An overlooked issue with Undertale

[cjspyres]

So, I have started to notice something that is severely problematic for me when it comes to Undertake. Which, as much as everybody loves it, nobody apparently notices the pedophillic tendencies in the game. I mean, you play a child and go on a date with an adult. One of the game mechanics is that you flirt with enemies to pacify them. Is anybody else bothered by this? Or bothered that nobody seems to care? It seems that Tumblr and the likes love it so much because it is pro LGBT and such (which have no problem with, being in a gay relationship myself) but they act like its immune to any criticism because of that. Any other time, they would outcry rage, but not now? What do you ladies and gentlemen think?

 

[EternallyBored]

I think you might be overthinking this. The game doesn't actually seem to treat the dates as sexual in nature, and in both of them nothing happens, Papyrus is too oblivious and seems to think dating is just another form of friendship, whereas Alphys pretty much treats you like a kid with a crush, using your date as an excuse to build up her confidence to talk to Undyne.

The flirting mechanic seems totally innocent, Frisk isn't making overtly sexual comments, we don't even really know exactly what he's saying, and the characters (which are of very ambiguous ages themselves), don't really respond in anything other than an innocent fashion either. We don't really know Frisks age, but can probably assume he's at least 10, and at that age kids will flirt with either kids their own age or with adults they might have crush's on, it's not pedophilic to have a kid flirt with you if nothing actually comes of it. The flirting with toriel especially, is about how many adults react to kids just starting puberty that flirt with them, embarrassment, maybe make a silly joke, then shrug it off.

I mean, maybe I'm forgetting some lines somewhere, but none of the flirting comes off as pedophilic, it all seems pretty childish and innocent.

 

[FillerDmon]

I was under the assumption that so many people like Undertale because Undertale is one of the best, well written games of this generation, to the point where even Yahtzee recommends it. And how it succeeds despite a $10 price tag, being better written and designed than most AAA games made with 6x the cost and easily several times the budget.

Just getting that out of the way first. As for the content in the game: yeah, you kinda remind me of the "Twilight Princess is pushing the Bestiality/Pedophilia/Dominatrix/Furry Agenda" people. Maybe not as bad as them (because they were fucking nuts), but still; there's no reason to see more into something than what actually exists.

... I was going to start listing some of the content in Undertale just to note the type of atmosphere that people who bring up comments like this don't seem to be getting, but between the ghost who cries and makes his own hat, Tsunderplane, donating to the Spider Bakesale, -everything- about Mettaton...

Yeah no, there are some things that Undertale does represent that is meant to actually be thought about (it's incredible meta-commentary about the state of gaming and the common mindsets of gamers), but this? Either intentional or accidentally looking for a problem that doesn't exist.

 

[cjspyres]

Yes, because a character sprite swaying their hips in a sexual way to flirt with a character is totally a problem that doesn't exist when that character is a child. Especially considering you have to do that to win the game. I mean seriously, whether or not you think the game is good, the creators obviously overlooked these details.

People can't claim it's just a joke, because that just makes it worse. And despite the fact that "nothing comes of it", you still have a child flirting and going on dates with adults. Do you mean to tell me that if you saw that on reality, you'd just shrug it off?

 

[EternallyBored]

Yes, because a character sprite swaying their hips in a sexual way to flirt with a character is totally a problem that doesn't exist when that character is a child. Especially considering you have to do that to win the game. I mean seriously, whether or not you think the game is good, the creators obviously overlooked these details.

They didn't overlook the detail, you seem to just be reading way more sexuality than they, or most of the fans, interpreted. Also, you want to be a little more specific about who is doing the hip swaying here? It obviously wasn't too obvious, because I've played the game and have no idea what the hell you are referring to at this point.

Just because you see something, doesn't mean everyone else sees the same thing and is just purposely overlooking it.

People can't claim it's just a joke, because that just makes it worse. And despite the fact that "nothing comes of it", you still have a child flirting and going on dates with adults.

Really? flirting and going on a couple of dates with questionably adult characters where nothing happens is not some terrible pedophilic action that requires the comments you seem to think it does, Undertale has nothing that would earn it more than a PG rating if it were a movie. There have been far raunchier interactions between children and adults in all kinds of fiction, Family guy makes it a running joke with Stewie, South Park has definitely done it, and with explicit mentions of sex on top, even the Simpsons has done it in a more explicit fashion than anything in Undertale.

Nobody called those out as pedophilic because most people thought it wasn't, the tone and context was not meant to be sexual, and most audiences buy that as acceptable justification for fiction, that you disagree is fine, but irrelevant.

The reason nobody is calling Undertale out isn't because the makers or fans are missing anything, it seems to be because you are setting the bar for what counts as "pedophilic content" lower than even basic broadcast mainstream American Television.

Do you mean to tell me that if you saw that on reality, you'd just shrug it off?

If Undertale was reality, I would be more concerned about where Frisk's parent's are, but because its fiction, I don't care about his parent's because it would bog the story down, or divert the story being told. What I tolerate in reality has little bearing on what I tolerate in fiction, its not a 1:1 comparison.

You can criticize it if you think its inappropriate, but I doubt you'll find many people here that are going to agree with your assessment. At this point, I think your definition of pedophilic content is just a hell of a lot broader than most peoples.

Really, if the Simpsons can do it without mainstream America calling it out for "pedophilia" then I doubt you'll ever get any large number of people to agree with your assessment on something as innocent as Undertale.

 

[Kingjackl]

I think the flirting between Frisk and the other characters can be written off as played for comedy. There's nothing overtly sexual or romantic about it, and Frisk's design is inherently non-sexual to begin with. As the poster said above me, the dating bits can be justified as Papyrus being too naive and Alphys not really being interested in you. Plus, all of the serious relationships in the game - Alphys and Undyne, Toriel and Asriel, the two guards, etc. - are between consenting adults.

