And the Most-Pirated Game of 2010 Is...

for example john

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AwesomePeanutz said:
for example john said:
AwesomePeanutz said:
I've been reading through this thread, and I hate it when people use the excuse "I can't afford it so it's ok for me to pirate." That's like saying "I can't afford to pay my mortgage so I won't have to worry about it."

Games are usually $5-60. And if you own a $300 console then you can surely afford a game. Either shell out the $60 or don't buy it.

Zannah said:
Again with this discussion... No, piracy still doesn't harm sales in any significant way. Yes, the devs making shitty games, charging way too much, not porting properly, not fixing bugs, not treating their employees properly, not releasing demos and rarely if at all supporting their products have it coming.
(Oh and for the record, if I worked in the creative industry (which I do), my opinion wouldn't change. Fun thing is, I can't afford the entertainment I'd like to have, because the entertainment industry doesn't pay me enough)
Perfect example. Firstly, you can't prove that pirating doesn't affect the developer's profit in a significant way. Second, stealing something "shitty" still means you stole something. If a game is crap, then don't play the damn game. Finally, not being able to afford something doesn't give you the right to take it (see my original post above). We don't live in a communist country, numbnuts.
There is a difference between a video game and a house. One can be copied an infinite amount of times with no cost added and the other is a house.

Firstly, I think you're right, what proof is there that pirating doesn't increase a developer's profits. Second, how will will you know if a game is crap. Since everyone's tastes in games are different, going off of ratings doesn't always work. Finally, if you weren't going to (or can't) buy a game, then pirating it doesn't hurt the developers and may in fact help them (see my original post above). Blah Blah Blah communist country, numbnuts.
Considering you've avoided half of my argument, I'm just going to assume you are an ignoramus teen who has no idea how capitalism works and leave it at that. Good luck in life, mate. You're gonna need it. ;)
That's weird, despite refuting your argument about the mortgage simile and your three arguments after the quote, you offer no counter argument. And as for avoiding half of your argument, I assume you're talking about the price of games part. Well here it is:

Not everyone can afford a $300 console and the $60 that come after that.
 

asam92

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It makes sense that Dante's Inferno was the number 1 game for 360 because it was one of those games where you are unsure if it is worth spending money on but you are still very intrigued by it after playing the demo, I know I was. Alan Wake also falls into this catergory I think, but then again I dont think that the 360's exclusives lineup is as good as PC or PS3 anyway.
Sony seems to be the only one interested in putting as much money as possible into protecting themselves from Piracy, which you would think would draw more 3rd party attention.
 

Dastardly

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Balimaar said:
OANST said:
I think that you will find that you are wrong about that.

Ultimately, word of mouth is very expensive. It involves actual marketing to begin with, plus you have to provide exemplary service to get the person interested in spreading the word. That type of service is expensive.
Or there might just be freaks like me who enjoy a good game and persuade a dozen friends to buy the game who convince at least 2 or 3 people each. 12 + 12*3 = 48 copies sold and we aren't going to go any further discussing how many those 36 people will convince.

Make a good quality release and people will talk about it and buy it.
People tend to overestimate the effectiveness of the alternatives they suggest, while at the same time underestimating the cost. You can see the same phenomenon happening when people discuss alternative fuels.

Word of mouth is not advertising. Word of mouth assist advertising. The product has to be out there, highly visible, in order to start people talking. Then someone buys it. They enjoy it. Then they talk to someone, who asks about it. Maybe they're interested. But they're going to want more than one testimonial, usually. So they ask around more.

Realistically, it'll take around five happy customers to convince one person to buy if they weren't already going to buy thanks to the advertising. Very different from the opposite ratio (one person bringing in five) that people pretend actually happens in any dependable way.
 

Yopaz

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Jun 3, 2009
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Tim Latshaw said:
Sissies. March into a store, look the associate in the eye and demand to buy Kirby's Epic Yarn like a MAN.
I would, but the Europe release date isn't until next year. More honestly put it will be released in January.

Actually a bit surprising that Wii and Xbox got as much piracy as they do. I would never have bothered to mod my Wii or Xbox just to download games. Seems like too much effort to me. Steam also makes it so simple to get games and with the sales they sometimes present (also you wont have to fear getting a virus) I prefer that.
 

