Another Incident in Portland

Iron

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4chan trolled people by memeing the OK symbol and milk into hate symbols just to show how ridiculous this is, yet people are still taking it seriously.
 

Iron

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Please do not troll.
Including white supremacist groups who are using them seriously as hate symbols.
Who told you that, Washigton Post? Jew York Times? What are these groups, "The Base", "Boogalo Boys"? Shitty honey-pots
 

Eacaraxe

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I do not disagree that there was an earlier incarnation of police that did indeed deal in the business you described, we are all too familiar with union busting and slave catching, but there was also a point at which police was organized and rules were laid down, where another purpose was stated.
Literally fucking when might this "reform and re-corruption" might have happened?

Police forces were slave catchers. When major cities started creating police forces, such as we saw in New York violent white supremacist street gangs, and political machine enforcers, got the badges. Later private security such as the Pinkertons were added to their ranks, and they were used as strikebreakers and union-busters. When the Prohibition started they went back to their "older" role as nativist thugs, except this time around with a more generalized purpose of violently suppressing the poor during the Depression.

During both World Wars police forces acted as political commissars domestically, violently suppressing protest and jailing political dissidents. And they would go back to that role during Vietnam, along with violently suppressing civil rights protest.

Then the con of the day became mass incarceration. Then it became the surveillance state as empowered by the war on drugs, and war on terror. Then it became to be a paramilitary force to violently suppress protest -- and not just protest against police brutality, but against socioeconomic inequity and labor rights (Occupy), and natural resource management and unrestricted corporate power (Standing Rock).

Please, if you want to cleave to this utter fucking delusion, please entertain it for yourself by explaining when this "golden age" of transparency and equitable treatment by police forces you seem to think vindicates the very notion of policing in the United States, might have possibly been.

We are no longer executing people in the town square with legal consent, we are not allowing authorities to make a spectacle of punishment..I think the known alternative is also quite frightening. Perhaps swing from torture and punishment as a spectacle was too hard and landed us in another mess, but it proves that change is possible.
If you're comparing the contemporary CJ system to any sort of inquisitorial system in pursuit of rehabilitative or punitive justice, you're already improperly framing the issue and predestined to get incorrect conclusions because you're working from incorrect premises. Compare it instead two these two things and you'll get a lot more accurate answers as to why the courts and cops act as they do:

1. Alternative taxation -- to compensate for lost revenue to municipal, county, and state governments in the wake of neoliberal tax cuts.

2. Creating and sustaining a compulsory permanent underclass labor force -- to circumvent the 13th Amendment in a way that is easy to manufacture consent for.

3. Political disenfranchisement -- in a way that circumvents the 15th Amendment but simultaneously applies predominantly to aforementioned compulsory labor force and other undesirable for whom felony offenses can be manufactured easily.

The contemporary criminal justice system is about criminals and justice, the same way the Holy Roman Empire was holy, Roman, or an empire.
 
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Iron

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the same way the Holy Roman Empire was holy, Roman, or an empire.
Cringe.
1600180715836.png

Prison and forced labor replacing slavery is very much an interesting aspect of modern america, but dude, the way you write it, it's just, uh, cringe.
 

dreng3

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Literally fucking when might this "reform and re-corruption" might have happened?

Police forces were slave catchers. When major cities started creating police forces, such as we saw in New York violent white supremacist street gangs, and political machine enforcers, got the badges. Later private security such as the Pinkertons were added to their ranks, and they were used as strikebreakers and union-busters. When the Prohibition started they went back to their "older" role as nativist thugs, except this time around with a more generalized purpose of violently suppressing the poor during the Depression.
American police forces and even then only some of them. Many nations have police and that didn't spring from slave catching or union busting. When police changed form being a largely private entity to being a public one the intention was for police to have a different purpose, perhaps that didn't go well, but the purpose wasn't as evil as you insist.

If you're comparing the contemporary CJ system to any sort of inquisitorial system in pursuit of rehabilitative or punitive justice, you're already improperly framing the issue and predestined to get incorrect conclusions because you're working from incorrect premises. Compare it instead two these two things and you'll get a lot more accurate answers as to why the courts and cops act as they do:

1. Alternative taxation -- to compensate for lost revenue to municipal, county, and state governments in the wake of neoliberal tax cuts.

2. Creating and sustaining a compulsory permanent underclass labor force -- to circumvent the 13th Amendment in a way that is easy to manufacture consent for.

3. Political disenfranchisement -- in a way that circumvents the 15th Amendment but simultaneously applies predominantly to aforementioned compulsory labor force and other undesirable for whom felony offenses can be manufactured easily.
The first point is entirely delusional and I won't bother to address it. Your second point bears some merit but I don't think the notion of prisoners providing labour is unreasonable, if overseen correctly which is the crux of the matter for modern prison. Still better than having hands chopped off or being poured with molten lead.
I partly agree with the notion of political disenfranchisement, but that is solely because prison, as an institution, came about at a weird time in history. Democracy was not entirely the norm at the birth of the prison system, and the way we judge guilt and culpability changed in a way that seemed to suggest that those we imprison should in fact not be considered members of society on the same level as everyone else. In hindsight such a conclusion is obviously wrong, but I will reiterate that the solution is not to burn the system to the ground but to reform it. Not only because the support for a complete dismantling of the penal system and police will never be there to a degree where it can be achieved, but also because any such attempt will lead to a loss of life on what will most certainly be an unprecedented scale, while furthermore removing any semblance of equality there might exist. Anarchy benefits only the strong and without systems to balance power there will be anarchy.



