An ethical question involving adoption

[4li3n]

Your assumptions lend your case no strength.

We're obviously not going to agree, so let's drop it. Enjoy your day.

Well it's hard to agree with someone that seems incapable to even consider any implications of his own narrow view of a situation... i might as well try convincing a binary system that 2 exists. OMG, are you Skynet...


And BTW, the law in any civilised society allows for circumstances to influence punishment and how a situation should be handled. Kinda why premeditated murder and a crime of passion are treated differently.

 

[4li3n]

I'm curious to reading your answers. For now I'll stick with: "What about the rights and what's best for the parents?"

If they're good parents what's best for them is what's best for the child...


There's a reason King Solomon went with cutting the kid in two... logically it doesn't really prove 100% who the real mother was, but it did show without a doubt who the better person was and the kid belonged with the better person no matter who's DNA he had...

 

[thebolt]

So, who else want to go back to when Dulcinea is 13-14 and force him to live with new parents that he's never seen before? See how he likes it.

People adjust. I doubt that a child would be so maladjusted that they couldn't get used to the idea of new guardians. Not to mention by early teenage years, maturity is starting to develop. The child wouldn't be as dependent on their parents for emotional support and stability at 13 or 14 as opposed to a much younger age between 5 and 10. Hell, you get some minors in their early teens who are more independent than people in their late teens.

The child is a minor. All rights reside with any guardian(s). A crime was committed when the child was kidnapped and deserves the full force of the law. It will be up to the court to decide how lenient the sentencing should be.

Not that I disagree with you...but the kid being described is EXACTLY the kid I would expect to be that maladjusted. Was kidnapped at birth and finds out they've been living with a kidnapper for 13 years? That'd fuck me up FOREVER.

 

[LuckyClover95]

Shared custody?
I saw that show! I also don't remember what it was called. I remember very specifically the kidnap parents and child having mugs with their names on.
And about social issues.... yeah. There's a pretty defined class barrier. I go to a fairly middle class school but went to middle and first school in a "rough" neighborhood and my family are working class so I have influences from both classes, and there is a very set separation of each class.

I think it was called "Torn" or somthing like that, anyway the scenario I presented there isnt 100% the same, but similar as to what I can remember

anyway yeah at least in Britan it seems that way, it seems on TV most lower class british youths would bash you up as soon as look at you, however thats probably not true

Yeah, it's not true. When I said class divide divide I didn't mean it was violent.

 

[Doom-Slayer]

-

I don't think leaving a child in the care of a criminal who has demonstrated their willingness to break the law and steal a life from parents, hiding their actions and living a lie for however many years is all that sound in reasoning.

And as I just said. Law has absolutely nothing to do with ethics and morality. They are separate systems after all, law is created to control and maintain order so society can function at its best. Morality is an intuitive and if I may say so, objective system(that's a different argument for a different topic)

And I'm not saying your wrong, morally speaking it is strange to leave the child in the care of a kidnapper, but I don't believe the action of physically taking them away, completely changing their life and giving them to their "real" parents is a better one. What if the child actually loves and cares about their "new" parent, because yes the action of kidnapping is wrong, but reversing a wrong action isn't always the right thing to do.

 

[joemegson94]

I tell you who you don't want get involved with this: Wheatley.

 

[zarguhl]

The question is illogical. The kidnapper mother wouldn't raise a child well, she'd be a horrific mother. There couldn't exist a good parent who did that.

It's like saying "Lets say a man beats a woman until she agrees to marry him, but after that he's a perfect husband and years later people find out what happened should he get in trouble?"

Both hypothetical situations are impossible.

Edit:
Corrected, wrong definition of "Straw Man".

 

[Najos]

The question is illogical. The kidnapper mother wouldn't raise a child well, she'd be a horrific mother. It's a straw man argument to say there could exist a good parent who did that.

It's like saying "Lets say a man beats a woman until she agrees to marry him, but after that he's a perfect husband and years later people find out what happened should he get in trouble?"

Both hypothetical situations are impossible.

It isn't actually a straw man, though. A straw man is...well, here's a good example.

Person A: We should raise speed limits on interstates across the country.
Person B: If we didn't have speed limits there would be way too many accidents.

You see, Person B's argument is a straw man because he changed Person A's original argument. Instead of actually debating the point, he creates a false point (hence the term straw man) and argues that.

Spoiler: The more you know!