Dastardly

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John Funk said:
It's true that not every download is a lost sale. While it's a safe bet that some of the pirates would have bought the game were there no other choice, there's no way of knowing how low (or high) that percentage would be.
Don't let this tired, worn-and-beaten line downplay the impact of piracy, though.

Yes, you can't prove a 1:1 ratio of "pirated copies" to "lost full-price sales." But I can't really say I've seen anyone make that claim. I've seen the claim interpreted that way by those whom it suits at the moment, but no real claims of 1:1 loss.

I prefer to frame things in the terms that the opposition uses. People speak with their dollars, right? And if people are pirating, it's because the product didn't interest them, of course. This logic introduces an interesting principle: "You can measure a person's interest by how much they will spend," and the converse, "What a person spends is a reflection of their interest in the product."

So far so good. What that means is you could say a person who buys the game on launch day "has expressed $60 worth of interest." A full price sale. On the other end of the spectrum would be someone who doesn't even give the game a second glance--they have expressed $0 worth of interest, so to speak.

Anyone who obtains and plays a copy of the game, then, has expressed an interest in the game amounting to greater than $0. This means that pirates represent people who are, in fact, interested in the game. Now, perhaps the interest isn't at the $60 level... but at $45, you'd probably grab quite a few. They'd have paid something for it, even if just a dollar, were it not for the presence of an unauthorized "free version."

Now, in an age where we're acutely aware of piracy, we already anticipate the existence of a "free copy." So it's easy for us to preemptively adjust our expectations of the game to the "Eh, not worth the money" setting--basically, you can't get an unbiased sample anymore. So we have to rely on what we know of basic human psychology: If you're not interested in something, you'll ignore it. If you're paying attention to it, you're interested (for good or ill).

Every downloaded copy should be treated as lost revenue. Not the loss of a full-price copy, of course, but lost revenue just the same. If that person would ever have picked it up on Steam for $0.75, then it's a loss.

Most people probably fall somewhere between $1 and $60 on the "what I could pay" spectrum. There is a period of time between A: Launch and B: The first batch of used sales. The time between A and B is a place where the publisher can still make a lot of sales at even just a slightly-reduced price. The piracy factor effectively eliminates that period of time, and constitutes a substantial loss beyond the losses it causes at launch.

The problem is bigger than we're being led to believe (by the same people using a strawman to tell us that publishers are overestimating it).
 

geizr

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pedal2000 said:
geizr said:
The real problem, as I see, that piracy presents is that it completely skews the ability to estimate potential sells. This causes problems with adjusting prices appropriately to respond to the market, and it poses considerable difficulty when planning the financial feasibility of future product development and business expansion.
Except that there is no 'price adjustment'. Don't kid yourself - Activision doesn't charge 70 bucks for CODBO because of piracy. They do it because they can sell it at that price and make shitloads of money.
Maybe I should clarify what I mean by adjusting prices to respond to the market. If the market is willing to pay upwards of $70 for a game, then it is only reasonable to expect this is exactly what a company will do(I'm sure you would do the same yourself, if in the same situation). This action is taken in response to fact of knowledge that the market is willing to bear such cost. If people are not willing to pay upwards of $70 for the game, then the company has to lower the price to encourage more sales, again in response to fact of knowledge that the market is not willing to bear such cost. So, I'm afraid, setting a price simply to make shit-loads of money is a valid response to the market.

Now, if the price is set at, say, $500, despite fact of knowledge that it is highly unlikely anyone would pay such a price for a single game, then you could argue that the company is not responding to the market but just trying to be greedy. One would expect them to fail in this endeavor for such an extreme case as I have outlined here, however, I am forced to refer to the era of the NeoGeo as a counter-example that people are sometimes willing to pay rather extreme prices for what they perceive as having value. (A single NeoGeo game cartridge could cost $150-$200; this is in addition to the $500-$600 price for the console, itself. Yet, a number of people bought one and games for it. Of course, with the NeoGeo, you were getting the full arcade game, not a reduced version. This is why some were willing to pay such prices.)

In no wise was I trying to make an argument that any company is charging a particular price as a result of piracy. You are misconstruing my argument, if that is what you were thinking. From what I've observed, no matter how low the price, anything priced higher than free, the pirates will pirate because they are just that egocentric and entitlement-minded. As I said, only three reasons for it: lazy, cheap, and a douche-bag.
 