Plus at the end of the day, while Frisk may be a child, he's also meant as a cipher for the player and Undertale seems to be primarily aimed at adult gamers. The reason so few have picked up on this subtext (which is spurious to begin with) is because we don't see the flirting as between an adult and a child, but between an adult and ourselves as a jumping off point for gags about romance in games, player choice and spaghetti hats.

 

[FillerDmon]

Do you mean to tell me that if you saw that on reality, you'd just shrug it off?

Considering the world depicted in Undertale is about as disconnected from reality as is possible to be, if we saw half the stuff happening there in our world, this "wanna-be pedophilia" thing you're trying to invent would be the last issue on my mind, considering most of those monsters want us dead and some of them do have the means of doing so.

Also, if you can find a skeleton who makes spaghetti, I'll set up a play-date for him and my nephew.

 

[Eclipse Dragon]

First off, none the the characters really flirt with Frisk, it's you the player who chooses to flirt with them (you could have ignored the option, it's not even required) and then it would be no different than a young student flirting with their teacher, because that's what they see adults do with each other and are trying to mimic the behavior.

The characters you flirt with whom recognize it for what it is make no effort to return the action. It's already been stated by several people here and even Undyne that Papyrus is naive. Plus we don't know how old Papyrus actually is, he could be a child, could have died as a child, ext ext he certainly acts like a child.

I think a little bit of willing suspension of disbelief [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WillingSuspensionOfDisbelief] should be applied in this scenario.

 

[SweetShark]

Pedophilia: a person who is sexually attracted to children.

I.....think is the other way around.

Chronophilia: When a young person is in love with an older person who may be significantly older.
Teleiophelia is a very rare term due to the fact that it's socially acceptable for a younger person to like an older person

The child make always the first move. The guys/girls accept.
Date. End of story
/Thread

Btw OP, put spoiler in your title. Some people didn't played the game and you ruined for thewm now if they read your first post.

 

[EyeReaper]

Do we ever get confirmed ages for any of the monsters? Hell, do we even get an age on Frisk?

Maybe Papyrus isn't an adult, He's just big boned?

 

[DEAD34345]

The main character is a kid, and she (has the option to) "flirt" with some of the other characters, not the other way around. The other characters universally react with bemusement, except for Papyrus, and even with him it goes nowhere sexual.

There's really no issue here whatsoever.

 

[chocolate pickles]

Tbh, I think undertale's greatest issue is its gameplay. Game's boring as hell.

 

[EternallyBored]

Do we ever get confirmed ages for any of the monsters? Hell, do we even get an age on Frisk?

Maybe Papyrus isn't an adult, He's just big boned?

We don't get anything concrete as far as I know, like many cartoons, they leave the ages ambiguous so they can still act like immature children but still have adult responsibilities. Some characters like Toriel and Asgore are obviously older and the game clearly shows this. Others like Alphys and Undyne have responsibilities you'd expect from someone well into adulthood, but act like they're still teenagers. Papyrus acts like a kid himself half the time, and we only get a hint into Sans age with a hidden Easter egg that suggests he's older than he first appears.

Much like the ponies from MLP, you can easily argue the ages for many characters to anywhere between early teens to late 20s depending on how you interpret their characters. Unless I missed some information somewhere, the ages are basically whatever you interpret them as.

 

[K12]

I think if you count having the option to have a non-voiced, non-acted, essentially blank child player avatar character has a vague option to "flirt" (not "arouse" or "seduce") with characters who aren't necessarily adult themselves (Toriel and Asgore are since they have a child but Papyrus, Undyne, Sans and Alphys are ambiguous since the game works on children's fantasy logic) and they don't flirt back (in fact they actively discourage it and say they don't feel the same way in some instances) and has no overtly sexual content as having "paedophillic tendencies" then you're being extremely keen to see them.

It sounds a bit like you're searching for something "problematic" in Undertale to try and discredit positive opinions by showing inconsistencies by people you don't like. I think most people love undertale because it's brilliantly written, the LGBT stuff is a garnish at most. [spoiler/] correct me if I'm wrong but you can only see the Alphys/Undyne romantic interest if you've already completed the game through the neutral path anyway right?) [/spoiler]

Worst case scenario Frisk (is her name paedophillic too?) is When kids say things that sounds slightly sexual without really knowing what it means then its generally just funny. I worked in a nursery way back and one of the girls would always call me "sexy" (she was 3) and it was really cute and funny. I discouraged her from doing it obviously but it didn't find it disturbing or worry that she was being abused.

 

[Shoggoth2588]

It's not really something I thought about too much. The characters you seem to be able to flirt with seem downright sexless most of the time and the only character who I would call 'loving' is loving in a motherly way. I don't know too much about what goes on after the...uh...garbage cave river though since I just can't muster up the will to play Undertale when I have other games with better gameplay that I can, and should, be playing.

 

[9tailedflame]

Yes, because a character sprite swaying their hips in a sexual way to flirt with a character is totally a problem that doesn't exist when that character is a child. Especially considering you have to do that to win the game. I mean seriously, whether or not you think the game is good, the creators obviously overlooked these details.

People can't claim it's just a joke, because that just makes it worse. And despite the fact that "nothing comes of it", you still have a child flirting and going on dates with adults. Do you mean to tell me that if you saw that on reality, you'd just shrug it off?

Except you're the character. The character is depicted as a child, but the fact that the character is also portrayed as you pretty much mitigates the issues associated with the PC being a child, since the audience is generally not children. And has been said before, the "dates" are more like play dates than anything else. Plus, the world is far too absurd to really taking something like hip swaying as an issue if you ask me.