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XvZXZSpOFJwa1xqRqPiEyJkt3i0LNOHnFgnhpHwhdXUw7m/bviRpaCfagRt0G/kszz1Lr2+Nsl6JbXHdHPYXI6jHk1HB0yAZub3MLTwuWjv3T+Fov0vC1W45jg1zm3EnSbAzfdQuzBgcS7TeDxgcr9FRt8RjXGKXuXYYUrJPaHZnh9Pic4Go/a8nlLvSybh6ehlm6j+IcOoHPzWfj8eCRpBceMcj1WJic6cKhaHlvDnHpxWdbnzlZ8L9PQ0a/DlGPK+509LPQ1vdh407kPYAZ4+IXOyy8TnPiOjb0PuPFc9WzCWmAI5mZJ8uCbQpVC3VALYteFWjZbLbNCNFVfBcrZo93AkkwNgB1WdXLw+2k9Z1R5fun9yJIIvzmQCd1p0srDGiwlxtJEnqeQVmvGnNtt9yGd1cHwV8swZ1anP0gcTB84C6UdnW1Wg66TeoJLz+gV/KOyVKpSa+rMC5DSADHCVs4JtHD+I0w2RYgTbhM8VXnjqLfuiPztomyrKQ2mGNJjm+6p5llDqbpa+mCRJeWyQOQBVyvmA1gio0gn7k3HmVmZs9xOoEGbf8KCqpSl2/n7EFrclvfByPaHDd5WpU2nUXvDS4QNyJMAL1XAUm06bGMEBoAA6Lz3IcBrxoc4fwwXeTpAHrcru2V7Lyv9Rzcpxp9Fz9zmitNdSNMVgjvFzuIxWp08tlaoZlaHe9eVeN7Fp0NLZYza7fJYy1cRVDmWuIkLLKs1R6Y6ZZo4jo8I7e5cKWYVWiwJDh/+gCsEL0D6XMBFelV/EzTPVs/uFwbqPHdfTsG3zceEvyMK+PTY0ROUZUhTCrpCIhCEgLTWzYbpCE6g+HAzHXzsnVKPicG3DSbjlMAp6AhcmtEkDqlep8rpaq1Mc3t+YXUFuSQN6R6Hl2D0OoDgGOf/AJSR+ivYTD6mtLi4ACpVcRd0ADbrYq1UwlzzZhxHm9xI/mVyhhS2o1gaHTQawgmJ7yZ+a9Q7OhaTKHMjm6GKqVsTTBbopta9zBx8W7jPElbrcLLMS78EsB5F5awR7z7lHSbTpY1wc7Uym1rQW3BIDSQDxvqUv18929gGkPqd7fefZHzWRZ4jCtNb3tsswxZWPevYMThgyvTG32TSDyMzKlzCs0VGH+JEvqHaXXgX5c+ZVDF4qdJe4yYBM3tYCCq2Px51aA4PMC3Tffms+zxRzTiuO/8APoaNXhvqy5XxbNTnEAaiTHKfn5pMTnLNOkEkmLm4HuWG3G0S4g6i695sOagc9l4kCLQL73LpWZ1WS2nvk1K8aKXobGJzJxksJmPugwY4klVnZk7TJvPs7xH69VjU3kulhMe1BuY5lXqTm+0XRy5eZ4qzVgTsS2d+fXWxv1txg3g7j5eiY5huQGzN48RI5eat0cO0sdDgZ2EXieMqZmDa1wawAyLiYkg7rYp8NjHuZ1/ikfQMvwZqEkkMjdp+YCRjS4QxsNbuSYBI3InfgtKphRpM6R1BM+UqlWos7k6nEhp8IjYm8Dn6rQ/D11LhIyLvE3N8Mhr4i0tiPw2InkBurNDAGo8azpEfeLeEzLRzWdQwTmg6GiTAmxIm+52XWtxTGhrnHWRs0bTyPPzVC3KjBPaKzvnJ9zeyWpTLe6pEvDQJL3FrfMNVGpiKrHuBvT3c5twOgkXWzRxbX0Wy5rC4CzADbaJ9Fl5jmdIDQwNc4GYJMDmTe5Xn7PEPi1rn7mlVHfeWyTLsQwF1YN1DaC25JO+1tlm5hV1S90N/LuosTnzi3QWhjbkuEbdOW65rOu0bWGWva88BwE2jqqytsnJlpwWuGdT2SkCq8+04AeTZ/f4LoHVZ8llZPT00KcjdoJ8yJPzV/UvI583Zc2atMFGCQ9eefSJ26NOcPh3Q/wBuo07CLtHI33Wr9IPa36pRFOmftqosfwtmNXnvC8Ze4uMkkkySStfwfwxS1fauPRfuU8vJ18ETqOy30h4jCODXONWjsabjMD8pOxXpeVdvcJiAIqCm4+zUMek8V4ZpSBq2svwqjJ5a0/dFOnKnXx6Hsv0o4LvMBrEHu3tdIvZ3hN/cvHJsrFPMKgY5gqO0O3bNjedlXCmwcV4tXl73ycX2+bLq0IVESpSow2VdIBqE9wHCUIAlKQOVhuGLlfwmAZfVc8OXqlKSSGlsz6uCMNLfFqEwLx5rpuyPZp/fU6tWKdNpEyRqPLw7q5Sy1oa0NA4XHvnoFt5bSBlk6o2M3aBwPNU55koPcEWIYznwzaxmZS5zWUwA8sGojUYpgCI2IJaocRrMvcTyHAxyAPDgs3E4p4IFIQAL3B4kzJ2Tm5l4XazqcTxFiTvHJRTy8i31NGjDgtpk+H0ta4vAEN5XEnh6KD/1NjOLhIm7ZMcP3UFbGuc0247bE9I8oUVSqS2XkbQB7RAThiWWPbRccq618OirWrEuJnw8PLeXcyVX7xxdqFhy5/0UrKp0nSLWAAbztLybBDnltptsCAPULYpwUvmKF2fGK0iCpgoJMgEjYczw5qWg6WhrveBLj0CvMwoM2HUgFxJPVS18JoewaIIGwIuTYbbbrTjjwr5MKzxPnhlCkxsgFoPiG+8DhbZX6uHZFh4gZILiQOAaOZuFE/DnW4AB5aZtffgY2SmmQzxAi9hN9XQbyunkV1ozrMmybLFLCaGePSASZFg4xbeNpVl1Jl9WmdMtAgCI3J4XVPHueAC6NIEaZkxzMqriM6Y4ts0eGLCbDgenkqVniC1qJXVc5cstsAOlpa1rSZnWb8zPAJRjabfDopHU7SJAcQBYHV6rAzHPZNjECBAt6LOrZxAGmx4m0npKzZ3WT9S3Xj+51+Or02STUDdJFmGx93RUGdsQ1twx3RzJPpOy46vmjnTeypuxRPFRKrfzMuxpR2D+2jr30xcAWE8oHksDH9pKlR0lx9CR8lkkykhSKqEeUiZcFt+b1SCC5xmOJ4eqZXxAMQCNrneVAghSLWuBmjh+1GKp/dr1bcC9xHlBMLcwX0o4pghwY/qQZ94K5IhJCrzxqbPmgn+hJG2cezJ8wzCpXqGpVc57jxJJjoJ2HRRJAEoU6SS0jhvfLHMZJA5lFRt4SNdGynbhZpuqTs4COJmbrpCK6QpSkKQDSo5UhURQAIQhAG9huXOy1KNdukAA6hv6bXWPQeI5K5TN7Ejgq8oORbr0u5tYfF6RO0mDsZn9Fo2nU18W5iT0WFh6kE+RC1aFSnoJIMiI6jiT1UleD1luOTGCJK1YtILII4nqR8U5tSQCRfgIsepPBLhKOoSQdA36jlKnZiQHG9oEWtA4ea1KcSFaTZRu8S5aTKeKqXggbi+w6xzVhlHUDpgNHAbE8lI3xuM+IDa17pBjAAZaIuBBi44yp3bVWY9uZOfYip1T9xpItLjJ0k8o5CVJQwbxB0hzb+FpuBzJ4KliM5tJAgCOErOZj9MyeExP3p2B/vgqcs174K/ROa5OhpYhh1bwBG9zwGkFZ78UwjTtqIBJcPC0X96xqmdXmG25D9OioVMzOkjmZNhPvVKy2yzuyWGNo2KmbNYHNabEmLQfPoqlTOIPhGnhO58zKxK2LHD4qF1dx53XPQ33LUaUaWJx8g+I++ypuxnreVSc8oXSikTKCRK+uSmEyk0pWC8c10diJUPEGOSAYQAJUhMpEAOSFIhADkJqEAKhJKEALKEgT3EaR+Kb+XRADZSEoSFADXFMKc5NTAEIQkBpMqK9RcD/AMrKa9W6VTku4vQnJmzhq/ASB53iVpUK94cS0OjjuBtPvXPU6wn+qvU8YGtmRfhufipfP0itZ1M2q+ILQYcYn09Amuxoa0kX4gybcyVz1XNz5jl+pUdXOCWkW69eiglbJkPkt9zUdnJBBDuB3O08AqmJztzpvM8eXksZ+LJO6rGqoujb2yxGlIvYjMC7yGyr1MUSqxclaRxXaSJlFIf35G1kwvKQJHFM6CVLhsSaZlu8R71E5pG4jiklAEgE7C6RzYMG3BNa+LjglfULiSdzdAChyRNJTnRwQAiVNlCAFlOTZSl5gDkgCxh67Q14cJJA0nkZVdzk2USnsB0pU2U7vTGnhKQCFCRxSSgByUlM1J9WsCAIiEANlJKRNKALP1od1ogTqnVx8lWQhNgCEISAnBUjKkIQmJjxWKa7EGfNIhDEMNUphehCQ0NSgoQgY6sRqMbTYJkoQmA4hNKEJAIXz6WSEoQmAkolKhACShKhAASlQhACSklCEAEolCEgFBSoQmA4piVCQDZQhCYBKEIQAIQhIAQhCAP/2Q==

 

[Doom-Slayer]

Hey, if you feel leaving someone in the care of an individual who lives a lie and is willing to steal a child from their parents, effectively crushing them and ruining their life, depriving the child too of growing up with their mum and dad is the more 'right' thing to do, rather than return the stolen child to its home, that's your prerogative.

I'm just glad the law disagrees with you and would send the nutjob to prison for a very long time.

Wow...you just took everything I said out of context and made about...3 unfounded statements. And...mentioned the law again, which as Ive said twice, does not come into moral and ethical debates, and if you think it should, you don't understand what morality is. Lets take this logically if at all possible shall we? Remembering of course I'm talking on a general level, not the specific case in the OP, but if you read my posts you'd know that.

"effectively crushing them and ruining their life" Wow if that isn't unfounded then I don't know what is. You immediately presume because the child cant live with their original parents they are living a horrible and terrible life? What if their parents were lower-class, poor and lived in a gang infested neighborhood and the person stealing the child is a wealthy businessman/women?

"Depriving the child too of growing up with their mum and dad" Interesting word "deprive", since that's again unfounded(see above)

"nutjob" conjecture again.

And once again you don't actually consider the feelings of the child anywhere in your post, which is what my entire post was about.

 

[Doom-Slayer]

Snip

One last thing, since you seemingly took 1 sentence out of my last post and ignored the rest. Yes, morality generally...generally, defines law. However the reverse is not so, law does not define morality, therefore quoting law to back up moral arguments, or saying the law is on your side, is totally meaningless. Using MORALITY to back up law is how laws are made, one defines the other, not the other way around. How do I know this? This is what I'm being TAUGHT, since I'm doing Practical Ethics at Uni after all.

But yes I'm done, slightly sad to see 90% of what I wrote was ignored though, since I actually like debates and philosophy in general. Oh well.

 

[zarguhl]

What if their parents were lower-class, poor and lived in a gang infested neighborhood and the person stealing the child is a wealthy businessman/women?

A wealthy businessman/woman - psychotic criminal...

The premise is flawed.

 

[Doom-Slayer]

A wealthy businessman/woman - psychotic criminal...

The premise is flawed.

Wealth generally leads to self-entitlement and being eccentric. Also being delusional =/= psychotic. And after all, a self-entitled business/women decides stealing the child is for their own good, and that they can raise them better? Certainly not unlikely. But anyway, I'm done, arguing on the internet is seemingly pointless not matter how hard you try to be reasonable.

 

[zarguhl]

Wealth generally leads to self-entitlement and being eccentric. Also being delusional =/= psychotic. And after all, a self-entitled business/women decides stealing the child is for their own good, and that they can raise them better? Certainly not unlikely.

I had to re-read what I wrote 5 times to figure out what I meant... Sorry lol.

I meant that she is a wealthy business woman, who is ALSO a psychotic criminal, thus following from my earlier post saying that she couldn't be a good mother, etc.

 

[Doom-Slayer]

I meant that she is a wealthy business woman, who is ALSO a psychotic criminal, thus following from my earlier post saying that she couldn't be a good mother, etc.

All good But ya as I said, yes she took a child however that doesn't make her psychotic. In the example the woman took the child because she couldn't have any of her own. She doesn't necessarily have to be psychotic or even delusional now that I think about it, she could be totally correct in thinking that she would make a better mother. I'm not saying that its the right thing to do obviously, but in actual fact she could make a better mother, if shes from a higher social strata(sic) or the current parents are abusive etc.