4chan trolled people by memeing the OK symbol and milk into hate symbols just to show how ridiculous this is, yet people are still taking it seriously.
If you think pretend to be an asshole just to get a rise out of people is fun you aren't pretending to be an asshole. 4chan is full of assholes and should be ignored on the best of days and burned to the ground on the worst.
 

Iron

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If you think pretend to be an asshole just to get a rise out of people is fun you aren't pretending to be an asshole. 4chan is full of assholes and should be ignored on the best of days and burned to the ground on the worst.
It's fucking hilarious.
 

Eacaraxe

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American police forces and even then only some of them.
No, all of them, and stop trying to change the subject by throwing out red herrings in the form of non-domestic police forces.

When police changed form being a largely private entity to being a public one the intention was for police to have a different purpose, perhaps that didn't go well, but the purpose wasn't as evil as you insist.
So if you think this actually happened explain when, where, why, and how it did. Ball's in your court.

The first point is entirely delusional and I won't bother to address it.
Oh well in that case I will.














Shall I continue? Delusional, indeed. The only person here delusional is you, by way of burying your head in the sand.

Your second point bears some merit but I don't think the notion of prisoners providing labour is unreasonable, if overseen correctly which is the crux of the matter for modern prison.
Which is precisely why convict leading became the sensation that swept the nation only as debate over emancipation intensified to the point of civil war, and exploded after the passage of the 13th Amendment, and seemed to be an overwhelmingly Southern thing (right there with felon disenfranchisement), right?

You're outright engaging in neoslavery apologia at this point.

Still better than having hands chopped off or being poured with molten lead.
Relative privation. Try again.

...prison, as an institution, came about at a weird time in history.
By "a weird time" relevant to this conversation, you mean right when we had a metric buttload of recently-freed slaves, who on their best days the nicest people up north tolerated with mild disdain, and right at the height of industrialization and economic expansion necessitating a readily available captive work force to do dangerous menial labor at practically zero cost.

Democracy was not entirely the norm at the birth of the prison system...
Well yeah of course, we had all those black people running about free, god only knows what would have happened if they started voting and participating in democracy! Democracy was new to them, they might well have voted for the wrong people and we couldn't have that! That's why we had to pass poll taxes, literacy tests, grandfather clauses, disenfranchise felons, separate (but equal!) precincts and ballot, and the like!
 
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Gethsemani

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The contemporary criminal justice system is about criminals and justice, the same way the Holy Roman Empire was holy, Roman, or an empire.
Nitpickingly: The HRE was blessed as such by the Pope, which is were the Holy comes from. It was Roman since it sprung out of the claims of Charlemagne, who had been styled Emperor of Rome by the Pope (the Carolingian Empire encompassed much of what was traditional West Rome and later Popes would re-affirm the HRE's status as West Romes successor state). It was an Empire because it was the single largest country in Europe both in terms of size and population.

The gradual decline of the HRE, particularly after the Italian states seceded and the 30 years war, means that it becomes less of all three as time moved on, but it was decidedly all three at its inception and maintained at least two of three qualifiers until the very end of its existence (being Holy and an Empire).
 

tstorm823

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Moving beyond the half-truths (at best) that make up your argument, if you abolish public policing you're only going to invite countless unaccountable private forces into existence, the exact things you condemn police for being vaguely similar to.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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You can sue a private entity and actually have it hurt them. You could actually sue individual officers.

Suing the cops only shafts the non-cop portion of the city budget.
 

lil devils x

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You can sue a private entity and actually have it hurt them. You could actually sue individual officers.

Suing the cops only shafts the non-cop portion of the city budget.
You're as likely to get a dime from suing an individual homeless person as suing the individual officers as they are not paid enough to have money. AS it is they can only afford to live in the Ghetto on their pay. We need to pay them more THEN sue them? LOL
 

TheMysteriousGX

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You're as likely to get a dime from suing an individual homeless person as suing the individual officers as they are not paid enough to have money. AS it is they can only afford to live in the Ghetto on their pay. We need to pay them more THEN sue them? LOL
Police officers are very well paid in the United States. They usually commute in from the suburbs to patrol cities, which causes/is a symptom a significant number of problems with police
 

dreng3

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You can sue a private entity and actually have it hurt them. You could actually sue individual officers.

Suing the cops only shafts the non-cop portion of the city budget.
Sadly that's where qualified immunity comes into play. You'd need a very special kind of judge to even get the case heard and the cop would need the dumbest lawyer alive to lose.
 

lil devils x

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Police officers are very well paid in the United States. They usually commute in from the suburbs to patrol cities, which causes/is a symptom a significant number of problems with police
The officers here are only paid enough to live in the Ghetto, so I am not sure why you think that. The officers here cannot even afford to live here, and this IS the suburbs.