Owyn_Merrilin

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geizr said:
pedal2000 said:
geizr said:
The real problem, as I see, that piracy presents is that it completely skews the ability to estimate potential sells. This causes problems with adjusting prices appropriately to respond to the market, and it poses considerable difficulty when planning the financial feasibility of future product development and business expansion.
Except that there is no 'price adjustment'. Don't kid yourself - Activision doesn't charge 70 bucks for CODBO because of piracy. They do it because they can sell it at that price and make shitloads of money.
Maybe I should clarify what I mean by adjusting prices to respond to the market. If the market is willing to pay upwards of $70 for a game, then it is only reasonable to expect this is exactly what a company will do(I'm sure you would do the same yourself, if in the same situation). This action is taken in response to fact of knowledge that the market is willing to bear such cost. If people are not willing to pay upwards of $70 for the game, then the company has to lower the price to encourage more sales, again in response to fact of knowledge that the market is not willing to bear such cost. So, I'm afraid, setting a price simply to make shit-loads of money is a valid response to the market.

Now, if the price is set at, say, $500, despite fact of knowledge that it is highly unlikely anyone would pay such a price for a single game, then you could argue that the company is not responding to the market but just trying to be greedy. One would expect them to fail in this endeavor for such an extreme case as I have outlined here, however, I am forced to refer to the era of the NeoGeo as a counter-example that people are sometimes willing to pay rather extreme prices for what they perceive as having value. (A single NeoGeo game cartridge could cost $150-$200; this is in addition to the $500-$600 price for the console, itself. Yet, a number of people bought one and games for it. Of course, with the NeoGeo, you were getting the full arcade game, not a reduced version. This is why some were willing to pay such prices.)

In no wise was I trying to make an argument that any company is charging a particular price as a result of piracy. You are misconstruing my argument, if that is what you were thinking. From what I've observed, no matter how low the price, anything priced higher than free, the pirates will pirate because they are just that egocentric and entitlement-minded. As I said, only three reasons for it: lazy, cheap, and a douche-bag.
My argument here is that the high piracy rate shows that the market isn't willing to bear that $70 price point, and that by raising the price, they cut off a portion of the market who pirate where before they would have paid. The beauty of all of this is that, while even the $60 price point is ridiculous, rather than lowering the price to something the market really will bear, companies blame any failure on the high piracy rate, instead of looking at that rate and saying "huh, maybe we're charging too much." Activision gets away with the high price for Call of Duty because it's Call of Duty, and has a wide enough appeal that, even with the people cut off by the higher price point, it will still sell insanely well with the people who can afford it. Apparently, the Alan Wake devs, to use an example from the most pirated list, were charging too much at $60 a pop. But of course, piracy is to blame for the poor sales of that one...
 

pokepuke

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John Funk said:
There's a difference between a debate and insulting/flaming. If you've learned the difference, you're more than welcome to discuss it here without fear of reprisal. If you haven't learned to argue without being rude, then you aren't - it's as simple as that.
That's easy to say coming from that side of the fence.

Either way, it doesn't change the truth of what I said: It really does suck to see more pirates playing your game than actual paying customers. That's an observation, not an argument.
Why does it suck? Are you claiming that the game developers are just greedy and have no love for the art?

By the way, how is it surprising that COD wasn't #1 for XBox downloads? It's not an exclusive title and there are tons more PC gamers out there. Was there a demo for COD? If not, then I doubt those "pirates" are still playing it, considering how it was so crapily programmed. Plus the game is mostly multiplayer, which these days isn't an easy thing to do if you can't verify your copy to the server. With a game like that, most people just want to check it out because of the hype.

P.S. You missed some commas in your lists.
 

Dastardly

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for example john said:
dastardly said:
for example john said:
@dastardly

Can you link the statistics for that ratio?
You first.
I didn't post any ratios...
I didn't claim any were hard fact, either. I simply said they were more realistic.

"Word of mouth" advertising, at least the sort people are claiming is better than actual advertising, works on the bandwagon effect--many people convincing one. Yet there's this myth that one person can go to all of his friends and say, "Hey, here's a product you know nothing about, and I say it's great!" and a dozen people then go out and buy it.

