You're going to "win" because I'm not as angry as you are, but you're getting upset about the wrong aspect of this in my opinion. Sorry my opinion differs from yours, that's how it works sometimes.KrabbiPatty said:
Anon. Op to destroy Norwegian killer Anders Behring Breivik's manifesto
- Thread starter ResonanceSD
- Start date
And can everyone stop the tough guy "HUR HUR he's a nobody, lol, let's destroy his memory lol!"
Christ do you people really think you're that important, or that Anon is that powerful?
You're not going to, ok. It's not possible. The actual manifesto has probably already been written down and will eventually end up in a published form, inaccessible to these inteweb anarchist dupes. And more so, he WILL eventually be remembered simply because he did something horrible when was documented. ON THE FUCKING NEWS. With video and everything. Eventually it'll be in books like every other huge crime in history--the Manson Murders, Jack the Ripper, the Oklahoma City Bombing and the Norway Massacre...I mean they're already calling it that. You're not "destroying" anything but your own dignity by this inane display of internet tough guy-ism. If you like it or not, it does not matter, history has already been written in this case and no one, NO ONE, in Norway is going to forget no matter how many fanfics you write about Breivik's death or fake manifestos you make.
You. Are. Not. Winning!
You can't even "win" something like this! Just stop it! Stop! It's embarassing, immature, and stupid. You don't sound smarter by showing such "OUTRAEG" over this, a whole fucking COUNTRY is already outraged. They don't need some guys on a video game forum to help them!
Jesus.
Christ do you people really think you're that important, or that Anon is that powerful?
You're not going to, ok. It's not possible. The actual manifesto has probably already been written down and will eventually end up in a published form, inaccessible to these inteweb anarchist dupes. And more so, he WILL eventually be remembered simply because he did something horrible when was documented. ON THE FUCKING NEWS. With video and everything. Eventually it'll be in books like every other huge crime in history--the Manson Murders, Jack the Ripper, the Oklahoma City Bombing and the Norway Massacre...I mean they're already calling it that. You're not "destroying" anything but your own dignity by this inane display of internet tough guy-ism. If you like it or not, it does not matter, history has already been written in this case and no one, NO ONE, in Norway is going to forget no matter how many fanfics you write about Breivik's death or fake manifestos you make.
You. Are. Not. Winning!
You can't even "win" something like this! Just stop it! Stop! It's embarassing, immature, and stupid. You don't sound smarter by showing such "OUTRAEG" over this, a whole fucking COUNTRY is already outraged. They don't need some guys on a video game forum to help them!
Jesus.
First: self-moderation, the choice not to swear, is not censorship. It's a choice, by definition the choice not to speak is covered under freedom of speech. MAKING someone not swear is, in fact, censorship and yeah it's stupid too. But it's built into our society so unfortunately people still get all a twitter when someone says a BAD WORD. Ooooh, you cussed!Katherine Ciesla said:
Secondly: you have every right to disagree with me about everything I said, but not with the facts which are immutable. Disagreeing with a fact, like what color the sky is, is not covered by freedom of speech. Everyone has the right to their opinion not their own reality. If you think I'm a loudmouth douchebag, feel free to! I encourage it. I'll defend it to the death. But facts are facts and non-negotiable.
Third: you're refreshingly evenhanded and intelligible for the internet. That's a good trait, don't let the Chans dilute it.
It saddens me that people equate Freedom of Speech with condoning/defending what is written.Outcast107 said:
Invokes Godwin:
I think Mein Kampf should be available if people want to read it, that does not mean that I agree with or endorse what is in it, quite the contrary. As difficult as it seems for some people to understand, god knows why though!, Freedom of Speech does not mean that you only get to hear good wholesome ideas or those ideas with which you agree or find non-confrontational, it applies to shit of the sewers too.
I think what anon doing is as sickening as politicians and papers using it to push their own agenda on the back of the tragedy. They are all parasites.
What's the difference between censorship and altering, concealing the original message? If anon were to make clear that their versions are satire and not the original then it would not be so bad. Burying and obscuring the message if not actual censorship close enough to it for me to be considered if not the same, then the next best thing.
