with every day, instead of giving you a better gaming experience it's just a self indulgent cumbersome ad spam fest
- the bloody micro transactions, you intend to sell single items for more then entire games cost... what the shit is wrong with you

 

[bauke67]

I probably wouldn't mind them if certain games based around solving puzzles using portals, that they give away for free, would actually work on my pc, instead of just stopping right after the intro clip before the main menu.
(Might be my pcs fault too, but it's still frustrating)

 

[GameMaNiAC]

To answer your question: No, you are not the only one. You are never the only one.

 

[DarkRyter]

You're never the only one. I'm saying that because everyone else is.

Yeah, they take a long time. Yeah, their console ports aren't the best around.

But their DLC is free, they take a long time because they have high standards for their final product, and they, nor their primary target audience, really care much about consoles.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

While I enjoyed HL, HL2, and TF2, I feel that VALVe rests on its laurels way too damn much. Steam is an ok platform, but I am not a fan of digital only... I prefer to have a physical copy, that way I don't ever have to worry that the games I spent money on won't evaporate one day when said corporation decides to change its policies. I for one do not believe in VALVe as a beneficent being. They're just as addicted to profits as anyone else out there. The redux of TF2 with the hats was a marketing scheme of devilish proportions.
Y'know I wonder how people can justify their "I won't pay for DLC thats on the disc" and uphold VALVe's policy of selling items that you can unlock on your own or craft yourself. "Sure you can unlock it, if you're patient... but hey we've got it here for a few bucks and you can have it now..." That sounds like the fucking devil the church used to warn me about... lols
But in all honesty, I have little problem with VALVe, I just wonder why they get a free pass and are upheld by a lot of people as the Patron Saint of Games. They might not be EA or Activision, but they're not so clean either. How long have they promised HL2 EP3 and just didn't bother?
Oh and Portal wasn't that good either.

 

[Vigormortis]

"quoted for reference and snipped for length"

I feel I need to clarify a few things in your post OP, for you seem to be a bit ill-informed.

Firstly, Bethesda is a publisher. They contract developers, even in house, to make their games. Also, I'd hardly consider Gearbox and Infinity Ward/Treyarch to be "independent". They are pretty much at the beck-and-call of their publishers. Sure, they have some creative freedom in design choices, but that's about it.

Second, Valve's console releases thus far, have been admittedly hit or miss. However, I fail to see how Portal 2, Left 4 Dead 2, or even Left 4 Dead have been "failed console ports". They were pretty fantastic ports, if you ask me. Portal 2 especially. The Orange Box was an utter failure but that's due to two reasons.

1: Valve was still "new" to the console scene and didn't have the logistics in place for proper support or development.

2: The Orange Box was ported to consoles by another developer. One hired by EA. (yeah, EA)

Now, to address your issue of DLC, development cycle, etc.

The one thing you have to keep in mind is, Valve isn't like the other developers you're praising in the sense that they aren't comprised of legions of employees (usually 500+) and aren't backed by some high-profile publisher. Their entire employee list adds up to something between 250 and 300. And that includes their PR department, front desk people, janitors, and all non-designer/non-programmer employees. As such, given that they are often working on several projects at once, including Steam, and that they have a general design philosophy of "it's done when it's done", it sometimes takes time to get a finished product released. (Portal 2 had a design team of only 28) Try to remember, they're currently working on (announced) Dota 2, CS:GO, Steam, Portal 2 DLC, L4D2 DLC, Source Engine updates, and TF2 updates.

Bearing this in mind, you can start to understand why the new Left 4 Dead 2 map pack is taking so long. Though the maps have already been out on PC, in some form, for months. The only map still in "beta" is the new community map called Cold Stream. The rest, the L4D1 maps, have been ported over and extensively tested by the community as a whole. That was their plan from the start.

You see, they may be old L4D maps, but they don't port over flawlessly. Despite what some detractors will say, Left 4 Dead 2 is drastically different from Left 4 Dead on many levels. Valve essentially went in and altered, tweaked, and rebuilt the game from the ground up. As such, porting a map over (or rather, over 20 of them) isn't an easy venture. A lot of the scripts, entity spawns, etc, that worked fine in the old map may not function at all in the new version. Likewise, as I had said just above, they released the maps one at a time on PC, in beta form, so the community players could try them out and help to test for bugs.

This is why it's taken so long for the DLC to hit consoles. They're beta testing, porting, and working to complete the thing with the help of the players. When the entire package is complete, bug tested, and patched it'll hit the consoles. I've also heard that they're trying to find a way to get it released for free on the 360. I imagine they may have some new agreement worked out with Microsoft, seeing as the Portal 2 DLC is free as well. (also bear in mind that your lauded Infinity Ward map packs contain about 4 maps. this L4D DLC will house around 24. it's easier to make 4 small maps in a few months that it is to convert and bug test 20+)

All that said, even though I am an avid fan, I will never give Valve a "pass". Just because they made some of my favorite games does not mean they're completely incapable of making mistakes or making bad design choices.

For example, while I still love TF2 and have no qualms about the Mann Co store, I do have some issue with the promo-items they've been making. I don't have issue with their existence, per se, just that they're going a bit overboard with the sheer number of promo-items being made for new game releases. It's the one thing they need to tone down a bit.

Of course, all of this is moot. Most won't ever bother reading this and I can all but guarantee this thread will just turn into a flame war.

Valve isn't my favourite dev by a long shot.

They take forever to release games, and while those games are usually of a very good quality, they don't rank high up on my list.

They are, however, the most honest devs around and give all their DLC away for free (not including hats and other optional aesthetic choices).

I have yet to be fed any kind of bullshit from Valve, they have always been very honest about the way they do things, and for that they have my respect.

Wow. I can honestly say it's surprising to see an opinion like this. Usually, all I ever see is unfettered, fan-boy-ish praise or fervent, vitriolic hatred.

Still, it's refreshing to see someone who "gets it". It's perfectly reasonable to not be a fan of Valve's games. They may just not be your cup of tea, so to speak. But, to call them a bad developer, a lazy developer, or some such thing is irrational and often just stupid. They are by no means some faultless paragon of game design, but they certainly are WAY ahead of the curve.