When someone is aware of a product, but not interested, it takes several happy customers to change them to someone who wants the product in question. You have to not only turn them toward your product, you've got to make them interested in that product in the first place.

The way it actually works? Someone is interested in the product, but is going back and forth between it and a similar product. A friend says, "Oh, this one is awesome!" The person then might be swayed... though often they'll want an opinion on the other game, too. And that's when negative word-of-mouth plays its part. Either way, you've got a person that was already pretty interested in the product. Where did that interest come from? The media, somewhere, making them aware of that product and its features.

Picture it with a different product. Say your neighbor gets a pool put in. Great. And he says, "Wow! My pool is awesome, and I love it!" Are you going to be more likely to buy a pool? Not really. No effect here.

Now say you are shopping for a pool. Your neighbor tells you his pool is awesome, and tells you why. Are you going to be more likely to buy the same brand, or from the same company? Possibly. Even probably. But in this case, you were already looking to buy a pool. Possibly because of a commercial, or possibly because you've known so many people to enjoy having pools at home--bandwagon, many convincing one.

The point to all of this? The idea that word-of-mouth advertising can turn one customer into many, in any dependable pattern, is nonsense. A one-to-one ratio would be pushing it (where every customer can guarantee one other customer). Word of mouth is a fertilizer, not a seed. It only works where something was already growing. It can change the rate and the direction of growth, but you still need the seed. Advertising is that seed.
 

Dastardly

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pokepuke said:
John Funk said:
There's a difference between a debate and insulting/flaming. If you've learned the difference, you're more than welcome to discuss it here without fear of reprisal. If you haven't learned to argue without being rude, then you aren't - it's as simple as that.
That's easy to say coming from that side of the fence.

Either way, it doesn't change the truth of what I said: It really does suck to see more pirates playing your game than actual paying customers. That's an observation, not an argument.
Why does it suck? Are you claiming that the game developers are just greedy and have no love for the art?

By the way, how is it surprising that COD wasn't #1 for XBox downloads? It's not an exclusive title and there are tons more PC gamers out there. Was there a demo for COD? If not, then I doubt those "pirates" are still playing it, considering how it was so crapily programmed. Plus the game is mostly multiplayer, which these days isn't an easy thing to do if you can't verify your copy to the server. With a game like that, most people just want to check it out because of the hype.

P.S. You missed some commas in your lists.
Dude, they ain't charity workers. It sucks when you spend all of your time doing a job, only to watch people benefit from that work without paying, which means you (the little guy in the middle) are getting paid less for doing that job.

It'd be different if these guys weren't just game developers. If they were also cops, lawyers, pastry chefs, dentists, and so on. Hey, lots of folks have a hobby and don't get paid for it, that's the way of the world. But they're not hobbyists. It's their job.

So that's why it sucks, when you're being told your paycheck is smaller, to see other people enjoying the fruits of your labor because some selfish dick gave it away for free because he doesn't have to feed your stupid family.
 

stumpy107

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Pirates can go fuck themselves!
All there doing is killing the industry and wrecking it for the rest of us.
One of my friends argues that the regional pricing is too high (AUS) and won't pay $89 for a game which is $49 everywhere else. (around the world)

Although that's a good point, it is just an excuse to not buy and support the people who entertained you. I love my steam account and helping devs out (have purchased Stalker SHOC 3 times).

People need to start working for their entertainment if they want to see it evolve and recover what looks like a loss of PC dedication.
 

geizr

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Owyn_Merrilin said:
geizr said:
pedal2000 said:
geizr said:
blah
blah
My argument here is that the high piracy rate shows that the market isn't willing to bear that $70 price point, and that by raising the price, they cut off a portion of the market who pirate where before they would have paid. The beauty of all of this is that, while even the $60 price point is ridiculous, rather than lowering the price to something the market really will bear, companies blame any failure on the high piracy rate, instead of looking at that rate and saying "huh, maybe we're charging too much." Activision gets away with the high price for Call of Duty because it's Call of Duty, and has a wide enough appeal that, even with the people cut off by the higher price point, it will still sell insanely well with the people who can afford it. Apparently, the Alan Wake devs, to use an example from the most pirated list, were charging too much at $60 a pop. But of course, piracy is to blame for the poor sales of that one...
At the same time, one can not discount the fact that there is an increasing awareness of piracy as an option for obtaining something without paying. The incident with the Humble Bundle demonstrated that even in a case where the customer is allowed to set the price to what he/she feels is reasonable, there was still a substantial amount of piracy(as I said, more than free, and the pirate will pirate).