Weren't anon at the forefront of the whole Wikileaks saga, decrying the efforts of others to make access to the information difficult? Hypocrisy much???
Calm. Down. Censorship happens every day, and in much more significant ways than this. This is nothing to raise your blood pressure over.KrabbiPatty said:
If all it took to censor a man's opinion was a bunch of bored teenagers on the internet, we would be in trouble. The man is imprisoned, and that is the reason he is unable to distribute his "message". If it weren't for his imprisonment, he could continue uploading his manifesto to his heart's content, and no amount of bored teenagers could stop him. If these people succeed in censoring his manifesto it will be because nobody has bothered to preserve it (which I doubt), and if nobody bothered to preserve it, it means nobody cares.
Look, the key to stopping people like Breiviks is not to try to drown out his manifesto - there are hundreds of similar manifestos being written by like-minded racist jerk bags every single day. Taking down Breivik's manifesto, even if that's possible, which I'm sure it isn't, wouldn't do anything to staunch the tide of crap being vomited out by Stormfront or any other racist website. Trying to suppress them isn't going to change their minds either.
Racism is born from two things: 1) Ignorance and 2) Poverty. Look at your average White Supremacist (or any sort of racial supremacist for that matter) in the 21st century - chances are they're dumb, uneducated and bitter about whatever loser job they have. Studies have shown that the poorer a community is, the more likely they are to be racist, as they have to turn to "race pride" has a means of inflating their self-esteem - the racist takes pride in his or her race, because god knows they can't take pride in their job flippin' burgers at Wendys.
I'm not saying that racism is entirely due to society - humans are illogical and we might have a built in, illogical, tendency towards racism (it would explain why racism and tribalism crops up as a problem in every single society that has EVER existed throughout the history of humanity). But I am saying that the extremes of racism can be caused by society, and that the best way of fighting racism is not censorship - it's EDUCATION.
If anon really wants to fight racism, they should do the following: Donate to an educational charity. Write anti-racist blogs. Expose the logical flaws in Breivik's manifesto. Don't fight words with censorship - fight words with words. If Breivik's manifesto is really as illogical as we say it is, we shouldn't be afraid of it. We should challenge it using logic and reasoning and good ol' fashioned values of tolerance and respect for all peoples.
I sympathize with what Anon is trying to do (for once), but in typical "I'm-a-15-year-old-shut-in-with-no-understanding-of-society-and-I-have-no-real-clue-what-I'm-doing" fashion, they are going about it ENTIRELY the wrong way.
You want to ensure the tragedy in Olso doesn't happen again? It starts with talking to people. It starts with communicating anti-racist messages. It starts with teaching people about the genetic evidence that PROVES humans are all one species. It starts with countering the hysterical subtlety racist nonsense you find in Tabloids with reason and compassion and humanity.
Giving a copy of "Race and Reality: What Everyone Should Know About Our Biological Diversity" By Guy P. Harrison, to your local school or hell, your next door neighbour or your family members, as a gift, would do far, far, far, far, far, far, far more to combating racism than launching an "attack" against a manifesto already derided by mainstream society. Breivik's manifesto is a mess of illogical, specious claims - it's actually quite well written from a grammatical perspective, Breivik obviously knew his English - but the actual content is sexist, racist, unscientific, emotional, paranoid garbage.
The best thing we can all do about Breivik is to IGNORE HIM. He obviously wants to go down in History as a Martyr to some deranged cause. He wants, and believes, that his name will be revered in households 60 years from now across Norway. Let's prove him wrong, and the first step is to forget his name.
Racism is born from two things: 1) Ignorance and 2) Poverty. Look at your average White Supremacist (or any sort of racial supremacist for that matter) in the 21st century - chances are they're dumb, uneducated and bitter about whatever loser job they have. Studies have shown that the poorer a community is, the more likely they are to be racist, as they have to turn to "race pride" has a means of inflating their self-esteem - the racist takes pride in his or her race, because god knows they can't take pride in their job flippin' burgers at Wendys.
I'm not saying that racism is entirely due to society - humans are illogical and we might have a built in, illogical, tendency towards racism (it would explain why racism and tribalism crops up as a problem in every single society that has EVER existed throughout the history of humanity). But I am saying that the extremes of racism can be caused by society, and that the best way of fighting racism is not censorship - it's EDUCATION.