Law Enforcement Officer
21 openings
Average salary
Rockwall, TX
$35,098per yea


Deputy Sheriff
1 openings
Average salary
Rockwall, TX
$41,157per year


Correctional Officer
61 openings
Average salary
Rockwall, TX
$37,359per year


The median income in Rockwall, TX is $96,663 and the median home value is $251,642.

You're not going to get much by suing them. Here, they REALLY do need their free coffee and donuts.
 

TheMysteriousGX

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The officers here are only paid enough to live in the Ghetto, so I am not sure why you think that. The officers here cannot even afford to live here, and this IS the suburbs.

Law Enforcement Officer
21 openings
Average salary
Rockwall, TX
$35,098per yea


Deputy Sheriff
1 openings
Average salary
Rockwall, TX
$41,157per year


Correctional Officer
61 openings
Average salary
Rockwall, TX
$37,359per year


The median income in Rockwall, TX is $96,663 and the median home value is $251,642.

You're not going to get much by suing them. Here, they REALLY do need their free coffee and donuts.
The Rockwell Police Department says their pay scale starts at $60k a year: http://www.rockwallpolice.org/documents/pay_scale_10_18.pdf
The County Sheriff's department says $45k for a recruit and $56k when they make deputy:

Which means they make more than Rockwall's median per-capita income of $40k, and more than half of Rockwall's median household income of $90k.

They're doing just fine. Solidly middle class, going into upper after seniority kicks in. Make more than my roommate and I do combined, while paying the same amount for rent. That's hardly "the Ghetto", fuck's sake. And if that's not enough to support their lifestyle, they can get hitched or pick up a roommate like the rest of us fucking plebs.
If I conducted myself on the job in such a way that it left people injured or dead without a *fantastic* goddamned reason, I'd be fired immediately and sued into oblivion. Cops generally don't even get fired, and any civil suits don't get paid out of cop budgets.
 
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TheMysteriousGX

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Sadly that's where qualified immunity comes into play. You'd need a very special kind of judge to even get the case heard and the cop would need the dumbest lawyer alive to lose.
That's what I mean: private contractors don't get to use "qualified immunity" as a defense, just like how "private military contractors" (mercenaries) don't get to use the "you can't sue the military" defense. Suing their organization would actively harm their profit margins instead of you suing the city and the city cutting money from schools or whatever.

I loathe the idea of private police for a wide variety of reasons, but somehow, at least hypothetically, they could be held more accountable than our current nightmare version of police
 

lil devils x

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The Rockwell Police Department says their pay scale starts at $60k a year: http://www.rockwallpolice.org/documents/pay_scale_10_18.pdf
The County Sheriff's department says $45k for a recruit and $56k when they make deputy:

Which means they make more than Rockwall's median per-capita income of $40k, and more than half of Rockwall's median household income of $90k.

They're doing just fine. Solidly middle class, going into upper after seniority kicks in. Make more than my roommate and I do combined, while paying the same amount for rent. That's hardly "the Ghetto", fuck's sake. And if that's not enough to support their lifestyle, they can get hitched or pick up a roommate like the rest of us fucking plebs.
If I conducted myself on the job in such a way that it left people injured or dead without a *fantastic* goddamned reason, I'd be fired immediately and sued into oblivion. Cops generally don't even get fired, and any civil suits don't get paid out of cop budgets.
If you are able to sue them, they will not be working anymore, and chances are there is no way they are going to have savings or any assets with that low of pay. They may be able to rent a cheap one bedroom apartment, but they certainly are not going to save any money that way and when they are out of work for whatever they did that you are suing them for, you may as well be suing a homeless person. Cops DO get fired if the courts rule against them. Just usually that doesn't happen if they can bury disciplinary reports without other action taken. This being a right to work state, Unions do not have the teeth they do in other states.

I also think you are underestimating the cost of living. Why is their pay listed so low on the other site? Either way, Where exactly can they afford to support a family here making less than 70K? How much of their income is expected to be paid in rent? They aren't going to buy a home for that. Then when you look at things like them paying child support and other obligations, they wind up moving back in with their parents like the cop that was yelling at the other cop for putting his laundry in the parking lot when they pulled over his mom doing his laundry.
 
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crimson5pheonix

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That's what I mean: private contractors don't get to use "qualified immunity" as a defense, just like how "private military contractors" (mercenaries) don't get to use the "you can't sue the military" defense. Suing their organization would actively harm their profit margins instead of you suing the city and the city cutting money from schools or whatever.

I loathe the idea of private police for a wide variety of reasons, but somehow, at least hypothetically, they could be held more accountable than our current nightmare version of police
You kid yourself.

You know if that's what happened, the first laws passed would be to make private contractors "performing work on behalf of the US or local government" (which would effectively be all their work, even if they're charging you for breathing in the nice part of town) have qualified immunity and establishing a government slush fund to help them in their new role as a public service. They'd privatize the police giving all the worst aspects of privatization while keeping all the worst aspects of a public body.