The only thing a high piracy rate shows is there is a large segment of people who just want what they want and will make all attempts to circumvent any barrier to obtaining it, including having to pay, even if they truly can't afford it. A better demonstration that the market is truthfully unwilling to bear such a cost is that people don't buy the game, but, at the same time, they also did not acquire the game through illegitimate means. They just learned to live without it, saving their money or spending what they have on other entertainment.
 

John Funk

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pokepuke said:
John Funk said:
There's a difference between a debate and insulting/flaming. If you've learned the difference, you're more than welcome to discuss it here without fear of reprisal. If you haven't learned to argue without being rude, then you aren't - it's as simple as that.
That's easy to say coming from that side of the fence.

Either way, it doesn't change the truth of what I said: It really does suck to see more pirates playing your game than actual paying customers. That's an observation, not an argument.
Why does it suck? Are you claiming that the game developers are just greedy and have no love for the art?

By the way, how is it surprising that COD wasn't #1 for XBox downloads? It's not an exclusive title and there are tons more PC gamers out there. Was there a demo for COD? If not, then I doubt those "pirates" are still playing it, considering how it was so crapily programmed. Plus the game is mostly multiplayer, which these days isn't an easy thing to do if you can't verify your copy to the server. With a game like that, most people just want to check it out because of the hype.

P.S. You missed some commas in your lists.
A.) It's easy on either side of the fence. Most people can argue without flaming.

B.) No, but art doesn't put food on the table for your family.

C.) Given the massive popularity of COD, it's surprising it wasn't higher, yes. But it's more surprising that #1 was Dante's Inferno, a relatively lukewarm title in all respects.
 

Blatherscythe

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Tomster595 said:
Wow, Bad Company 2 in second place. I feel bad for DICE. They don't deserve to get tripped off like that at all.. I'm somewhat less sympathetic about Cod though.
How can they? Activision is run by greedy fucking assholes and Bobby "King greedy fucking asshole" Kotick.
 

Echo136

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Delusibeta said:
It's true that not every download is a lost sale. While it's a safe bet that some of the pirates would have bought the game were there no other choice, there's no way of knowing how low (or high) that percentage would be.
I would guess 0.2%. Certainly, most people pirating anything is doing it because it costs £0.00.
9 times out of 10 if I pirate and like it Ill go out and buy it. The only exception would be Spore, because the whole Spore kit costs somwhere around $90.
 

Owyn_Merrilin

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geizr said:
Owyn_Merrilin said:
geizr said:
pedal2000 said:
geizr said:
blah
blah
snip
At the same time, one can not discount the fact that there is an increasing awareness of piracy as an option for obtaining something without paying. The incident with the Humble Bundle demonstrated that even in a case where the customer is allowed to set the price to what he/she feels is reasonable, there was still a substantial amount of piracy(as I said, more than free, and the pirate will pirate).

The only thing a high piracy rate shows is there is a large segment of people who just want what they want and will make all attempts to circumvent any barrier to obtaining it, including having to pay, even if they truly can't afford it. A better demonstration that the market is truthfully unwilling to bear such a cost is that people don't buy the game, but, at the same time, they also did not acquire the game through illegitimate means. They just learned to live without it, saving their money or spending what they have on other entertainment.
And yet the Humble Indie Bundle also raised money in the millions, despite an average contribution of under ten dollars. Yes, there are some people who will always pirate, no matter what. However, these people are absolutely not lost sales, because we've already demonstrated that they wouldn't pay for it no matter what the cost is. There's also plenty of people who are willing to pay, but not anywhere near the established price. You've even illustrated my point -- the standard price point is too high, but there's basically two options to get the game cheaper: pirate it, or buy it used. The publishers look at both cases and say that they're hurting their revenue and need to be stopped, when in fact it's a resounding cry that $60+ is too high for what they're selling. My whole point here is not that piracy is acceptable, but rather that it's not as big a deal as the content providers claim it is, and is instead a scapegoat used to avoid facing the fact that they charge more for their product than the market will bear.