If anon really wants to fight racism, they should do the following: Donate to an educational charity. Write anti-racist blogs. Expose the logical flaws in Breivik's manifesto. Don't fight words with censorship - fight words with words. If Breivik's manifesto is really as illogical as we say it is, we shouldn't be afraid of it. We should challenge it using logic and reasoning and good ol' fashioned values of tolerance and respect for all peoples.
I sympathize with what Anon is trying to do (for once), but in typical "I'm-a-15-year-old-shut-in-with-no-understanding-of-society-and-I-have-no-real-clue-what-I'm-doing" fashion, they are going about it ENTIRELY the wrong way.
You want to ensure the tragedy in Olso doesn't happen again? It starts with talking to people. It starts with communicating anti-racist messages. It starts with teaching people about the genetic evidence that PROVES humans are all one species. It starts with countering the hysterical subtlety racist nonsense you find in Tabloids with reason and compassion and humanity.
Giving a copy of "Race and Reality: What Everyone Should Know About Our Biological Diversity" By Guy P. Harrison, to your local school or hell, your next door neighbour or your family members, as a gift, would do far, far, far, far, far, far, far more to combating racism than launching an "attack" against a manifesto already derided by mainstream society. Breivik's manifesto is a mess of illogical, specious claims - it's actually quite well written from a grammatical perspective, Breivik obviously knew his English - but the actual content is sexist, racist, unscientific, emotional, paranoid garbage.
The best thing we can all do about Breivik is to IGNORE HIM. He obviously wants to go down in History as a Martyr to some deranged cause. He wants, and believes, that his name will be revered in households 60 years from now across Norway. Let's prove him wrong, and the first step is to forget his name.
But we've no guarantee that this is a united effort on behalf of anon. Looking at it, I'd go so far as to guess it isn't. Reasons being as follows:KrabbiPatty said:
1) "We do not forgive murderers, we do not forget the victims" is a tacky rewrite of "We do not forgive. We do not forget. Expect us". Anon has never belittled their calling card by rewriting it in reference to a specific pursuit before.
2) Anon stand for freedom of information, cats and lulz. This is too self righteous to be lulzy, and I don't have to explain the other 2 causes.
3) This is summer. Most /b/tards abandon the board or restrict their time there to lurking because of the influx of summerfags and having better things to do in the summer. Contrary to popular belief, they are humans who have been known to go outside and joking that they don't won't change that.
4) The entirety of /b/ could not give a shit about punishing murderers. Whereas they certainly aren't as common at the moment due to summer, some of /b/'s favourite thread topics are gore threads, fringe market porn and racism. They make jokes about the holocaust, Casey Anthony and 9/11. The only time they adopt a pro life moral high ground is for the afore mentioned cats.
On a side note, calm down. Passionate debate on the internet comes across as impotent and often comical.
SmashLovesTitanQuest said:
The original manifesto is still on the internet.
The original manifesto is accessible to anyone.
The original manifesto has not been changed in any way.
Parody manifestos have been published.
These are altered copies of the original.
Restricting their publication would be a violation of free speech.
If the parodies are more popular, their search engine ranking will improve.
This improvement means that the original is harder to find.
Harder to find on google =/= censored. That's like saying facebook has censored myspace over the last few years.
I honestly don't know how to make my case any simpler.
Most of Anonymous left /b/ a long, long time ago. The point being made is that the two are no longer as related as they once were.Deamon Toss said:
Largely I agree. Just one thing, the Guy Fawkes masks thing comes from V For Vendetta, it's not random at all.KrabbiPatty said:
EDIT: Reread the article, seems a little different to how I thought. That's not quite the same as straight up censorship, but it seems a little pointless and juvenile.
Here's a tip Anon: Rather than trying to destroy Breivik's manifesto, instead, use your collective computing power to spread a counter manifesto that highlights the absurdities of Breivik's manifesto. Use your internet abilities to promote and shine a light on anti-racist blogs (there are plenty of well written anti-racist blogs on the internet if you are willing to look for them).
Rather than try to suppress or destroy what you find distasteful (which is a hopeless challenge - just look at Mein Kampf, which, as garbage a book as it is, still sells surprisingly well, sadly), you should do your best to PROMOTE anti-racist teachings. I'm not much of a man for proverbs, but an Old Chinese proverb comes to mind: Rather than curse the darkness, light a candle.
Rather than try to suppress or destroy what you find distasteful (which is a hopeless challenge - just look at Mein Kampf, which, as garbage a book as it is, still sells surprisingly well, sadly), you should do your best to PROMOTE anti-racist teachings. I'm not much of a man for proverbs, but an Old Chinese proverb comes to mind: Rather than curse the darkness, light a candle.
Still manages to pull a few threads out of your rant. I'm happy with that.KrabbiPatty said:
If you'd get off your soapbox for two seconds, you'd see this for what it is. It's a fail op. It's got lulz potential, I'll give it that, but a single pastebin post and the attention of a journalist with ADD on a slow news day does not an active operation make.
At most, this is two or three circle-jerk idiots jumping the gun and trying to get the hive on board with their Totally Awesome Idea. All signs point to it getting panned universally. So your histrionics aren't really necessary, no matter how adorable they are.
(As I type this, the MSNBC crew is talking about how posh Norwegian prisons are, because apparently we've become so hateful and envious of people who have responded to an attack from within so gracefully without vengeful malice overpowering them)KrabbiPatty said:
Ok - silly example. I'm not willing to put on my argumentative A-game for the Escapist forums generally speaking. Not that I slouch, but it's an internet forum, as you've said.
I'm more concerned about other aspects of this action (like the attention it will call, unduly, to this work and get people thinking and talking about it when previously it was more foot-note level awareness) than the potential of a shift in the politics of an Internet hacker group on the topic of free expression and anti-censorship. If they've been compromised ideologically by this action, that's their problem. Until they get bigger teeth, I'm pretty sure we won't be falling under some Anon-world-domination New World Order or anything as ridiculous.
On Censorship: The reason people stand up so vehemently against censorship is because it is one of those damned logically flawed but practically observable "slippery slopes" that large factions with high levels of influence and/or power to enforce their preferences will eventually smother the ideas that will somehow benefit the greater whole. That's the spirit of the thing.
I do not, personally, believe that this manifesto qualifies (though I admit a general ignorance of more than it's subject matter being based in racial and religious opinions of the writer, who attacked his fellow citizens to call attention to its ideas). Further, I don't (as expressed earlier) think that Anon qualifies as such a body as to be feared for their "censorship" powers. It is, after all, only the Internet they can reasonably effect on large scale, and, as you point out, that's rather moot now isn't it?
So I don't, exactly, understand what has gotten you into such a foam over this.
Addendum on swearing: I curse like a sailor in my daily life, but I find they flow into speech patterns so much that they don't effect content, whereas in written form they provide little more than a distraction, being so common place and yet so glaring (thanks, as you mentioned, to society).
Thank you for the compliment, but I don't know what "the Chans" is, unless it's that 4chan thing that people always bring up with Anon. I've never been to 4Chan (though I see a lot of people here reference it) so no worries about them damaging me in some way. I stick to my own corners of the Internet, unless I'm doing research.
Excuse me, what original copy?Sougo said:
The parodies will devalue the reliability and cover-up the existence of the original copy. you are taking the meaning of "censorship" word-for-word and not applying the consequences it will have because of the different versions.
It's very clear that Annon seek to put words in his mouth thus trying censor what he is trying to say.
I don't suppose people have never mistaken Landover Baptist for an actual Christian website?
This would be brilliant, but will never happen. The only reason Anonymous does anything is for attention, and that wouldn't get them much.Korolev said:
Yeah, except there's always going to be a power structure at the top, where the decisions get made. There's a big difference between an anon who co-ordinates DDOS attacks, decides targets, looks for SQL vulnerabilities, and some script kiddie off /b/ who thought it'd be cool to install LOIC. Anonymous the hacker group is very real, and probably no more than a few dozen, if that. Anonymous the ideal has thousands of members. Thankfully those thousands don't have a clue how to hack.Deamon Toss said: